We have reached rock bottom with complaining
Yes background player needs a change. And for the people buckle up shouldn’t have synergy. But now we complaining about all exhaustion perks? And I saw this other streamer (won’t say his name) complain about how Blastmine has no counter play. How many more nerfs do survivors need?😭
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I don't even have a problem with exhaust perks, the problem I believe lies in how maps generate tiles at times while shift+W being the counter to half the roster. I just see exhaust perks as a way to get to a safe tile, but it only gets worse when you don't even need to play the tile because there's 1-2 safe extensions beyond the tile you reach, especially when they connect to a strong main building or shack. All it takes is making the killer stop half a second at a pallet thinking you may throw it and you can just greed to the next tile's window/pallet.
I say this as someone who primarily plays M1 killers, for the record. I know M2 killers have the edge over this but that doesn't mean it's still not an issue.
Edit: Except Background Player, that one may be problematic.
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Although I don't care much about BGP, reverting back to 150% wouldn't solve much since it was also very useful at that speed. This perk needs complete rework if killers want survivors to avoid it.
Buckle up and for the people can go.
Blastmine should be buffed in my opinion because it's just a perk to annoy killers and don't have much impact on a match.
Exhaustion perk should be reverted to its original state with DH and BL and recover while running ( just kidding ).
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blastmine shouldn’t have that stupid animation they gave it.
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greyletter is stating his opinion on exhaustion. He doesn't think that 50% haste perks that trigger every single chase is fair. many players have had shared opinion that that the perk design is broken and unfair. A long time ago, I remember Ohtofu mentioning that he would not mind if all exhaustion perk were nerfed the ground. @Blueberry has also shared that opinion on forums in the past that he thinks that exhaustion perks are too strong and mandatory for competitive survivor success.
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I agree. The way maps are designed and the RNG factor contributes to making most maps not so fair and Badham and Chapel are a great example of this.
The Chapel it's consider one of the most balanced maps in the game but sometimes It can have a really bad RNG which makes the map favors the survivors. The main building gets stronger due to a strong window and connected loops and the shack may have a jungle gym on its side making a not very good situation for m1 killers.
Badham have many strong buildings and the whole map it's pretty much a safe zone with loops connected everywhere.
The exhaustion perks it's just a bonus that make this kind of maps busted while the problem is actually the maps, not the exhaustion perks.
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Yeah I've been saying this for years that Exhaustion perks have flown under the radar way over tuned. I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though. I simply think (generally speaking, there are a couple exceptions) that they're not only over tuned but also unhealthy design. They're just always universally good. There's never a logical reason to not bring them other than just for the funsies.
Grey touches on it a bit but when you look at them perk for perk compared to other perks in the game the amount of value they give just blows everything else out of the water. It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
Then we get to the unhealthy part. We look at meta killer perks and what do most of them all have in common? They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements ect ect. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Was that an exhausting list to go through to get killer meta perk value? Whew
Alright let's look at survivor Exhaustion perks in general. What do "most" of them share? None of any of that.
We'll take Lithe for example since it's the most popular one. Requirement, find a vault…yup..that's it. The things that are literally everywhere. No negative, no skill requirement, no cap on activation's for the game..nothing but a small cooldown for game swinging effects.
I just don't see how anyone that is genuinely impartial and unbiased can look at this and not see a problem or at least a strong double standard in perk design. If Exhaustion perks were balanced like killer perks each Exhaustion perk activation would requirement an amount of gen progress, or a hook rescue, or an amount of healing done. Something like that.. at the bare minimum.
This also isn't even getting into the abysmal state of all the "anti Exhaustion" killer perks and addons that are just completely awful. This should be the best time to ever run any of them seeing as you can guarantee all 4 survivors will be running Exhaustion perks yet no one uses them. So even in the anti Exhaustion perks best case scenario..they are still trash..that should tell us how bad they are if even in their best case scenario they still aren't worth running. The anti Exhaustion perks and addons are just generally way too restricted with excessively long cooldowns or duration's that are way too small.
