Competitive DBD: can it work?

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Livion
Livion Member Posts: 160

So I love playing competitive in any game and in DBD I don't have other choice really since there isn't a casual mode, Wich is annoying when you try out a meme build and then get hit by -insert killer/survivor meta- but that is besides the point.

I know that DBD has 0 chance of having an official eSports scene since the last time they tried it was a fiasco (it was a really different game but regardless of it there a million mistakes made)

For starters: a competitive game is balanced (mostly) without any extra rule, you play the game and try to win, but with DBD you have to put some heavy restrictions to both parties.

The best way to approach it would be by just making it so no one can bring addons (or maybe only yellow/green) but if we use this ruleset then at bare bones the best killer by far is the nurse, so unless you want have Nurse vs the world you have to add another rule that dictates killer restrictions, so you are forced to play something different every time.

A lot of my points come from the video up above (shout outs to Ardetha love that guy) I recommend you watch it if you are interested in the topic.

Comments

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,450
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    One thing I've come to realize more and more about DbD is that its a guessing game. Bring distortion and if you hit a killer with aura reads, tons of value, if the killer brings no aura reads its a wasted perk. Healing skills become useless against a plague. Mindbreaker grows in power the more exhaustion perks there are. Etc.

    The doesn't mean the game is unbalanced, that's a different issue, it just means sometimes one side or the other has a huge advantage over the other based on guessing correctly. If competitive DbD played a season of games instead of tournament, that would even out (not that a season of esports would be practical for other reasons). Thus because its tournament style they try and reduce the randomness of the game, which leads to knock on effects requiring more and more rules.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,073
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    Devs want both the casual and competitive audience since selling cosmetics and dlcs to more people is always better. That comes at the cost of not fully catering to both groups when it comes to game balance.


  • Neaxolotl
    Neaxolotl Member Posts: 929
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    This game is already as competitive as it gets

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,555
    edited April 14
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    It "can", however, it would require significant changes to the games balance that I don't think they'd do. You would need the game balanced from the top down for good vs good players instead of what we have now, which is bottom up, bad vs bad player balance.

    The astronomical amount of rules that have to be put in place to attempt to have it balanced in a good vs good scenarios for these comp much should illustrate how unbalanced it is at the top right now. The annoying part is many people who don't have as much experience in the game will watch these tournaments and be like "see, it is pretty balanced" while not realizing all the ridiculous rule sets and alterations that were put in place to force that balance but are non existent in normal queuing. To be hyperbolic, it's like seeing Myers get a 4k in a tournament after you made all the survivors hop on one leg and tied their hands behind their backs. Not quite representative of Myers viability.

    The other issue with comp DBD is the game is still centered around kills instead of hooks. This is a core flaw in the game right now. This flaws the comp seen before we even start. It's not fun to watch killers just tunnel someone out for a chance at winning. It's not fun and shows no skill. The game would need to be focused around hooks instead of kills to make it more fun to watch for the casual viewer. Not to mention actually more fun for the people playing the game.

  • OnryosTapeRentals
    OnryosTapeRentals Member Posts: 785
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    Comp DbD can and does work (see DbD League), but it requires a very artificial environment and heaps and heaps of rules, bans, and restrictions to do so.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 566
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    No, not without the mountains of restrictions present in current competitive play. I'm still fine with competitions though, those are fun even with all the rules.

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 1,232
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    If it is introduced I doubt it will be as fleshed out as it needs to be to function

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 1,658
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  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    i love comp scene of dvd, i watch DbDLeague tournaments regularly, but as you noticed, the environment for comp matches is pretty artificial and there are plenty restrictions made in order to balance every aspect out Now, problem with this in the very core game ia the fact that many players won't like it. Not because "omg sweaty comp fest", but because classic pub player will be worse and will complain a lot more than they are now.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,259
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    What specific things are banned from comp? What about them is broken? I’m just genuinely curious.

