Genuinely... what is the objective with these balance changes?
- Survivors will now be able to sabo easier than ever (which just promotes slugging btw. not sure why that's what you want when it's been expressed as a boring way to play, you should be PROMOTING hooks. Not actively giga buffing things that counter it.)
- Killers will quite literally be left with ONLY pain res for a viable gen regress perk at this point. Everything else is god awful.
I do not understand the objective of this patch. Great new killer power, great new killer design, great new survivor design, interesting new survivor perks, just to get overshadowed by something as simple as game balance. That is horrid.
I do not understand the disconnect here with the devs:
"Hey BHVR, slugging and tunneling sucks!"
"Oh ok... we're going to buff sabo so the killer has no choice BUT to slug, which will also lead to them tunneling because they won't be able to get as many successful hooks, forcing them to just target one person! We're also going to nerf the only 2 remotely decent gen regress perks, and buff NONE of the other ones that we've butchered and left useless over the years! So to win games... guess what? More tunneling!!!"
Like??? What is not being understood here?
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Only pain res? Both Jolt and Pentimento exist
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Jolt is:
- Useless on maps that aren't indoor or small like dead dawg.
- Useless on M2 killers.
Pentimento… isn't a gen regress perk??? Also forces you to use other hex perks (usually plaything) to actually have survivors do hexes otherwise, they never will.
Post edited by Rizzo on16 -
I would assume that the idea is to give survivors incentive to leave the gens and do other stuff with their toolbox charges, hence reducing killers feeling like they need to rely on gen regression in the first place. I feel like there's way too much complaining about survivors playing around with stuff that keeps them off gens, then when that stuff gets removed the complaints start that survivors are genrushing.
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Promoting killers slugging… is not the way to do that.
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I think they're buffing sabo because it's not very popular and in alot of my experience, results in a trade. It's only really popular in swfs because you have to have good coordination to pull it off successfully. Also, less people on gens should help in the long run of the match, as I know many people find gen speeds overwhelming especially if survivors focus on nothing but gens and ignore everything else. Slugging is already pretty common, as is tunneling. So the threat of it happening more is sort've expected as it already does. Most everyone hates it but it still happens regardless of what you do. We will have to see if it makes a huge impact or not.
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They tried giving people Buckle Up as an incentive to interact and get people off gens. Since they now nerfed Buckle Up they are giving sabo'ing as a form of interaction.
Their objective is giving people who don't like doing gens something to do that also helps the team.
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Making entire mechanics dead for solo queuers that promote genrushing and ending the match as soon as possible because there's nothing else fun to do is not the way to do that either, following your own reasoning. Maybe consider playing the other side and realizing how sabo absolutely sucks without a 4 man squad, same for Boil Over and a cheese spot + anti-slugging build?
It isn'tt very popular, yeah. Sabo was nerfed years ago and effectively became a dead mechanic that only sees use in squads. Too hard to do consistently, requires the Killer not pay attention at all, and typically results in a trade. Hooks come back way too fast so the Killer can slug for 10 seconds, or just walk to another hook because they're strangely way too close on most maps nowadays.
TC is pretty casually showing their lack of experience with DBD by admitting they think sabo is a problem atm, and that sabo does not need help when it most certainly does.5 -
Sabo squads aren't a "problem" per se, but OP does have one valid point.
I ran into one yesterday, and it wasn't a problem for me personally at all in the sense that it was a 4K with extreme prejudice, but two of them were running No Mither so that even slugging them wouldn't work effectively, so I just tunneled and facecamped (waited until she could unhook herself and then pretended to leave) the most annoying one with the toolbox until she was dead, killed another, and slugged the last two survivors.
Last one I downed had No Mither in a deadzone, so I couldn't go back and hook the other one (who was also in a deadzone maybe 30m away) without her getting up, and I just ended up staying there and smacking her over and over every time she got up until they both bled out.
They were NOT happy campers in the endgame chat.
I don't make a habit of slugging everyone, but with that playstyle, what do they expect? If sabo becomes viable, it absolutely will encourage killers to use equally scummy tactics, and the kinds of survivors that run full sabo builds are the kinds of survivors who get emotional trauma from being dealt with that harshly (hypocritical, yes, but what are you gonna do).