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pain res you just get for playing normal nothing crazy if you ask me. Also dead lock noed terminus no way out activate without you doing anything. Am I saying those perks need nerfs? Absolutely not. Other than background player, nothing on the survivor side needs nerfs and nothing on the killer side needs nerfs either. Exhaustion is fine
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"It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though."
these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying that they are mandatory for optimal results.
They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements etc etc. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use. The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng.
My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not. In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my opinion.
On a personal level, the perk that looked the most successful in term of anti-tunneling for me was Made For This. The 3% haste was incredible bonus for me. it allowed me to run killers for a long time. It is the one perk that I feel empowered my chases more then anything else.
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The strength of exhaustion perks are amplified on certain maps. Haddonfield/Eyrie/GOJ/Ormond with Balanced Landing, Sprint Burst on hold W maps etc.
There isn't much counterplay especially as a M1 Killer if a Survivor holds W to a double storey building with Balanced Landing ready. Maps are the issue and exhaustion perks make it easier to take advantage of maps.
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corrupt should be basekit. Disagree about pain res
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Blast mine only delayed the pop then you can regress the gens. Don't be complaining about this. You can literally run nemesis to find the person or even lightborn to avoid the blind. You can even run hex:two can play to give the person blindness as well.
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The community in general just has a massive problem with complaining and wanting the game to cater to THEM. Survivors can't play with friends, or use these perks, or play this character without drawing ire. Theres a thread up right now of people defending griefing a pkayer using the new Invocation perk and its pretty pathetic.
Same with Killers. Is SM boring and unfun? Personally I dont mind her but obviously others dont like her. Does that make it okay to DC or give up cause someone plays her, or Nurse, or Blight? Not at all, but people still do and defend it cause its "not fun". Don't get why so many people even pkay if they compkain about everything in the game.
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Just throwing the idea out there, it would be interesting to have a killer perk that causes permanent exhaustion on a basic attack, but in return, your movement speed is permanently reduced by 5% and can't be raised by any means whatsoever
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I literally just listed all reasons why that isn't true and all the requirements of pain res.
Deadlock is free value and unhealthy design I agree. Problem here is that it's the only counter that exists for survivors just pre dropping pallets that also doesn't have counter play. So kind of a required unhealthiness at moment unfortunately. Ideally in the future when just pre dropping pallets wasn't as lucrative as it is in a coordinated group we could also change this perk.
Terminus is garbage and not even worth mentioning.
Noed is unhealthy design and I would change it as well.
I just gave you tons of in depth reasoning as to why Exhaustion needs changes and you basically just said "no it doesn't".
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"these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is
throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying
that they are mandatory for optimal results. "They are not contradictory statements. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I did not say they are throwing the game by not running an Exhaustion perk. That is not a synonymous statement with what I actually said. Zero reason you wouldn't run the perk if you wanted to win, is not the same thing as saying it's required to win. Completely different meanings.
"I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to
dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for
killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that
Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your
disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use.
The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add
unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng. "I agree.
"My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks
with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay
killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the
record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not.
In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much
like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited
use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them
is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my
opinion."Exhaustion perks are not anti tunnel perks. You get their value by just being chased and normal game flow, whether you're being tunneled or not. I agree that if survivors were able to they would run 4 exhaustion perks. Exhaustion perks being limited to 1 per survivor I would not stretch as "limited use". I also think, generally speaking, saying Exhaustion perks take skill is a huge stretch. I guess you did say it's easy skill though.
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meh not a fan of that idea. Would anyone run that perk? If so what if the team doesn’t run any exhaustion perks? Sounds like another shattered hope situation
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none of your reasons were were valid. Lithe isn’t just vault a window and that’s it. You have to use it correctly. You have to loop correctly to use it effectively. Just vaulting a window might work against Freddy (he needs a lot of help), that’s not gonna work with all the other strong killers in the game. And it’s not even the best exhaustion perk that’s goes to sprint burst. The fact that you excuse dead lock is pretty hilarious since the perk just works passively with no input. I don’t think this perk needs changes btw it’s just funny how you excuse that perk.
terminus is not garbage it counters adrenaline (don’t give me the excuse that it doesn’t counter that speed boost because that’s not what the killer mains were complaining about with the perk) and keeps everyone injured in the endgame.1 -
"none of your reasons were were valid"
Please elaborate then as to why they're not.