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 632
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    some killers cana use every perk they want, some killers like nurse can´t use X amount of slowdowns, some survivors can´t bring a full stack build, survivors can´t use like, 4 adrenalines 4 dead hards 4 lithes 4 DS etc, some killers can´t use some addons etc, it depends

  • KazRen
    KazRen Member Posts: 185
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    I think it can but it would be pretty hard to do.

  • Optx
    Optx Member Posts: 50
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    It works as is. The game will never be balanced enough to avoid restrictions altogether.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,259
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  • Hexonthebeach
    Hexonthebeach Member Posts: 374
    edited April 15
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    I don't like to be over competitive in dbd but I do understand the player who like it.

    I think dbd should have a competitive game mode. A 1vs1 mode and a custom game mode where you can restrict the perks and allow other changes for comp.

  • Neaxolotl
    Neaxolotl Member Posts: 929
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    To be honest, there is no need for balance to be competitive, just that it has to be fair with both side

    So as long as both side has same map and same killer, it works

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,533
    edited April 15
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    The last Community Cup format where a team of 5 take on another team of 5 at the same time, with the same map and choices of killers looks like it'd be a lot of fun for a proper ranked mode.

    I have been secretly hoping players would be inclined to get a comp scene going, like the matchmaking tournament websites of Counter Strike...

    It'd make a cool event at least to be able to enter a mini 5 game tournament with a team every now and again.

  • Livion
    Livion Member Posts: 160
    edited April 15
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  • Katzengott
    Katzengott Member Posts: 1,205
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    Sadly DBD became more and more about advantages and knowlegde.

    Survs hold shift W, rush gens, pre-drop, bodyblock when they need to and killers just camp and tunnel their objective aswell.

    Also don't forget the big RNG factor the game has. If i would want to show off my "skill", i def wouldn't pick DBD for it.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    For survivors:

    -sabo related perks

    -luck related perks

    -RNG perks in general

    -boon perks

    -genrush perks (literally genrushing)

    -aura reading perks

    -Reassurance

    -Deliverance, Unbreakable, DH and some more perks are banned against every killer except Nurse, Blight and Spirit

    -also, stacking perks is not allowed and depending on killer, you get limited to less perk slots

    For killer:

    -aura reading perks (excluding Eruption)

    -obsession shifting perks

    -chase perks that make pallets worthless in some cases

    -gen blocking perks

    -killer specific restrictions slowdowns wise (only for Blight, Nurse and Spirit

    There is much more to cover up here, but consider this as a short version.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,450
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    It varies from tournament to tournament and region to region. Hens just had a video up about this that compared the differences between Japan and European/US comp playstyles (Japan killers tunnel less, play more control playstyle, hug tech not a big thing, self care viewed as S tier perk instead of garbage).

    Self unhooking, including AFC, not including deliverance, is banned (both regions)

    Map is known by both sides

    Killer is known in western tournaments (usually) but not Japan

    Hatch is set in western tournaments

    Japan bans emotes

    Japan prohibits hex cleansing until at least 1 gen is complete

    Western tournaments you cannot bring the same perk more than once on the survivor side

    Both sides limit survivor items, Japan you are allowed to open chests

    Western tournaments usually limit all killers to yellow or lower addons

    Win conditions are different

    -

    In terms of what perks are banned, I've actually looked for a list and been unable to find one that is recent. The problem is that what is banned changes as the game updates and each tournament has their own variations.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,382
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    Not as long as the devs don't decide whether or not they actually want DBD to be a competitive game. They try to make DBD more accessible by lowering the skill ceiling of survivors and killers, which is makes the game more casual in turn but they also remove "techs" and balance perks, addons, items and killers around a set benchmark (60% kill rate), which makes the game more competitive.

    However, these are mutually exclusive. You cannot have 1 game mode that is both casual and competitive. Casual players won't like a game that has a billion things to learn and get good with while more competitive spirited players will not like having their skill ceiling cut. Sometimes you make both unhappy by adding or removing a certain mechanic. One such example was SkyBilly. It was considered to be incredibly niche and fun to watch but it was something very hard to pull off, that if done correctly could theoretically give you the upper hand.

