Seriously after all this time, Dredge & Sadako need a stealth rework
Onryo and Dredge, The Former has a Lullaby Radius, and the Latter Has a Directional Audio Queue Whenever either uses their Power.
This alone is bad enough, hell, in Onryo's case, it's also something that people can notice immediately if they activate the Visual TR effect. Regardless, neither of these things belong on any killer that can achieve the UNDETECTABLE status through their BASE KIT! Seriously!
I have lived with these grievances for long enough, and I say the fix is simple:
- Remove Onryo's Lullaby.
- At the very LEAST make the Ambient Screams/Cries when Dredge goes into Nightfall OMNIDIRECTIONAL instead of directional.
Onryo's Lullaby NEVER made sense to me. She's already one of the noisiest killers in the game, so having her ANNOUNCE her presence when she goes into "Stealth" mode is not only stupid, it's down right AGGRAVATINGLY COUNTERINTUITIVE to her kit. Hell, It's so bad that killer players have adopted equipping PERKS that grant Undetectable because, while her kit "Technically" grants undetectable status when she De-manifests, Going with a Perk Granted undetectable status actually allows her to sneak up on survivors, as it gives them no "lullaby" warning!
Killer Players are CHOOSING a Perks Undetectable OVER THE BASE KIT because it gives survivors LESS WARNING! I thought the GF PTB wherein you gave him a similar warning sound when he went into stealth mode, and unanimously the community were against it. I think the community said it best when they stated that it was "Like shouting at the survivors: I'M IN STEALTH OVER HERE, PLEASE DON'T LOOK AT ME!"
As for the Dredge. Honestly Aside from the map dependent RNG Locker problem, Dredge is great! Except for that one, tiny, annoying detail wherein when Nightfall occurs, every survivor with decent ears within 24m can immediately pinpoint where he is because the ambient screaming sounds directionally emanate from his exact position!
Just give him the Huntress/Freddy Treatment and make that noise Omni-Directional Already! Dredge already "GLOWS" when within that range in Nightfall, so does he, arguably the 2nd loudest killer in the game, really need an ambient noise that directionally tells all survivors exactly where he's coming from? Even worse… AGAIN, he's supposed to be in the "Undetectable" state whenever Nightfall activates. You are literally taking the "Jump" out of the "Scare" he's supposed to represent!
I know I'm giving you all a lot of grief here, and some of it may sound very mean spirited, but please hear me out… I'm always thinking about the "why" of your design whenever you make your perk and kit decisions, but for the life of me, I can't understand the reasoning behind these choices regarding these two killers. Survivor players are good, and even if new, they learn fast, so what was the thinking behind these choices for "stealth" killers like Dredge and Onryo? I'd honestly like to know.
All I'm Saying is that if you're gonna give a killer a Base kit Stealth/Undetectable ability, make them stealthy! Is that too much to ask for?
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I would not outright remove her lullaby. I would create addons that can change the lullaby in many ways.
- Purple addon: reverses the lullaby radius. The closer Sadako gets, the quieter the lullaby gets. Otherwise the lullaby is map wide.
- Yellow addon: massively reduces the lullaby to 6m.
The lullaby is alright, its just not really thought through. You CAN sneak up on survivors. Even on good ones.
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I don't know how I feel about Sadako having no lullaby.
It's annoying and negates a lot of the stealth potential. However an on demand stealth with no cool down or drawbacks on top of a map wide teleport and built in slow down might be a little much.
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dredge needs less locker rng in nightfall, more consistent method of tp in addition to lockers and lullaby removed.
onryo needs another rework/revert. that is not happening any time soon.
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And Ghost Face or Wraith are… Broken to you? When she De-manifests/Manifests she still takes a whole 1.5 seconds with a very LOUD announcement sound, and that is already more than enough in my book. Freaking GF doesn't even give you that! So why does a killer with Base-kit Stealth, and a loud/timed delay announcement sound when coming out of stealth mode NEED a Lullaby on top of all that?
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I agree fully that locker distribution RNG on maps definitely needs a rework at the least for Dredge! No one is argueing that, but in the mean time, can they AT LEAST, make his ambient "People screaming/crying" sounds in Nightfall Omni-directional like Huntress's lullaby? As it stands, I can always tell where that noisy turd is coming from when everything goes dark, and that's just because I have functioning ears. Thank God its not another lullaby, otherwise Survivors would have a Visual advantage against Dredge as well… Same can't be said for poor Sadako/Onryo.
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I'd argue thag Ghost Face and Wraith don't have a map-wide teleport or built-in slowdown survivors have to interact with to avoid being mori'd in first down but maybe I've missed some buffs recently.
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No because they don't have everything that I listed.
Ghost Face has an on demand stealth - but it's on a 20 second cool down and can be removed by survivors. He also has zero mobility and no built in slowdown.
Wraith has on demand stealth and mobility - but increased speed is not the same as an instant map wide teleport and his uncloak speed is longer and slower than Sadako's. He also has no built in slowdown. Also he's so loud he basically does have a small lullaby.
Sadako meanwhile has:
- No cooldown to her stealth
- Immunity to stuns (meanwhile Wraith receives a 4 second stun when he is cloaked)
- A near instant map wide teleport
- Passive slow down
- A built in mori
Giving Sadako a stealth that would arguably be stronger than those two killers on top of one of the best teleports in the game and passive slow down would be too much. If you want to give her a good stealth aspect you would need to lower the strength of the rest of her kit.
I understand that having the lullaby kinda doesn't make sense for a stealth ability but removing it would be too much.
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You can hear where she’s teleporting from as well as see the TV so it’s not a surprise. The manifest also slows her down while being the only stealth that gives basically nothing. There’s no speed boost, no charge, no one shot, nothing. The manifest/demanifest is just preventing you from attacking. Yeah it’s on demand without “much” of a draw back, but it also has none of the benefits or bonuses that literally any of the other stealth killers have. It’s the least rewarding to use of them all. The “flickering” is hardly a benefit either.