"Lithe isn’t just vault a window and that’s it. You have to use it correctly. You have to loop correctly to use it effectively."
No you don't. It is literally vault. The skill level required to get good value from Lithe is laying on the floor it's so low. There's a reason it's the most popular Exhaustion perk, it's because it's easy to get value.
"The fact that you excuse dead lock is pretty hilarious since the perk
just works passively with no input. I don’t think this perk needs
changes btw it’s just funny how you excuse that perk. "And how do you interpret what I said as "excusing deadlock"? I quite literally said it is unhealthy design and I would change it. I didn't give it a free pass. Unless you don't see pre dropping all pallets as an issue in design, in which case I don't believe we're playing at the same mmr.
"terminus is not garbage it counters adrenaline (don’t give me the excuse
that it doesn’t counter that speed boost because that’s not what the
killer mains were complaining about with the perk) and keeps everyone
injured in the endgame. "Running Terminus in case there's Adrenalines is bad game planning. There's a reason you don't see Terminus in the meta much less basically ever. It's not because it's good..it's because it's bad. There's a reason.
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completely agree. Both sides are allowed and should have strong perks. As long as it’s not gamebreaking like eruption and dead hard then it’s fine
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“ pre dropping all pallets as an issue in design” yes that’s an issue if it’s bad maps like the game or badham which should get changes
“If you don’t clearly we aren’t playing in the same mmr” bro trying to sound superior about mmr when matchmaking doesn’t even work so it’s pretty pathetic to use that argument
“And how do you interpret what I said as "excusing deadlock"?
“ So kind of a required unhealthiness at moment unfortunately” there you excused it.
The reason you don’t see terminus is because of no way out is better and because of pop pain res and from embrace being meta. No saying the perk is great but the perk is far from garbage
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stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB, distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them. Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. They're easily most consistent anti-tunnel perks in the game. The popular ones have little to no drawback and often extend chases more so then OTR/DS.
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"yes that’s an issue if it’s bad maps like the game or badham which should get changes"
This issue applies as an issue to like 80%+ of the maps.
"bro trying to sound superior about mmr when matchmaking doesn’t even work so it’s pretty pathetic to use that argument"
MMR can throw you off matches here and there but to say it just doesn't work at all is just factually untrue.
"there you excused it. "
If pre dropping is an issue, which it is, then you have no point in mocking me like I'm excusing killer perks. You attempt to imply like "oh killer perk is fine but survivor perk not, just because", when you know that's not what's happening.
"The reason you don’t see terminus is because of no way out is better and
because of pop pain res and from embrace being meta. No saying the perk
is great but the perk is far from garbage"No, that is absolutely not why. If NWO, Pain Res, or Embrace didn't exist at all, you would still see basically no one using Terminus. It has absolutely nothing to do with those perks existing, at all. It's just a bad perk.
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"stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion
is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB,
distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this
with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them."Similar value in what you're using them for, I can agree.
"Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. "
Disagree. They're for extending chases. Extending chases can be for preventing tunneling, but it is not defacto always just for tunneling.
Just because something can be used for preventing tunneling doesn't mean it is an anti tunnel perk. You're using these synonymously.
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Very soon all exhaustion perks will be only usable once per hook state
and deactivate when the exist gates are powered up
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extending chases is same as DS/OTR. that is why I label them in a synonymous fashion.
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Dude's comment at 4:03 is comedy.
Had my undivided attention until then.
In just about every creative field, there is a fixation for the tools people use. Architect students see their professors' drawings and ask "what pen do you use?" An artist will ask "what brush do you use?" A photographer will ask "what lens do you use?"
The skill is not in the pen, the paint brush, or the camera lens, but in the person who wields it.
