Okay new Twins update is pretty good
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Twins is uncounterable as survivor. Very bad change so far. Feels great as killer.
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The 10 seconds to unleash is only if Victor got crushed, not recalled.
Sorry, it's 6 seconds, if he is one someone's back. That brings the time from my previous post down all the way to 46 seconds. That's not much of a difference. It's still a lot faster to first do the M1 and then send out Victor. Which is the way the Twins were played before. The "silly numbers game" was done by using very optimistic numbers that ultimately favor you and still we get a result that's not great.
I don't see why you would need 3 people in a SWF to beat the Twins. It is true that one possible way to counter them was to group up and kick Victor after a down (which is still possible) but solo survivors have managed to defeat much stronger killers and they could deal with Twins even when they didn't hold Victor hostage.
Win streaks are no indicator for how strong a killer is. A killer that is played rarely will naturally perform pretty well in public games because the average survivor has no clue how to beat something they don't know. This used to be one of Twins biggest strengths. Now their pick rate will probably go up a bit, which means people will be more familiar with how to deal with Victor.
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I'm sorry, but if you not only don't see how broken Twins are with Victor being nigh constantly available, but also genuinely think it's best to play for Charlotte M1s and only then unleash Victor, I can't tell you anything but that you lack game understanding. The very first thing you should do when you load in as Twins is unleash Victor, and you want to be controlling Victor any second of a match you possibly can. That's the very basics of playing this killer.
Coordination is essential to do anything against Victor, because otherwise he will snowball fast. You have to group up/find teammates to be able to kick Victor after downs (which is also much more difficult now, as he moves faster in hit cooldown - another notable, undocumented buff), or to take Victor if you're healthy and prevent a down on an injured survivor. You have to constantly heal each other. Be there for pallet saves (and die under pallets to begin with, with the knowledge that someone will be there). You have to decide when to hold Victor hostage and when not to (obviously not a thing anymore now). To communicate where Charlotte is in order to decide whether a locker play against Victor has any hope of working out or is otherwise beneficial (e. g. stopping the slugging train, or allowing another survivor to rotate to take a hit). And you have to do everything DbD normally requires of you to begin with, such as coordinate unhooks, know which gens to pressure when, where to lead chases, when to help which teammates and when to play for gen progress, and so on, all of which is extra difficult against a killer that is essentially at two places at once, and can also be around a hook or slug as stealth Charlotte or Victor, or both. A good Twins player does not lose to a team that has no communication and coordination, i. e. a non-SWF group. That was true before the update and it's brokenly true now.
The public games environment is the only relevant measure of a killer's strength in terms of game balance because that's the actual matches actually being played by 99.9% of the playerbase. In that environment, Twins have always been one of the very strongest killers, with multiple high winstreaks on good players, and high kill rates on average. The reason for that precisely being that there is nothing to be learned on how to deal with Victor. Even the best of players can't prevent Victor hits. You either coordinate constantly or you die, making Twins potentially problematic in 90+% of matches by default because they consist of solos and duos at most. And right now, even a coordinated, good SWF team I don't think stands a chance against a good Twins player, unless they arm themselves to the teeth with builds specifically designed to combat them (Unbreakable, Plot Twist, Power Struggle + Flip-Flop, Circle, Exponential, We'll Make It, WGLF, Buckle Up, …).
I guarantee that within the next weeks the community will become painfully aware of the fact that Twins are not acceptable in this state, with the 10-seconds-to-recall change (which I still hope is a bug or oversight, not an intended, undocumented buff). And the only reason why this might not become as widely opposed as the state of PTB Twins is that still only few people may play them. Which I at this point truly hope.
Again, Twins already were a strong killer, most experienced players knew this perfectly well. And now cooldowns are shorter, Victor charges pounce faster at base, is faster during hit cooldown and can be recalled at will when deployed around the map. The changes make them tangibly better already, and do nothing to alleviate the concerns players and BHVR themselves stated they wanted to address, namely their propensity and power to down and slug multiple survivors in quick succession. And yet, here is this nuclear buff on top that makes it so there's never really breathing room; Victor is oppressive whenever out and now will be oppressively present.
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I'm sorry, but if you not only don't see how broken Twins are with Victor being nigh constantly available, but also genuinely think it's best to play for Charlotte M1s and only then unleash Victor, I can't tell you anything but that you lack game understanding.