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@BlightedDolphin You’re giving reasons why Ghostface needs buffs as well, not why Sadako doesn’t.
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I'm not saying her stealth is good, it isn't at all. I'm saying she shouldn't have good stealth because it would be too much in addition to everything else she already has.
She's not overpowered or anything, she could use some changes, but removing the lullaby isn't the way to do that. Buff her in other ways. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be fine, but that's just what I think.
Yes because the OP was saying that my logic meant Ghostface was broken, which I was showing wasn't the case because he has nothing that Sadako has and isn't in anyway comparable.
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I mean I'm down if you're wanting to improve her in other ways instead of the stealth. What did you have in mind?
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I honestly have no clue haha. Sorry.
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Well there's a few different ways we could go about this.
- TV's that aren't that survivors target TV for tape drop off should not be highlighted, it removes surprise teleports and makes it even easier to spam turn off TV's completely denying her power with little downside. You can already hear them audibly anyway.
- Ring Drawing should be base kit to incentivize hooking and give some kind of punishment to tape holding. There's currently zero negative to tapes. There needs to be some risk/reward.
- If we don't do Ring Drawing built in, I'd rather have hits breaking tapes returned. This is another way of giving Sadako some form of fighting Condemn removal. She currently has basically zero control over their removal. She's essentially an m1 killer with no real anti loop, no real stealth and a map mobility controlled by survivors, so if I can get an m1 on them I should be rewarded for that.
- Remove the directional audio on TV teleports, it removes the point of the surprise.
- I would also mention improving her "anti loop" if it's even good enough to call it that. The intermittent flicker is so bad it does on the edge of nothing realistically. However, it currently is supposed to be better but is actually a confirmed bug and never received the buff to its duration that it was supposed to get on her last update. It's also currently desynced visually between what Sadako sees and the survivors see. Meaning when you look invisible on your screen from the flicker, you're not for the survivor. This messes up any ability to actually time your direction changes at loops.
- Speaking of which, remove the slow down entirely from Manifesting. We already know it's trash as a stealth, doesn't have a charge, doesn't have a speed boost ect. It does so little it isn't worthy of slowing you down at all.
- Remove the lock in limit on hooking like we had on the last PTB version. It punished people who ignored her tape mechanic and rewarded hooking. She currently doesn't have enough incentive to hook at only 3 locked in. Any number that gets locked in at 2 hooks is completely and utterly irrelevant. At that point they're dead on hook and the Condemn doesn't even matter anymore. If the Condemn ever requires more than one hook at max it has defeated it's entire point and is counter intuitive.
- Her addons are a complete mess. The vast majority of them are trash. There's also many of them which still have old effects that used to be good, based on her old version but weren't reworked upon her reworks and don't make sense anymore. Iri Tape which used to be one of her best is now complete garbage.
- Speaking of addons she has some that feel "required". I know that her speed boost out of TVs was already buffed but Bloody Fingernail is her best addon and feels like an auto lock every match, it's that good. It would be extremely challenging to convince many Sadako's to drop it regardless of what happens to her other addons, it feels that required. Maybe nerf it and buff some of it into the base kit again.
I'm not saying all of these, but these are some different directions to go.
I also disagree with any point about "condemn is just for slow down, not getting kills". I know you didn't say this yet, just mentioning before the guaranteed person does. The Condemn is all she has. She's trash in every other aspect. If the Condemn is only for slow down then her entire kit is just a teleport controlled by survivors and m1'ing people. Even from a fun aspect that is bad. I can understand her Condemn being as it currently is if she was better and more fun in other areas, but she's not, the Condemn is the only thing she has going for her and the only thing making her unique from other killers. It's why people play her over any other killer.
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I always thought that giving her a tiny speed boost while cloaked wouldn't be that bad, not like wraith but a bit smaller so she can patrol better.
Maybe that's giving her way to much mobility so...
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I generally would rather buff her in unique ways that isn't the same as other killers, even if it's a smaller %. As you mentioned Wraith already has that so I'd rather give her something more unique. Either improving the flicker a lot for better mind games or maybe while Demanifested she could walk through windows at a slower rate. Something unique. There's already way, way too many killers that are nearly copy/pastes of each other with a different splash of paint on it.
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Oh god please no
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I agree, the facing trough dropped pallets and windows sounds like an amazing rework idea
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I like the idea of bringing back breaking tapes on hit. It would give her another form of skill expression by allowing the killer to bounce between survivors to slowly build condemn and give her some way to stop people putting a tape in mid chase. Helps bring back a bit of the condemn playstyle without being overwhelming like the old one and more engaging. She wouldn't have to commit to chasing someone with a tape until they are downed just to have a chance to combat the tapes.
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Even solely this change would make a substantial difference so this sounds good to me!
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Thank you for this post! Sadakos Lullaby is a unique sound but it shouldn’t be made so obvious for all to hear and see.
They also need to remove the directional audio cue that it comes with because apparently it’s by design. 😭😭
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Agreed!
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Please no what? Could you clarify please.
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Agreed! “The lullaby is alright, its just not really thought through. ”
I also agree on the first part too!
You CAN sneak up on survivors. Even on good ones.“This though, not so much. Doesn’t happen often at all” even when I do maneuver behind walls and objects. They just hear where I am coming from and where.
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She needs to keep it but it needs to be map wide and not directional audio as well.
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All stealth killers has a sound to counterplay their stealth
Wraith: grunts
Ghostface: Floppy clothesMyers: his breath
So that’s why Sadako and Dredge has those sounds. Remove it could make them kinda hard to counter
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