    If they want the game to be for everyone then there is no way around a second game mode. One for casual players, the other for competitive ones. Both would need an extra set of rules that prevent the misuse of it.

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
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    Because some people enjoy the competitive aspect of games? Comp dbd isn't hurting anyone i don't see why you can't just let people play it.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,098
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    They put killers into tiers and place perk and item restrictions from there. In general, perks and mechanics that introduce RNG are banned. Every killer is assigned a map. You'll never see Ghostface outside of Lerys, for example. Dredge is always on Midwich, so on and so forth. Survivors are allowed 1 instance of each perk across the entire team. Killer perk restrictions depend on the strength of the killer.

    A tier 1 killer would be something like Nurse. They'll be more restricted in terms of slowdown perks, but the survivors will be less restricted in terms of perks and items.

    A killer like Wraith will have far fewer perk restrictions, but the survivors typically won't be allowed exhaustion perks.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,098
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    There has been one notable one with no limits so far. Kill rate was roughly 50%.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,156
    edited April 15
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    Its not esports that is the problem. Esports was around a long time. It is skill based matchmaking that is the problem. And not just with DBD, its an industry problem.

    Back in my day, there was no skill based matchmaking. You just joined a random CS server or Quake Clan Wars server or random WC3 DotA game, and your teammates and opponents were whoever they happened to be. You queued up for a match of CoD and you just got matched with whoever you got matched with. If you got destroyed by some really good player, you didn't complain, whine or cry about it, you thought "damn that guy is really good". If you were playing CoD and a guy was destroying everyone in the lobby dropping nukes every game, you generally WANTED to be in that lobby to watch what the guy was doing so you could learn their tricks, or you'd pay attention to the weapons he was using or what perks etc.

    If you were that guy, people would compliment you on your skills and sing your praises for being really good. And if you got tired of losing to the guy? You just left the lobby and found another match. Maybe in that new lobby it would be you destroying everyone. Maybe you would take some of the things you learned from the previous lobby and put it to the test in this new one. Maybe you'd start unlocking all the attachments and perks that guy was using in that lobby so you could give it a try. Yeah, you'd probably lose a bunch of games because you never used the UMP before and you don't have attachments. No big deal, you'd grind out a few games and get them so you can start using it.

    All of that changed when skill based matchmaking came out. Back then it was called "Trueskill". People started really caring about that number next to their name when it was called trueskill. Before that, the number was just a number that you could grind out if you spent enough time on the game, because the number was usually just XP or some other mechanic. If you were good, it went up faster, but even if you weren't, it still went up every game. But now, people started getting upset when other players in the lobbies were really good and destroying them, because it meant that the number next to their name would go down instead of up. Now suddenly people wanted "fairness" to trump everything in terms of matches. Because if the match wasn't perceived as "fair" then they would start blaming the game for that number next to their name going down. And if they started blaming the game, they'd stop playing, and they'd stop buying. So now the developers honed on on "fairness" against all other qualities.

    Once fairness reigned supreme, it meant that when some cool "thing" or "tech" (as we call them in dbd) was discovered, it had to be patched.

    Gone were the days of playing MvC2, and having an Iron man do an infinite combo on you and thinking "damn how did you do that?! That was amazing!" Why? well because an infinite combo would be unfair, so we can't have those, gotta patch them out.

    Gone were the days of being able to stack killstreaks together in CoD because people found out they can camp good spots, keep safe, and work themselves up to a chopper, and then be able to get a nuke if they focused on getting kills and not dying instead of going for the objectives. Why? well because someone getting 25 kills in a row was seen as "unfair".

    Gone were the days of someone figuring out that the Model 1887 in CoD actually had some decent range, and if you dual wield them, it made it so the weakness of it being a single pump action shotgun was mitigated, meaning you could one tap someone if you had good aim. Can't do that because being one tapped would be "unfair" Now the TTK is significantly longer in these games and you have to spend half a clip to kill someone.