"If you disagree, then you're bad." Great argument.
It was nice talking to you but if this is the best you got, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Gonna chime here as a third party, I honestly don't see how it's not automatically obvious that it's better to instantly start the match (and always try to be in control of Victor as much as possible) as a 150% movement speed killer with a fast charging lunge, than a 115% regular M1 killer with no power. Why would you ever play the 115% killer besides the time when Victor is busy or you feel the need to hook?
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That's actually a bug, hopeful of a fix in an upcoming hotfix
Also if Victor is not triggering the antifacecamp feature that might also be a bug, as I think he's supposed to.
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Not saying you are "bad" in some general sense, just that you don't understand or know enough about Twins gameplay if you genuinely hold those beliefs.
I sincerely hope that the community will "prove you right" by not being up in arms about this change, because the only way I can see that happen is if still nobody plays Twins. And it's unfortunate that I have to hope for that now because I for one have always enjoyed playing against Twins. And as Twins for that matter, which will also be less engaging now, because of how mindless it is.
I am relieved to hear that, thank you for coming in to clarify.
Another Twins change you might not be aware of and that might be unintended: Victor now moves faster after a successful hit, making him harder to kick. He also appears with a white outline during this time, suggesting that he cannot be kicked (which he however can), which to me makes it seem even more likely that his movement speed during this time is a bug.
To use this comment for something productive, here is my suggestion for a Twins balance adjustment: Make it so that Victor again latches onto downed survivors as well as injured survivors. This stops the slugging machine and provides survivors more downtime, while enabling Charlotte to more reliably pick up a survivor Victor downed. To compensate for this nerf, you could then reduce the time-to-recall (when latched onto an injured or downed survivor) from what used to be 30 seconds to 20 or 15, since you'll then have double the downtime. Alternatively, instead of the reduction in recall time, you could compensate for the nerf by giving Charlotte that 10% Haste buff whenever Victor is latched on again, making her more of a threat than just a barebones M1 killer.
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That's a relief to hear.
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That’s a bug? Does that mean it’s intended that survivors should be able to hold Victor hostage for 30 seconds? (I think it was 30 seconds?)
We waited literal years for a Twins rework, and BHVR still thinks it’s fine when survivors hold Victor hostage? That’s the most unfun thing about playing Twins, and it was the #1 I was hoping the Twins rework would address.
If 10 seconds is a bug, then can the reworked Twins get some number like 15 seconds instead? I had stopped playing Twins before the rework, because there were so many survivors that would hold Victor hostage, that I didn’t even want to bother with Twins… and if Victor hostage is coming back, then I’ll stop playing Twins again.4 -
That 30 seconds is the only thing that stops Twins from being absurdly broken. Once everyone is injured its game over.
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None of that is necessarily, just make it so Charlotte can teleport to Victor when he's latched on a downed survivor. The cooldown when he's latched on a downed survivor should also be 10 instead of 30 so Charlotte can use him immediately after she hooks the downed survivor.
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That’s good to hear.
Is his hit cooldown also bugged then? It seems to be the same as PTB (instead of 5 seconds) but the patch notes didn’t say anything about keeping that. Victor can just move almost immediately and it’s really difficult to kick him.
He’s also incorrectly glowing white after successful attacks even though he can still be kicked.
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They aren't trying to "buff" twins. the point of the update was to address their issues and things that felt boring or slow. I personally am happy with the changes that came out yesterday. they made twins stronger and smoother without removing the counter play.
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Welp if that's a bug then I won't be playing twins after all. I was thinking about playing them bc I didn't like the whole hold Victor hostage for 30secs. I continue to pretend this killer never existed and play other killers whose power can't be held hostage by survivors. Thanks for letting me know before I waste my time on this sorry excuse of a killer. To the twin mains have fun with your killer whose power can be denied for 30s just bc the survivor can walk around with your boy on thier back.
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Oh, so now Twins went from "were generally considered a top 5 comp killer" to "haven't seen comp play in years", how convenient 🤣.
Also they gave explanations for each one of the tiers and the tier Twins was placed in was for killers with either a weak chase power or with an old power that good survivors can easily counter, so that explanation you gave about comp tiers not correlating to killers' strenght is not flying I'm afraid.
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not sure on the cooldown, that's being checked by QA as well as the red/white glow etc.