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Just ran into another sabo squad. I guess they're practicing.
If there is one thing these types of people hate, it's getting a taste of their own medicine.
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Sabo, or how I learn to love the slug.
From someone who suffered through the OG sabo, if you deny me the hook I deny you ever being hooked.
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lol its all good! Every player in this game is a hypocrite at some point or another. We are all literally guilty of the crap we complain about, eventually. Blaming others for one's own behavior is the escapist route to dealing with being scummy.
Game on!
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I've only very rarely experienced a sabotage that worked without consequence. Most of the time it either ends up failing completely (either because they got there too late to do it before I could prevent it, or because another hook was easily available), or results in a trade. I do think it might be interesting to have a mechanic that affects wiggle progress or something to a higher level if you're on the ground near a sabotaged hook. That would counter the urge to slug after a sabotage I would think, no?
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I mean it's a really risky strategy even with these changes. At worst you are doing the killer's job for them, at best you are delaying another survivor's death by putting yourself in the killer's face, hoping the 1v4 pays off better than the 1v3.
Before these buffs sabo builds where only useful to noobstomp, and bhvr nows killers prefer to interact more with the survivors than deal with uninteractive genrush builds.
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I usually just tunnel that person out. If they complain in chat, my response is always along the lines of, "Well, my understanding was that you didn't want me to hook anyone else. You wanted all the attention for yourself, so I gave it to you."
I'm not "blaming" so much as pointing out that if survivors do X, I'm going to do Y, and survivors don't like Y very much.
I play like a complete scumbag in the first place. I always try to run the most OP addons I can and always tunnel at five gens (the above screenshot is not a typical build for me). But my goal is the win the match, not bully the survivors for no reason, so I'm typically not slugging people without a strategic reason.
I also don't do the stuff that I genuinely and truly hate. I never ran OG Dead Hard, and I have never once run BU+FTP, for two examples.
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Its a time investment thing.
The amount of time it takes a killer to:
- Find a survivor
- Hit them
- Hit them again
- Pick them up
- Walk to a hook
- Put them on a hook
Is far greater than the time it takes for a nearby survivor to just sabo a hook. And that's only factoring a single killer. Remember, a killers time is 4x more valuable than a survivors. So if it takes the killer 10 seconds to do something, that gives the survivors 40 seconds (or less if that 10 seconds is occupying 1 survivor).
So if it takes the killer 45 seconds to down a survivor, but a survivor only spends 20 seconds saboing a hook. You also have to favor in that the survivors had 135 - 20 seconds = 115 seconds of time. So the survivor spent less time than it took the killer to earn that.
Now, if saboing a hook meant you couldn't be on gen for say 60 seconds. That changes things, because now, the survivors make a risky play, gain a little time, but not a vast amount of time that the killer can't possibly make up.
This is compounded by the first chase problem as well. The game is basically decided by that first chase. If a survivor prevents you from hooking the survivor in that first chase, now you can't get your gen defense rolling, and slowing the game down. Because that first chase often costs you 2-3 gens so you are always playing from way behind.
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Sabo is definitely something they need to be careful about buffing, and I do think they understand that.
I will wait to see how it plays out; I find it equally likely that it becomes totally unheard of after two weeks or that it becomes a problem.
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But you tunnel out the gate. I am simply flabbergasted lol.
If I may inquire, I am truly curious right now and would love to ask some questions.
The comment "I also don't do the stuff that I genuinely and truly hate. I never ran OG Dead Hard, and I have never once run BU+FTP, for two examples.'
Do you not hate getting tunneled? Do you enjoy it?
Why did/would you not run OG dead hard? We're you not wanting to annoy/anger the killer player?
BU+FTP is a valid strat. Why would you avoid using it?
I ask these to try and get insight. I dont have your perspective on games and I would like to understand better. So why would you not do those things, but you would tunnel if it has the exact same affect as using OG dead hard or BU+FTP?
Thank you!
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Not the person you are responding to, but yeah, i like getting tunneled.
When playing survivor, the fun part of the game is the interaction i get with the killer. Holding m1 on a gen for 90 seconds is not my idea of fun.
