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How did killers manage to win when gen lasted for 80 seconds?

vBlossom_
vBlossom_ Member Posts: 459

Since yesterday I have been reading posts about how killers now ABSOLUTELY MUST use slowdowns to have any chance of winning the game at all.
This is simply ridiculous when you consider that:

  • Gens got buffed for killers:
    • Gen time increased to 90 seconds - survivors have to spend more time on gen
    • Gen tapping got removed entirely - gen regression got more viable
    • Basekit kick removes -5% - it removed 0% previously
  • Some killer actions was also buffed:
    • Kicking a pallet, kicking generator, cooldown after hitting survivor: 10% faster
    • Survivor's speed boost after hit got reduced by -10%.
  • Chase got buffed for killers:
    • Bloodlust is now 15/25/35 seconds (was 15/30/45)
  • Healing was nerfed:
    • Medkits now have 1 heal, all medkits are basically the same if you self-heal
    • Healing time in general got longer - it takes 24 seconds, was 16 seconds - any healing perk got nerfed because of that - healing took longer in general.
    • Haemorrhage in sloppy allows to completely neutralise healing and healing perks such as Reactive Healing, Solidarity etc.
  • A lot of survivor perks got nuked with nothing to replace them:
    • Dead Hard - guaranteed that it don't work during first chase
    • Spine Chill / Resilience combo - entire "vault build" is removed, killers now have guaranteed easier chases
    • Prove was nerfed because people don't even know how it worked and assumed that survivors got 15% buff to gens, it's actually laughable that some people still assume that this perk guaranteed wins for survivors.
    • DS is ridiculous with those constant changes.
    • Entire mechanics with "perk disables in endgame", because idk, why not?
  • Don't get me started on all new killers that have some kind of teleport ability or multiple negative effects such as Skull Merchant.

I wonder how killers managed to win those games back in the day and how they still need more "encouragement" to play nice, given that after all of the changes above (the ones I've remembered, not all of them) we still in every game saw S-tier killer with broken perks and busted addons.

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Comments

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,128

    If you're advocating for the game to allow for more freedom of mistakes, it works for both sides not just one.

    There are survivors who still run boon totems in the current meta, more commonly in groups so the time spent booning is made up with better efficiency and co-ordination

    Going on a treasure hunt via chests is detrimental regardless of 2 years ago or now

    People adapted? It's just like how people were losing chases early when old DH was freshly changed to Endurance based, fast forward a few months, people figured out when and where to press E.

    Perhaps, but I don't think it will revert to pre 6.1.0 state which shouldn't be what devs are aiming for anyway.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,128

    Increase in gen efficiency evens the playing field.

    If more Survivors did gens efficiently 2 years ago, the average game would be much shorter.

  • Neaxolotl
    Neaxolotl Member Posts: 1,477

    I highly doubt game balance changes affected them or anything, it's just time made them better

  • vBlossom_
    vBlossom_ Member Posts: 459

    You can list all things that survivors got, we'll laugh together :)

  • bornagain234
    bornagain234 Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 336

    Ever heard of MMR?

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005
    edited May 10

    Basekit BT + new OTR, in addition to other perks granting survivors 15 extra health states, without even considering giving killers basekit Lightborn, makes the game harder for survivors?

  • caligraph
    caligraph Member Posts: 359
    edited May 10

    back then we had original pain res, ruin+undying, and og PGTW in one build with old nurse/blight addons + no basekit BT. With some good ol fashioned tunneling not even the e key would save you for long…

  • MoNosEmpire
    MoNosEmpire Member Posts: 649

    You forgot the main buff for killers, survivors not being able to reduce the amount of sound they make, so killers effectively get a free 5th perk on top of all these buffs if they have a good headset, which most killers usually do.

  • Yharwick
    Yharwick Member Posts: 521

    "Bully" squads were much more common back then and while obnoxious to deal with it meant survivors focused on gens much less and with trying to screw with the killer more.

    Also Ruin/Undying was also the meta and forcing survivors to find two totems could sometimes buy you a considerable amount of time.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 5,332

    In the majority of games it really does not matter much what perks you use. Unless it's in comps, where I believe there is an argument for these meta perks, a Killer always has a fair chance regardless.