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yes that is a bug, that's something that's been decided as being needed and 10s is far too short. I believe we're still looking at keeping it the same as it was previously, which I believe is 30s but would have to check, there's no current plans to change that but thank you for your feedback.
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Do you WANT the Killer to be broken?
Victor CANNOT be out all the time.
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Yes, in the past when they were played in tournaments regularly, they were considered top 5, with 4ks being common results. Nothing about Twins had changed since then. The point I made was to highlight their strength, it wasn't about the comp scene, this isn't the gotcha you may think it is. I don't know why they don't see much of any comp play anymore these days, I guess teams just don't enjoy them (it isn't strength-related because a plethora of low-tier killers still of course do see play).
I also don't know why DbD League had them in tier 4 for the winter circuit, but again, not only do other tournaments still have them in higher tiers, but it may simply be balancing-specific. The explanation you are referring to was given by the thread creator, I'm not sure whether that was the officially given explanation from DbDL at the time. But even if it was, that doesn't mean there can't be outliers, and Twins might have simply ended up in that tier due to its balancing being more fitting for them. After all, the lowest tier is also not the "weakest", it's just the stealth balancing tier, with indoor maps and some exotic restrictions. But those killers actually 4k regularly on that balancing; Ghostface, Dredge and Myers on indoors are strong and that even against these highly coordinated teams with precise calls for those maps.
In either case, here's an example from DbDL itself of back-to-back Twins 4ks in a match between Eternal and Trauma (the best teams at that time):
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No, I just don't want a killer whose power can be held hostage 30s or more. Like at the end of the day I honestly don't care, I just wont to play Twins who are boring killers bc most of the time you force to play an M1 killer at the will of the survivor. If Charlotte wasn't so boring to play then I wouldn't care if victor could be held for 30s but that's not the case. She still is as boring as she was before. If I wanted to play a boring m1 killer then I play SM.
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I really hope BHVR changes their minds on the Victor hostage situation.
The Twins rework was supposed to fix the Victor hostage situation, and I don’t understand why that needs to be completely reverted. Why can’t we try 20 seconds, and see how the feedback goes?
Victor hostages just heavily encourage Twins to prioritize injured survivors, which can often be a survivor that was recently unhooked. It’s basically punishing Twins if they want to prioritize a healthy survivor, instead of tunneling an injured survivor.
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Then what even was the point of bringing up comp play in the first place as an argument when they make special conditions and restrictions for even the weaker killers to be able 4k coordinated teams ? You literally just shot yourself in the foot with that entire argument.
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Well as Hens for example described it holding Victor hostage is basically the counterplay to them, because everything else is just the killer player missing and with that super low recall time you can just 4 men slug way too easy... He injures them faster than they can heal and there is no reason for him to pick up.
I mean sure losing your power for that long sucks, but what are the survivors supposed to do otherwise? Run to the opposite side of the map and jump into a locker?
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Like I understand why the 30 seconds is there but there got to be something they could do to Charlotte feel better to play when you are force to play as her. She is just so boring to play for those 30 seconds where she doesn't have power. The issue is that Charlotte is the most boring and weakest part of the killer and being forced to play as her just because survivors don't want to crush Victor sucks. On top of all that you still heavy encourage to slug and that is not fun for either side. At the end of the day, I still think Twins is a boring killer to play just like SM bc you have a large amount of time where you are just an M1 killer. Sure they are super strong but that doesn't make up the fact they are so boring to play. To me, that is the real reason no one plays them.
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Well the counter play is not supposed to be holding him hostage. The counter play is stacking and healing. Healing counters the slugging which is the only way they win and grouping leads to them getting kicked on every successful down which means they are generally picked up before you can get back or they do get there in time and now you’re forcing her to down, walk over, down, walk over, which is losing them the game anyway as that’s too time deficient.
This all said, I can understand why you want the Victor held hostage to be a thing, but I think we can both agree having their power held hostage like that is bad design and not fun for the killer. So if we are doing that, then Charlotte needs something to make her fun to use when she doesn’t have her power. Maybe she needs her own power as well or some kind of strength boost she gets while Victor is taken.
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Comp DBD involves less than 0.01% of the players, and isn't representative of public DBD games at all. There are many public DBD games, where Twins lost, but the survivors never held Victor hostage. So it's not a mandatory counterplay.