Good players make good perks look really strong. That is why they are good players.
Give a less experienced player the same perks, and suddenly the perk is not a problem.
For as long as there are skilled players challenging themselves to extract value out of the game's mechanics, there will be people complaining about the tool skilled players are using.
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Rock Bottom?
After hug-tech being removed, wait to see complains for all techs.
- Window tech.
- 360
- …
Then maybe …
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In the past, I swear I remember someone complained how Scratch Marks were busted on killer and gave too much away. People complain about anything these days, and whilst some are legitimate, there are some that just use complaints as an excuse for their lack of skill and willingness to accept they need to improve.
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Of course someone will complain about anything eventually, what's so strange here
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IMO exhaustion perks are necessary fill in for map knowledge and dead zones.
The more I've played DBD the more I've come to realise how little I know... Realistically I've probably reached mechanically how good I can get, and now the only thing to see any substantial improvements is in mind games, deciphering perks and most importantly tile/map knowledge. Map and tile knowledge seems to be the deciding factor at the highest levels of play, where the only times survivors get hit is when they get caught in a dead zone, or the killer giga brains them. This is exemplified by the popularity and strength of WoO.
Exhaustion perks (I don't use them anymore cause I'm really trying to get better without them), allow you significantly make up for the deficiencies of the map, and by proxy the deficiencies in your map/tile knowledge...
I genuinely believe that the crux of high level play is having God tier map and tile knowledge to severely limit the possibility of getting caught in a dead zone... and for those of us without God tier map knowledge... exhaustion perks bridge that gap for at least 1 mistake.
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Honestly I am just waiting for the moment somebody starts to complain about the perk Hope at this point. And after that probably running altogether.
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After watching the entire thing(unfortunately), let's highlight some of the key things he said.
- Exhaustion perks are not earned and you have to do nothing to get them
Cool beans, let us also talk about how almost all aura reading perks are not earned and you have to do nothing to get them.
- The game wants to be skill based but there is nothing skillfull about exhaustion perks
Looking at the perks he is running, he's telling me that kicking a generator with Pop or getting lucky that a survivor got downed close to a scourge hook takes skill? Got it. Not to mention the aura reading perk he has to do so much for.
- No counterplay
I mean you have perks that afflict exhaustion. There are also enough killer perks/powers that offer barely to no counterplay.
- Boring to play against
Yeah no ######### sherlock, it's also boring to play against Pop, Pain Res and Grim Embrace every game now.
- Basekit changes to survivors removing a lot of stategies for killers
The only strategy that really has been affected is facecamping with the anti facecamp meter and hook grabs being removed.
- Maps being bad and consistently swing in the survivors' favour
This is the part where he really lost me. So many maps have gotten smaller to accomodate M1 killers while high mobility killers or area lockdown killers' kits have stayed practically untouched, basically handing them over the win. Generators spawn way closer together with some spawns being outright obnoxious with a distance of maybe 10 meters inbetween. BHVR almost removed all safe loops and pallets on their map reworks leaving us with barely anything to work with.
- BHVR only really caring about survivors "having a blast" in matches
Bruh… Having a 30% win rate in solo queue is having a blast? The last time we have gotten a somewhat decent perk was like 4 chapters ago with MFT and this one since has been gutted to death. The only time I usually have a blast in this game is when I run meme builds in a SWF group or close the game.
- Going back to skill based match making and perks winning the game for the survivors
Saying this with his whole chest while running Pop/Pain Res is kinda funny to me, since this build carries players like him in almost any (solo queue) game right now. And those players hit "the top MMR" with perks that are overtuned JUST LIKE HE SAID 😭
I don't know, he clearly never played in 2016/17 when this game was HEAVILY favoured towards the survivors with infinite loops, perma broken hooks, exhaustion not even being a thing yet just to name a few things. The game is already in the killer's favour now with the kill rate being higher than the survival rate. If he wants it to be even more tipped into the killers favour then good luck finding anybody who wants to play survivor at that point. It takes two to tango after all.