    My reasoning for this is that - as a randomizer - most of my trials involve little in the way of meta, yet my trials are fair for the majority and I get decent results. What I've learnt is many trials are winnable, but require experience, creativity, experience and practice.

    I feel some are too much of the opinion they are useless without the right perks to aid them. There are so many players out there who have the best perks, yet still struggle because they are too reliant and have not learnt the basics and gained knowledge, whilst allowing their own style to come through. Granted, a fair bit comes from the barrage of Streamers talking about optimal builds and such, whilst any who may mention or show it's not really necessary at pub levels are often ignored. I certainly know of OhTofu's randomizer challenges which evidence this well.

  • LeFennecFox
    LeFennecFox Member Posts: 1,292

    Well avg survivor chase/macro was way worse, there were still strong regression perks, and you couldn't stock up on a trillion strong items/addons as easily.

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,838
    edited May 10

    because the difference from 80 to 90 second gens is only 20-50 seconds, not just 50 seconds like many people like to claim. When multiple gens are worked on simultaneously, the difference is pretty minimal.

  • ReverseVelocity
    ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 4,575

    The basekit was worse, but the slowdown perks were better. 25% + 60s Pop, 200% Ruin (or even skillcheck Ruin if you wanna go that far back), guaranteed 2 minute Corrupt.

    You'd see Pop basically every single game for a period of time. Then it was Ruindying. Now it's Pop + Pain Res.

    Some form of slowdown has always been meta ever since Hex: Ruin released.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,703
    edited May 11

    I actually love that you brought up the gen kick/3 gen meta era (which greatly overlapped btw). I honestly believe that it's the primary cause, or at least the trigger point, to most of the animosity and division you see in the playerbase now. Simply put, the devs let it go on for way too long. Think about how many new killers joined during that time, who watched content creators, who learned the game based around that meta and therefore didn't know any other way to play. They wouldn't have known most games averaged like 10 minutes. That survivors whose games were going from 10 minutes to suddenly being stalled for up to a near hour were angry about that and not just salty that they'd lost. And then while this was going on, survivors were adapting and basically glueing themselves to gens because to do anything else would risk the ire of team mates who didn't want to be stuck in a stalled game.

    I remember when the meta was broken, imagine how that rug pull must have felt to killer mains who didnt know any other way of playing (I feel bad for new killers during that time, older killers not so much as I feel like they should have known better). And the complaints after about survivors genrushing were the highest I'd ever seen. Because survivors during that era had essentially trained themselves to avoid all objectives besides gens, and new survivors in that time learned to play in that manner too. I'm honestly only starting to notice a bit of leniency on that in recent months. More and more survivors are comfortable opening chests or messing with totems, but I know I still feel a pang of guilt every time I do so. Like my team mates are now going to hate me. I think it also influenced alot of the animosity solo team mates have towards each other currently. And since that era it feels like balancing for the devs has been a real juggling act to try appease everyone while simultaneously getting the game back on track to what it used to be.

    Survivors don't want to feel glued to gens anymore but regression perks make them feel they have to, while killers don't want to learn macro gameplay but survivors glued to gens makes them feel they have to. And honestly it's all because of that era.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 1,015
    edited May 11

    If you are good at the game, you can win most of your killer matches without any perks whatsoever. Not even tie, not "compete" - win, 90-100% of your matches, many of them decisively. Not just not using slowdown perks, not using any perks, nothing to help in chase, no info perks, no stealth, nothing. This has been proven time and again throughout the years by good killer players on streams, including years and years back when the game was objectively much more survivor-favoured. Knightlight most recently did a "3/4k on every killer without perks/add-ons" streak, obviously completing it on the first attempt. Off the top of my head I know two more streamers that recently did similar things, namely Lionnek and Kaiizoru. I myself sometimes go loadoutless, play in a gloves-off manner, and win much of the time doing so.

    This is not to say the same would be true if you actually faced equal opposition that is also armed to the teeth, but that simply factually almost never happens for good players. Even just facing 4 decent survivors is vanishingly rare, such that even really rather mediocre killer players win decidedly more often than not.