There's also a big difference between a really fast 10 seconds and a really slow 30 seconds. BHVR, could instead limit Victor hostages to 15 seconds or 20 seconds, and try that.
And yes, the locker counterplay is still there. I've been in many games in the past, where a survivor jumped in a locker, but Charlotte was so far away that she couldn't get to that locker in 10 seconds. I've also had many games where Victor knocked someone to the ground, then immediately got kicked by someone else, and that someone else healed the slugged survivor off the ground before Charlotte could get there. I've also had games where a survivor was at a very safe dropped pallet, and Victor literally couldn't reach the survivor because the pallet was that safe.
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The point was showing that even some of the best players in the game with top tier coordination struggle against Twins, i. e. that they were a strong killer before these buffs. That they do well in pubs where there are no restrictions is something I also pointed to, with their high average kill rate and the existence of long winstreaks.
As a general point and a bit of a tangent, people really overrate or misconstrue what restrictions do in comp play. First of all, it instantly changes the entire narrative from "survivors too strong" to "well, if all survivors have these stacked loadouts, then they can be too strong". Comp balancing doesn't change the basic game, most of it is just perk, item and add-on bans and restrictions. It goes to show that top killers are able to compete perfectly well with top survivors, and even outperform them. That already is something most people don't really seem think about, the fact that if you were to invoke comp for balance arguments, it would be most of all about perks, items and add-ons, because comp proves that it isn't gen times, most maps, vault speeds, movement speeds or any other base game aspect that creates a major imbalance (and again, if anything shows the game to be killer-favoured, with more than two kills per match on average).
The next thing is that the level of stacked skill and experience of the individual players in comp teams as well as their level of coordination and communication is something you will basically never see outside of comp. I would not hesitate to bet that those teams on their restricted loadouts will outperform most of any pub juker SWF armed to the teeth with everything they desire. And of course, not only are full SWFs with voice comms rare enough to encounter to begin with, but for them to then to also have stacked and coordinated builds and practiced communications and such is just non-existently rare. So really what we are comparing these highly skilled and coordinated comp teams against in an average pub match is worlds apart, which is solos and duos most of the time, of mediocre-at-best players, without any communication or coordination. An average random pub group like this will be less competitive even if they were able to use 8 perks per player than a top-level comp team with restricted loadouts.
The restrictions also not only go both ways (killers having a plethora of add-on and perk bans and restrictions too), they aren't as restrictive as is sometimes thought. Survivors can still use perfectly viable perks, that they get great value out of not least because they can coordinate their uses very well. Just take a perk like Camaraderie, something that is little more than a bad joke in most pub matches, but can be incredibly impactful in this environment where all players coordinate to make perfect use of it, with the player having it intentionally taking up aggressive roles (such as pressuring risky gens, contesting hooks, etc.) to be the one ending up on hook, only one player leaving to activate their Cama, with the rest sticking to gens for its duration. That already would be unthinkable in most of any pub match.
Comp-restricted DbD is still just DbD for the most part, it's still survivors against killers with all of their basic mechanics (well, the anti-facecamp mechanic has been negated, something I for one wouldn't do). If in that environment with full teams of highly skilled and coordinated survivors with practiced communications killers can still compete, it's no wonder they outperform in the pub environment where even just having a 4-player SWF is incredibly rare, let alone them then being highly skilled and experienced, having voice comms, team cohesion, coordination, stacked loadouts, and whatnot.
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In the most recent released stats Twins had the 20th kill rate while literally having the lowest pick rate out of all the killers in the game, so even when they're not getting dragged down by new players and essentially only have their most dedicated mains playing them they're still mediocre in kill rates. At this point you're literally just living in a supposed past where Twins were a top 5 comp killer and had a high kill rate cause this is clearly not the case today.
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They should have keept the ideia of Victor holding a survivor on the ground when Victor down them after injuried, at least, this would be a nerf to the twins slug play. If you down a survivor with Victor he stays on the ground with the survivor, simple solution for Twins slug. And yes, survivors should be hosting Victor for at least 25~30 seconds instead of only 10 seconds that is so stupid (but Mandy just confirmed its a bug)
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Just imagine if this wasn't a bug tho. The amount of people rushing to defend the fax that victor could be recall quickly is insane. Telling u it possible to reset vs a 150 speed killer who can immediately be on the map lol no. People desperation to maintain power is sickening. It like telling someone ftp/buckle up, old eruption, and background player was fair..... I'm really disappointed
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In the most recent released stats Twins had the 20th kill rate while literally having the lowest pick rate out of all the killers in the game, so even when they're not getting dragged down by new players and essentially only have their most dedicated mains playing them they're still mediocre in kill rates. At this point you're literally just living in a supposed past where Twins were a top 5 comp killer and had a high kill rate cause this is clearly not the case today.