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requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over here crying about it.
If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook.
It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look, it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table.
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Only thing I think that is really broken on the survivor side is BGP but I don't really have the energy to complain about it. I just wont play killer until it is nerfed
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"Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't
horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over
here crying about it.If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook."
No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook. The sole reason anyone would rather be hooked than slugged is because they want to exit the game early and give up which is something that shouldn't be encouraged. I would always rather be slugged. "Play like a normal person", so you mean aiming for a 12 hook game? Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
"It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look,
it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions
to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in
reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss
Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table."It's not disingenuous. The way you are phrasing this is disingenuous. We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here. I'd say I'm even being generous as I picked the most popular perk that is also considered by most the player base to be the best killer perk. So the "best" killer perk even has all these limitations.
I already said Deadlock is unhealthy design and I would change it as well. The difference here is that there are a few meta killer perks that I would agree are unhealthy whereas my statements above can be applied to most of the survivor meta and nearly all the exhaustion perks, which is the actual topic of this post, so I'd rather stay on topic. Also, Deadlock isn't even in the top 10 killer perks so we're being generous including it.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
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I don't get this…
As a 70-30 Killer - survivor player. I do not understand these people.
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No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook.
Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in camping.
Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking.
We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here
You actually are.
According to Nightlight right now, the top 10 most used killer perks are: Pain Res, PGTW, Lethal Pursuer, Corrupt Intervention, BBQ & Chili, Nowhere to Hide, Bamboozle, Surge, Sloppy Butcher and Deadlock.
Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has additional restrictions.
And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
Pardon?
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"Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been
implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which
is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in
camping. "It does not. There are a myriad of anti slug perks that exist and slugging is very high risk as if it fails you gain nothing and lost a lot. Also, the only anti tunnel you're avoiding is DS and even then it has a long timer which is giving you a very long time to potentially get saved before it's over. He still can't pick you up till it's over. Oh is he bleeding you out while standing over you? The survivors aren't winning the game while he stands there for minutes throwing the match? When is this realistically even ever happening? I rarely ever see this and I play way more than the average person.
"There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and
slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest
levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking."If you think the game is balanced for 12 hook matches then there's nothing else we can talk about as that is an objectively false statement that will deter any future balance conversation as we have a completely different frame of reference.
"Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition
that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to
kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as
you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has
additional restrictions. "Wrong. Lethal could be rendered useless by Distortion and even turns off at the start of the match. Risk and negative right there. Corrupt turns itself off and even ends early if you play well. Negative and limitation on value. BBQ requires hooks, aka skilled play. NWTH requires wasting time on gen kicks which is a high cost and could potentially be countered by Distortion. I'll give you Bamboozle. Surge is heavily RNG, could be very good or bad depending on map and is limited in use by basic attack requirements. Sloppy is limited in use by basic attack requirements like Surge so is generally only usable well on already weak killers. Also has time limitation now.
You're too stuck on "normal game play". It can be part of normal game play but still have many negatives, skill requirements and restrictions which is what this entire conversation was about.
"And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest. "
Comparatively. If no other perks existed except Calm Spirit is Calm Spirit now too good? So saying it's still the strongest is irrelevant.
"Pardon?"
Sorry I forgot about a perk so useless that no one ever uses it. Why was this relevant?
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There are a myriad of anti slug perks that exist
No there aren't.
slugging is very high risk as if it fails you gain nothing and lost a lot.
Shooting your own argument here, I see.
Also, the only anti tunnel you're avoiding is DS
And OTR, and basekit BT, and Babysitter, and Deliverance, and We'll Make It and whatever other unhook perks I forgot.
and even then it has a long timer which is giving you a very long time to potentially get saved before it's over. He still can't pick you up till it's over.
I think you got lost here: You're talking about slugging versus hooking, not slugging in addition to hooking. DS doesn't come into play if you never hook.
The survivors aren't winning the game while he stands there for minutes throwing the match?
Depends on the killer and the location the down has occurred, and the coordination of the survivors.