    The announced slowdown nerfs are inconsequential for good killer players, and even just decent killer players will be perfectly fine (especially when keeping in mind that winning every match is of course not a reasonable target). It might have more of an impact in the mid-range, but then not only are there also survivor perk nerfs here, but the slowdown nerfs are really rather negligible in themselves.

    Deadlock loses 5 seconds per activation, so it will lose a total of 20 seconds slowdown out of 120. As if 20 seconds are going to completely change a match. Yes it can have an impact at times, but it's unlikely to on average, and it also has to be kept in mind that the 5 seconds only matter if a survivor is actually at the gen the very moment it unblocks, which is not what usually happens as survivors venture out to do other things during the block time. There can actually also be edge-cases where the shorter Deadlock time can benefit the killer, such as by allowing them to earlier use regression perks on that gen (including Pain Res), as well as making it so the same gen gets Deadlock'd twice in a row when otherwise it could have still been blocked from a previous Deadlock proc, preventing it from getting blocked again. Grim Embrace loses 2 seconds per proc, 6 seconds in total, so it goes from 76 seconds of blockage to 70, a reduction of a couple percent. And this again only matters if a survivor actually is at the gen the moment it unblocks, which is more typical for Grim but still far from what happens every time, Grim too will often lead survivors to leave the gen to do other things and return more than 10 or 12 seconds later. I will say that I absolutely don't think these perks needed nerfs, and any second lost here does feel annoying, but again, it won't have much of an impact.

    Pain Res goes from being able to regress 100% of gen progress to 80%, which I do find is a more significant change, especially because it as opposed to the aforementioned perks is not a guaranteed proc (you need to get to a Scourge hook), and because it might not even get its full regression power simply due to a gen it applies to not having 25 or 20% worth of progress. While it has to be noted that Pain Res does more than the initial regression (it can also cause a progress freeze for 3 seconds, as well as continual regression of course), I think this nerf is not good. It may be the most popular killer perk, but it's also a healthy perk that encourages spreading hooks early (to an extent anyway; this aspect of the perk - and various other perks - could definitely be honed in on more) as well as leaving the hook to pressure the affected gen (as opposed to gen blockage perks that you can get full value out of even when camping). I would also argue that Scourge perks should be strong not only because they are a perk type, but because that creates an interesting dynamic with Sabo strategies, something the devs have always seemingly wanted to be more relevant, and are buffing in this very patch. If anything, Gift Of Pain and Floods Of Rage (and Monstrous Shrine) should get buffed. Gift Of Pain at the very least needs compensation for the Mangled/Hemorrhage nerf.

    The Weasel nerf is the most significant out of all of these, but at the same time I think this is also the one perk that needed nerfs. It has no limit to its potential procs (well, hooking and regression events, but once either comes into play with regards to Weasel the game is already won) and can regress up to ~30 seconds at a time. It really is ridiculously strong and doesn't even have any "healthy" aspects of encouraging spreading hooks or not returning to camp and tunnel after kicking a gen. While I would have wished for them to nerf strong slowdown perks like these in a way where they get worse if the killer is tunnelling (and better if they're not), such as in the example of Weasel perhaps making it 30% regression on first hooks of a survivor, 20% on second hooks, and 0% on third hooks, or only being able to cause regression on the gen furthest from the hook that has progress (highlighting its aura for the killer, causing 40-50% of regression if they kick it), I don't mind this nerf and think it is called for.