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im starting to see why Twins was left to rot any sort of buff even QoL makes twins busted and unfun to go against.
Twins were the Skull merchant of there time
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I mean most ppl just don't like the idea of their power being in full control of the other side. Holding Victor hostage is about like your all your pods getting deleted with one EMP on singu. As I said in my post above I understand the reasoning for Victor having a 30-second cooldown if held by a survivor but it is also one of the most unfun parts of the killer bc you are then forced to play a boring m1 killer with no power. Im not saying leaving the recall at 10secs but they could do something that makes Charlotte a little more exciting or interesting to play when she doesn't have her brother. Personality Im not even going to touch Twins bc I don't like my power being in the hands of survivors. It is the same reason I don't like playing singu. I just stay with Wesker, Xeno Wraith, ect.
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"20th kill rate" (or 58%) is within 2% of the top 10. They also had 60% in high MMR brackets (top 5, among other killers), as well as 60% on Nightlight right now (3rd deadliest killer there over the recent month of stats). What do you mean "living in a past", nothing about Twins changed in those years, and if anything the one thing that could regularly make them tangibly, consistently less potent if in play (Circle) has been nerfed substantially and sees little to no use.
At this point you just seem to be intent on dying on some tangential hill. Do you genuinely not believe that Twins were a strong killer prior to this update and direly needed buffs? Moreover, do you take issue with me suggesting the 10-second recall time is broken, and think they are fine with it? Because otherwise I can't see why you would hold up this argument. I even welcomed most of the improvements to them in the update, even if they went back on addressing one of their primary reasons to touch Twins to begin with, namely their propensity to slug.
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Killer Update - The Twins
- The Visual Terror Radius accessibility setting will now include Victor’s grunts. (NEW)
- Victor will now glow red whenever he is vulnerable to being crushed and white when he is not. (NEW)
- Charlotte can now recall Victor at any point while he is unbound. (NEW)
- A new icon has been added to indicate the moment when Victor can be recalled. (NEW)
- Decreased the time it takes to switch back to Charlotte to 1.5 seconds. (was 3 seconds)
- Decreased the time it takes to unbind Victor to 0.75 seconds. (was 1 second)
- Decreased the time it takes to charge Victor’s Pounce to 0.85 seconds. (was 1 second)
- Increased the cooldown for Victor to come back after being crushed to 10 seconds. (was 6 seconds)
What do you mean by undocumented. The third sentence is, Charlotte can now recall victor at any point while he is unbound. The key word is at any point. It does not say when Idle. At least according to patch notes, the recall is intended.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
The issue is just that it always has been. And especially with those short cooldown you cannot heal faster than she can injure.
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OK, who mentioned comp DBD? Is Hens suddenly a comp player or is he a streamer and content creator?
Even if Victor gets kicked after the down you have him back in no time and can just go right back there and attack the one healing the slug.
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Tbh Hens might as well be a comp player or at least be semi consider as one since major of his content as of late been hosting comp tournaments. Just passed two weekend he host a Spring Invitational Tournament. He may not play comp himself but he does heavy surround himself in comp and has a comp mindset. Just saying tho.
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Comp player = someone who hosts tournaments? Excuse me xD so the guy who moderates a football match is a football player? ^^
I don't think he has a comp mindset at all... He seems to mostly play chill... It just seems like that because he is good at the game.
But even if he was, that would speak even more towards the point of twins being too strong right now... Because when even comp players cannot figure out what to do against a killer that can slug the entire team without much effort then what are 4 solos or pub players in general supposed to do?
Or are you seriously telling me that what he did in those games on his stream was so hard to achieve that only someone with 10k hours could have done it?