But also, why are you trying to tell me that it's a bad idea to slug when you specifically listed 'forced to hook a survivor' as a drawback to Pain Res because 'it's suboptimal'?
If you think the game is balanced for 12 hook matches then there's nothing else we can talk about as that is an objectively false statement.
I mean, it isn't, but okay.
Lethal could be rendered useless by Distortion
Oh so now we're gonna drop counterpicks in here, huh? And Lethal would require four Distortions to actually be countered. One Distortion won't do the trick.
and even turns off at the start of the match.
A) It doesn't, it has a persistent benefit that never goes away
B) Did you expect the aura reading to last the entire match?
Corrupt turns itself off
Okay, at this point, you do realise that you are arguing that killers are disadvantaged in their perk design because this perk isn't objectively the most broken thing in the entire game?
Your benchmark here is legitimately a perk that would make it physically impossible to lose, unless there is a cheater among the survivors. THAT is what you are pointing at and saying 'Why can't killers just have nice things?'
and even ends early if you play well.
And at that point, you don't need it. That's not a meaningful drawback to the perk.
BBQ requires hooks, aka skilled play.
A monkey could get a hook, hon. That's not 'skilled play'.
NWTH requires wasting time on gen kicks which is a high cost
No it ain't, especially with the gen-kick buffs. You ARE going to kick gens in the process of a normal match. Nowhere to Hide just adds free value on that.
Surge is heavily RNG
Everything in DBD is.
Sloppy is limited in use by basic attack requirements like Surge so is generally only usable well on already weak killers.
Different killers having different strengths and weaknesses is not a notch against the perks though. The only killer that will likely never M1 is Nurse, everyone else is perfectly able to make use of Sloppy.
You're too stuck on "normal game play". It can be part of normal game play but still have many negatives, skill requirements and restrictions which is what this entire conversation was about.
Except in a normal game, these perks are virtually guaranteed to give value, because their conditions are completely negligible. That is the point. Your standard for what a 'drawback' is has no roots in practicality.
If you were trying to argue this from the other side, you'd be arguing that it's a legitimate drawback to Sprint Burst that you can't make use of it if you're stuck in that dead-end spot on The Game.
Comparatively.
You're going to have a very uphill battle if you want to argue that killer perks, as a whole, are terrible. Pain Res is not 'the best of the worst', it's just plainly the best. Otherwise you'll have to argue that all of its competition is, from a balancing perspective, bad.
And considering your issue with Corrupt Intervention is that it doesn't last all match, thereby guaranteeing survivors can literally never finish their objective, you're gonna have a tough time with that.
Sorry I forgot about a perk so useless that no one ever uses it. Why was this relevant?
It's relevant because you decided to cherry pick the most conditional perk in the killers' top 10 (Also the strongest, but that gets shoved aside) and compared it to one of the less conditional perks in the survivor top 10, and then went 'see? Double standards!'
And then you forgot that this perk, which actually IS overburdened with drawbacks to the point where it's terrible, existed.
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facts
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BHVR's far better off following the example of Fortnite (the game that has more concurrent players than DBD, COD, Apex, TCM, PUBG combined) than listening to the playerbase when it comes to exhaustion perks. Early Fortnite, your character moved without much dynamism; running was more like a brisk jog. Over time, though, they've added sprinting, mantling, climbing, sliding, hurdling, etc., and the game is far better off as a result. Year 1 players complain about every change the game has gone through except movement. It's almost universally agreed upon as having improved the game.
Playing Survivor without exhaustion perks, it's like early Fortnite. Your character's actually jogging while being chased by Killers with supernatural powers, including speed. The role feels slow without exhaustion perks and playing without them puts you at a disadvantage. Exhaustion perks are both feel good perks (like Fixated and Urban Evasion are) and needed to compete. If BHVR ever nerfs exhaustion perks I will quit and a lot of other people will, as well. The game is also supposed to be about fun and not just competitiveness.
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I don't see anyone complaining about standart exhaustion perks besides just your post after very long time with some CC video… so…
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BHVR Interactive if they were based.
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