    These slight nerfs will be more noticable in builds where people stack multiple of them, but that's a good thing because stacking slowdowns has always been a problem. It can also be pointed out that there are still really potent slowdown perks that have not been touched, such as Corrupt, Dead Man's Switch and its synergies, Pentimento. Although I will also say that I miss buffs to lesser slowdown perks here. As it stands, this is really a poor excuse of a "meta shake-up" attempt, where people will just keep using the same perks because they are still the best, just ever so slightly worse than they had been. It almost feels as if BHVR simply included all of these miniscule number changes to some of the most popular perks to make the update look more significant than it is. I would like to see improvements for Call Of Brine, Overcharge, Ruin, Surge, Oppression and Eruption, all of which (except for Ruin of course) have been compromised by the regression event system. COB and Overcharge were overnerfed, but with Eruption not being what it used to be, these two perks deserve to be better. COB could be 200% again, for its 60 seconds. Overcharge should either have a more difficult skill check (half or at least only 66% of its current size), or cause the continual regression to grow from 100 to 150% base regression. Eruption has been hit particularly hard by the regression event limit, it at the very least could do with a change where instead of regressing affected gens and incurring a regression event, it either blocks the gens for 15 seconds or causes a 50% repair speed debuff on the gens for 20-30 seconds (still causing continual regression in either case). Oppression simply does not need its ridiculous cooldown. I think it could even exist without a cooldown altogether, again all the more so in the regression limit reality we are in now. And Ruin in my opinion should be 200% base regression again, albeit also automatically disabling itself again if a survivor dies. Surge could also proc on downs achieved through special attacks.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    Yesterday I had a Knight tunneled Ada, so she suicided on 2nd hook at 4 Gens left. I & Kate also just gave up on hook too (it was crazy that both I & Kate able to kobe. But then Kate just back on hook to die, then killer downed me and slug for Cage, after slugged me for nearly depleting my healthbar, killer picked me up so I would not die and kept using aura perk to find Cage.

    Then killer dropped me (still think I was afk) to hunt Cage, and put him on hook. It would be funny if I decided to go hide and find Hatch, but I just run back to Cage hook so killer could get 4K.

    Who know if the killer's family was in danger if they didnt get that 4K.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,034

    Actual viciousness

  • Ohyakno
    Ohyakno Member Posts: 1,206

    It's remarkable that no one remembers old Moris.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 381

    Yes. Basekit BT is no where near what original BT was. Being able to unhook and give both players BT was massive and very frustrating to play against. Also working in the endgame made a difference.

    OTR is the same. It's a good perk don't get me wrong but it's nothing compared to running old BT, DH, or the original DS.

    The basekit additions are awesome and meant to help with certain playstyles. That doesn't change the fact though that things like BT were once way stronger than they are now, even if they required a perk slot.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 381

    Oh lord I remember when I first started playing. It was just a little before Leatherface came out. If we got hit with thana and the rare user of dying light it felt like game over lol. First hook felt horrible and got worse from there.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,860

    It's not like the killer can goof off either. The difference was that one side could chill and easily win while the other was sweating for their life. Now both have to play serious. This is natural for a somewhat competitive game.

    Both sides have a bunch of perks that will never see use. Fixing this by making one side so strong that they can afford to do side objectives while still winning is not an option though. Because then, what happens when they do focus on their objective and seriously try to win?

    Back in the day, there were the so-called depip squads (some still exist), that would only go into a match and focus on winning so fast that they would lose pips. It was barely in the realm of possibility to beat them and not for their incredible skills but simply because survivors were so much stronger than killers at the time.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,877

    While I agree with you overall, it's worth mentioning that healing times were NOT nerfed across the board. That change was on the 6.7.0 PTB, but it was scrapped before coming to live, being replaced with the medkit nerf we actually got.

    For the record, you're right to say that killers don't NEED slowdown and these nerfs aren't going to make killer gameplay impossible, but that specific example of why isn't true.

  • bjorksnas
    bjorksnas Member Posts: 5,621

    back in the day if survivors tried to win they won hand over fist no questions asked no contest against all killers except nurse

    but when you mix the fact of solo queue not having optimal survivors, less indicators for what teammates are doing ect the game was much more casual so unless you got that 4 man sweat squad people played like half as efficiently because they just played for fun. Even if they could heal 2x as fast and 3x as much then top it off with a syringe or do 180 charges of the 400 gen charges at 140% the speed with a single toolbox with 2 addons people just played slower and it somehow worked out

    if we went back to how it used to be then with the knowledge and skills most people have now it would probably be an unplayable mess unless you play nurse 24/7

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,493

    Same way as they do now, by being able to win chases and knock down survivors to get hooks and eventually sacrifices