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So, your entire specific scenario and attempts to math your way to balance here neglects how hooks are typically within 10 meters of each other. And how a Survivor has to predict which hook is going to be used, and get off of gens or other stuff to sabo that hook. Which all typically requires perks and such.
"And what if they ARENT???" Well that almost never happens so lmao And if it does, oh well. Just drop the Survivor and redown them once they get picked up.1 -
only one toolbox got a wroth while mentioning increase. Alex toolbox having a 100% sabotage speed while u can still put addons on it sound a bit to powerful.
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No, I don't like being tunneled at all, but, at the same time, I understand why people are doing it. I don't hold it against the killer (it's honestly probably a wise decision considering that I can't loop very well and I'm usually the biggest threat to generators on my team).
Old DH, old MFT, old DS during the endgame, and (soon-to-be old) BU+FTP are/were all just complete BS. I just didn't feel right running a get-out-of-a-hook-free card with zero counterplay, and, as a killer, I'll punish BU+FTP especially. If I see that combo, you are not leaving my lobby alive, even if it means I get a 1K with 8000 BP.
I guess I just see certain things like tunneling, godlooping, genrushing as things that annoy me when they're used against me, but still part of the game. The perks I listed above were just pure cheese to get an unfair advantage.
See, and my idea of a good time is staying on gens all game, not seeing the killer once, and making it out with a 4E.
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Might as well just the Hook where the person died on. At 5 Gens. I can clearly feel how you must be suffering in this game, having already a Kill at 5 Gens to go.
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I agree. I feel Im allergic to gens sometimes. (Might be a Plague lol) And as a decent looper I don't mind. Kind of do when its not me though. Hmm, think I just figured that out lol.
Appreciate the explanation. I don't agree as I see killer bias swimming in your words, but at the same time… I feel I'm seeing that due to my own survivor bias? lol I dunno. Calling it cheese and 'has zero counterplay' kind of misses a lot of marks for me. The exception is OG Dead Hard. That was a monster that I'd love to feed and pet again. (only in customs of course :P)
I dont/havent used BU+FTP or DS once in my life. Likely not changing as I feel DS is absolute krapp as a perk. The combo is balanced from my perspective since it need 2 survivors, all close to you, while not on gens, and getting downed, then running in to get them up, and getting away again. All this amounts to a net gain for the killer imo. BUt I play Trapper only so they usually go right into a trap. I feel for these other killers who claim to be high tier (Blight, Nurse, etc) and struggle with this. Just give Trapper a shot :)
Dead Hard will never leave my builds, regardless of how much BHVR stabs it, lol. But thank you for explaining.
That was quite refreshing and makes sense now. I really appreciate the explanation, as I said! GL in the fog!
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Oh, I wasn't suffering. That was all the survivors.
But my point in posting the picture was that the people who run these sorts of builds and follow you around all game trying to make it so that you don't ever get a single hook are not the people who handle things well when the killer responds with the obvious and logical counterplay.
That girl on the floor was obnoxious with her little toolbox, but she DC'd the very second I downed her for the first time.
It's hard to see how buffing sabotage in general is going to lead to more player happiness, but I personally do not mind.
I probably am biased. I try not to be, but honestly, if there were a killer perk that deleted all pallets and windows from the map instantly or regressed every gen back to zero every time you kicked one, I'd probably use it.
Still, if I hate something with so much passion that I'll actively punish for it in my own games, I'm not going to run those same things as a survivor.
Hard disagree about BU+FTP, but Chucky is also the only non-M1 killer I really play (and that's very recent). It's infuriating when there's one gen left and a survivor with Windows just godlooped Mikey for two minutes only for them to pop right back up just before the last gen pops (and then of course they're running Adrenaline).
There was never anything wrong with DS other than it being used offensively during the endgame.
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- Jolt only works with m1 killers, who are very weak themselves already. It is horrible on big maps, only decent on indoor maps. Also speedruns you to that 8x regression event cap.
- For Pentimento people have to cleanse totems…. which good players don't. Plaything is the obvious pick but good players will know you most likely pair it with Penti. Other option is a full totem build, but I can't see how a full RNG build is good. We both know the totem spawns on most maps… they're horrible.
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