    Gone were the days of playing Quake, and bunny hopping around a map and using rocket jumps to fly around and timing when the armor and health would spawn so you can show up at the exact right time and gain control of the map. That would be unfair, because bunny hopping was hard, and timing weapons was hard, so we had to add timers for you, and give you auto-bhop.

    Gone were the days of playing Halo, and starting with the Pistol, the best OVERALL weapon in the game, that allowed you to take on anyone assuming you could outaim them. Despite the fact that, the shotgun was better at close range, the rockets were better at mid range, and the sniper was better at long range. The pistol could do it all, decently, but in the hands of a skilled player was a deadly weapon. But spawning with a weapon so strong is "unfair" after all.

    Gone were the days of playing Halo 2, and having a ton of glitches and "techs" like BXR and BXBB and quad shot. Because those are hard techniques to pull off and not everyone can do it. Making it really "unfair" to those who couldn't.

    And lastly. Gone were the days of Super Smash Bros Melee, where you had crazy techniques like wavedashing, and L cancelling that allowed combos to exist, turning this "party game" into a serious and viable competitive sport that was really interesting to watch. Instead we make it so you can just randomly "trip" in the next game for no reason, and remove all of those things so that we can emphasize the "party" game, because after all, wavedashing and L Cancelling are hard, and not everyone can do it, making it really "unfair" for them.

    I could continue to go on, but i feel you should get the point at this point. The pursuit of "fairness" and skill based matchmaking has created a situation where games are stale now, everything is the same, and everything is a constant struggle-fest where everyone is doing everything they can to win. Instead of just joining a CoD lobby to have a little fun and mess around with a shotgun, or mess around with care package and maybe get a lucky chopper after only a couple of kills. At the end of the day, you didn't care if you "won" the match, because you still got XP, you still leveled up, you still earned attachments, you still earned perks, you still earned prestige and you still earned achievements. just a little slower than if you had won the match.

    This pursuit of "fairness" didn't exist when your "rank" was just tied to how long you played the game for (I.E. CoD prestige) because you were just grinding a higher number and if you were really good, you got it faster, but eventually everyone would get it. Once that number started getting called "Trueskill" people took it as an insult when that number was low, and they started caring. Thus fairness became the supreme god that every developer would continue to push for, without realizing that they were slowly killing their games.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 82
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    yeah but, the thing with CS is that you had unlimited amount of pub servers with various modes (knife only, zombies, deathmatch, classic, surf, deathrun), while in dbd you have just regional servers with possibility of custom matches, but you truly have to manually find people for those.

    And CS 1.6 with all those servers was literally what we can call a party game that didn't need SBMM at all

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,156
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    CS is one example, CoD you "queued up" and you just got put in lobbies with whoever you got put with.

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,764
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    An asymmetric game can never truly be balanced by its inherent design and even more so when it is RNG based.

    However can you compete in it? Sure, so long as you understand it will never truly be balanced.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 898
    edited April 16
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    "Competitive" i. e. tournament DbD already is a thing and has been for years, and it works well and attracts thousands of viewers. It has in fact only been notably growing and improving in recent years, in terms of viewership, organization and viewing quality, level of competition, prize money, and more. That doesn't mean there aren't problems left, but we don't need to have a debate on whether it can work, it already factually does. And to note, the biggest problem it has is that BHVR - despite past assertions to the contrary - does next to nothing to improve or promote this sphere of their game. Not even the very essentials such as better spectating features are being implemented, not only neglecting to improve anything about it for years and years but constantly introducing new spectator bugs that can at times make it downright impossible to follow a match, and then taking ages to fix them, if they ever do.