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Thats the thing. Their goal with the Twins-Rework was to remove the heavy slugging from them. Which was quite clear on the PTB, since they did everything that the Killer is not incentived to slug. (Even tho, slugging with Twins will always happen, just because it is part of the normal gameplay since you will have to move Charlotte to the Survivor to pick them up. But it would have not been possible to slug multiple people with Victor)
And because their PTB-Version was busted, they reverted a lot (rightfully so) and now Twins are just back to slugging heavily, except they can do it even better than before due to the QoL-Changes. And the Bug that Victor can be recalled way too quickly is just the cherry on top.
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Twins update is completely broken lol… don't know in what universe this is good?!
I am just not going to play the game until they fix this as being able to recall Victor every 10 seconds for pretty much unavoidable hits is madness. They need to kill switch this killer until they fix them (wish they would permanently kill switch them tbh).
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No, I just took issue with you saying that they're a top 5 comp tier and had a high kill rate, which I already proven that there were both lies. 20th kill rate isn'f anything to brag when literally only the most dedicated mains are playing them, it proves that even they aren't dominating pubs like you were implying.
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So, the only significant change to the killer that solved one of their biggest problems, making it The change that makes them bearable to play now, is a bug that is going to be reverted after years of reworking them. Great, just great.
And
according to the Wiki, right now the times are 20 seconds latched + 10 seconds of "regrowth"(EDIT: I have been informed that it was, in fact, 36 seconds total) the times are 30 seconds latched + 6 seconds of "regrowth", compared to the 16 seconds minimum it is now if you recall them (10 until you are able to recall, 6 to regrow).Crazy idea: Why not just make the latch max time 20 instead of 30, the regrow take 10 seconds instead of 6 and still allow for recalling him after 10 seconds of being latched, making it from 20 to 30 seconds total? That way, it would reduce the overall time he is on the match (including all the other times you will recall him) while still allowing the killer to decide if it is better to have him back earlier or let him latched 10 seconds more, instead of survivors forcing it to be 36 seconds.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Victor needs to have meaningful downtime.
You can't just have a 150% Killer running around constantly killing people.
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And from 20 to 30 seconds everytime you injure someone, including 4 additional seconds everytime you recall him is not "meaningful"?
For not saying that even if it is visually bugged, you can kick him again when you down someone with him, which is the main reason he is on the map almost constantly right now, as people don't even try to kick him because of it. So, you can even argue that they should first fix the visual bug and then see if the 16 second minimum recall when latched is really a problem before changing it again.
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I already addressed this point earlier in the thread. "Unbound" means not bound to Charlotte or a survivor. It goes without saying that Victor has to not be bound to Charlotte in order to be able to recall him, so it's obvious the reason "unbound" is specified here is that it pertains Victor not being tied to a survivor. That change had also already been in on the PTB, and yet Victor could not be recalled while latched onto a survivor, further suggesting this is not what is meant here. And finally, if this were intended to also apply when Victor is latched onto a survivor, there would not be a 10-second timer until you can recall, because that is not "at any point". What this patch note refers to is recalling Victor when he is parked around the map, which was not possible in the past.
If that isn't enough to convince you, take it from the devs themselves saying this is an unintended bug, surely then meaning they didn't intend for that note to imply otherwise.
What are these weird hills people are trying to climb up to me from. Even if it were "documented", what does that change about the fact that it's broken? What is your purpose with this?
Lies? You really love your death on this hill. I said they were considered top 5 comp (past tense), which they absolutely had been, and no changes had happened to them since then. I did not specify they were considered top 5 up until the very day the update dropped, but again, the primary reason why they may not have been is simply that they don't see regular play in comp anymore and are not considered much at all. That is not mutually exclusive, I hope you can understand that. You also only brought up one event to support your point. Again, Outrun The Fog for instance has Twins in their second-highest tier. The Arkade has them more heavily restricted than half the killers.
"20th kill rate" is disingenuous. Again, the difference between the top 10 cut-off and Twins is 2%. If you bracket the killers by kill rate, Twins would be on 8th place, and that's a very strict bracketing by 1% integers. And regardless, I said high kill rate, which 58-60% absolutely is (60% in the high MMR bracket in Sep. 2022). Top 3 kill rate on Nightlight in the last month, top 9 and top 4 respectively in the two months prior to that. Saying only the most dedicated mains are playing them is also disingenuous, or just showcasing your lack of understanding that even a pick rate of 1% correlates with a huge number when looking at millions upon millions of matches throughout a month.
But yes, let's say you got me good, I heinously lied about Twins' standing in comp and performance potential in pub matches, to serve my sinister plot to get this 10-second recall time reverted that they absolutely need to be able to compete.
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@Batusalen You are mistakenly quoting parts of the wiki that describe how Twins functioned on the PTB. You can tell this is the case by taking note of them also pointing to the 10% Haste effect for Charlotte in the same section. The 20-second auto-recall and 10-second regrow time thereafter pertained Victor when latched onto a downed survivor. The time before you could recall Victor when latched onto a survivor in the past was 30 seconds. The regrow time on that being 6.
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The only one dying on a hill is you babe, I literally proved you wrong with the exact same stats you yourself tried to use an argument. And compared to other killers then yeah, mostly just their dedicated mains are playing otherwise they wouldn't have one the lowest if not the lowest pick rate constantly, that's really not rocket science to understand. You literally gone back on stats from 2 years ago to salvage your argument, talk about actually dying on a hill lol.
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So, instead of being forced to not have your power for 30 seconds total, it was 36? That totally invalidates my point. In no way does this make their apparently final decision to revert it even worse.
But yeah, my mistake. I never was that interested in the Twins to look at their past numbers, and looking at this post, I guess they will get back to my "Not picking them even if I'm paid to do so" list again.
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
the recall when victor is on the survivor is most fun part about the update. if I could keep anything in regards to the twin changes, it would be that singular change. the other changes are ok but unimportant.
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I literally proved you wrong with the exact same stats you yourself tried to use an argument
Which stats are those? I didn't refer to any specific set of stats, just saying "pub matches". And what exactly did you prove wrong? I said they have high average kill rates in pubs, I didn't say they are top 5 average kill rate or whatever (which they on Nightlight however are, and which isn't a very meaningful distinction anyway because the differences between the top 5 and top 20 can be as little as 2%). Now you may argue 58-60% is not "high" for your terms, but that would be a completely different and mostly meaningless argument.
compared to other killers then yeah, mostly just their dedicated mains are playing
"Mostly" is different from "only". Again, there's millions upon millions of matches of DbD happening every month, all of which is captured in those stats. 1% of that is still tens of thousands of matches. I hope you don't believe only dedicated Twins mains are the ones playing those matches.
You literally gone back on stats from 2 years ago to salvage your argument
"Salvage" what argument? My argument wasn't they had a 60% average kill rate in high MMR brackets last week - they may very well and likely did still have high average kill rates, but we simply didn't have those stats last week -, it was that they have high average kill rates, which whatever stats we have do showcase. The most recent stats on killer-specific high MMR kill rates are from September 2022. Which, just to note, is less than two years ago. More importantly however, again, no changes to the Twins had happened since then, so there is no reason to not use those stats to describe the state of Twins prior to this update.
This argument is completely fruitless and futile. You supposedly don't even believe Twins were in a bad spot strength-wise and needed buffs, and yet you still keep going around these asinine points that would only be relevant if you did believe that. And regardless, the only actual point of my posting was that the 10-second recall time is broken. If you don't contest me on that, I don't care what you take issue with. Go on thinking that you got me good, for all I care.
You falsely construed the difference from pre to post-update Twins to be less significant than it is. It went from 36 to 16 seconds total, a 20-second reduction, more than 50%. That is meaningful. Imagine if Spirit's power cooldown was halved.
Whether the 10-second recall time is something they need or let alone something that makes them "bearable to play" is not something I care to debate. The devs have already confirmed it's a bug and that they too believe the 30 seconds are necessary, so I don't care to convince anyone anymore.
Fun for the killer player, if they want easy wins, sure. I for one don't find it fun even when playing as Twins - I have always enjoyed their macro focus and the fact that you have to manage your Victor downtime and get good value out of any time you have him available for. With Victor being nigh-constantly available now, playing them is mindlessly easy. The snowball now builds itself if you are capable of hitting your pounces, which if you just run up to survivors and bite their ankles takes little to no skill and has little to no counterplay.
You can still recall Victor when he's on a survivor's back, it'll just take 30 seconds instead of 10 until you are able to again. If you find that unfun, unlucky. I will say that Twins are not a popular killer for a reason, so I definitely don't disagree that ideally BHVR would do more to make them more fun for more players (on both sides). But the oppressively short Victor cooldown is not it. I had a simple suggestion earlier in the thread for an improvement I would like to see for them, but yeah, it will likely be many months or years before they touch them again, if ever.
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