    Without going into the competitive viability of DbD much (I have done so plenty in the past, and most of the words would be wasted here anyway; it suffices to say that there is an impressive consistency with which certain players and teams excel and succeed in the competition and tournament scene of this game which proves that the people who proclaim that the game is too RNG and luck-based have no real clue what they're talking about), I will echo a simple truth that @Neaxolotl has brought up earlier in this thread and that is one of the most blatant things people tend to gloss over: both teams play both sides, this establishes an inherent competitive balance and symmetry in the format, the game does not have to be symmetrical or balanced in terms of the "sides" because both teams equally benefit and suffer from any such potential imbalances. The primary reason why tournaments tend to ban and restrict so many things on both sides is that they want to promote certain more engaging gameplay, that is more compelling to play and watch. Of course some things are banned because they would increase the luck factor of the game (attempting to unhook yourself, for instance), and others because they could hamper the competitive viability (either because they are so oppressive that they would be expected to yield a lot of tied matches (e. g. Background Player, Power Struggle and Flip-Flop for survivors, which can too reliably deny hooks), or because they don't promote skilled gameplay (e. g. Ultimate Weapon on killers, which replaces 50% or more of the need for "game sense", among other issues)). I will say that I don't agree with all bans and restrictions we have in popular tournaments (annulling the anti-facecamp mechanic, for instance), and it can be pointed out that the competitive scene is still a pretty insular community, with a really rather small club of "comp royalty" that have too much of a sway on how things are handled, which is also in some senses holding back the scene. But that's to be expected because the people playing in the scene are also literally the ones creating it, as there is no support from the developers.

    I think tournament DbD is at a turning point or threshold now where it has garnered a critical mass of people interested in both playing and watching, as well as attracted more and more content creators as notice has been taken that some of the stand-out tournament players have been able to grow their streams significantly off the back of their reputation in the scene. Big streamers like Otz, Hens and Tofu have also been driving forces behind the growth. I think if ever there was a time for BHVR to try and light a fire under this development (or to provide sparks that can ignite explosive developments), it would be now. Hens is currently organizing a tournament with a lot of hype behind it, as recent shuffles in the top teams have created a really exciting field where while there are one or two clear favourites (Eternal being the #1 favourite), there are at least 5 teams all of which can realistically take it home. The prize pool is also around $4000 or so. Imagine if BHVR had matched the prize pool provided by the community, as well as promoted the tournament on its social media and maybe hosted its twitch stream from theirs. All of this would have been easy and effortless for them, and yet it could have been a monumental occurrence for the tournament scene. They wouldn't even have to be associated with or responsible for anything to do with these tournaments and as such not risk any brand damage as they might have with that Space eSports tournament, they would just act in a promoting fashion, highlighting the community's efforts.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
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    If this game is competitive then an we get a real ranked (and unranked) mode(s)

    If it's not then why have Grades (ranks) involved in the first place… I know it's not relevant to the SBMM we have now but still

    IMO we do need to split the community in order to have a better game

    Have the Devs come up with how they want to do it… then complain about it cause it wasn't what we had in mind

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,592
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    When ever I see competetive DBD I cant help but laugh. I dont know how these people can take this game this seriously. Some things are hyped up for no reason, making the whole thing seem to be more than it actually is.

    The reality: some of these teams and killers give a worse performance than public players. Sure, saying that based on one or two matches would be disingenuous. However, I htink I have seen and played against some of these people enough to have a reason for that opinion.

    Comp in DBD is not really something realistsic due to the game being in the state it is in since it came out. Its, as others have already mentioned, an RNG-fest with a ton of unbalanced stuff. That there even is something like a competetive scene just shows how desperate these people are to play this game on a higher level, when realistically there is none.

    I know this is harsh.

  • Unusedkillername
    Unusedkillername Member Posts: 215
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    This is the case with every game

    I have seen people demanding other players swap in quick play overwatch

    People demanding other players play a hardbreacher in casual siege

    players tilting at a random Odin for being drunk (he went to the wrong lane at start I asked him in chat why he was drunk funniest player I've seen in a MOBA) in unranked Smite at 3am

    and so on and on and on

    The difference in DBD is that there's is no ranked mode so you really can't blame them for playing how they do because what else can they do. The Comp DBD scene is really out the way in its own bubble in public discords. The big issue is Que times but I don't see any reason why tryhards still playing casual is a reason not to have a ranked mode it would lessen the amount. I've come around to the idea that if town of salem can have a competitive mode dbd can.