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Why Protection Hits not considered Conspicuous Actions？
It's weird that some survivor use anti-tunnel Endurance or perk like [Off the Record] [Decisive Strike] to force killer hit them then tunnel them, use it to aggression body block or tactics.
But after they get Protection Hits, they still don't want killer tunnel them.
even killer Knock down and don't want pick them up they call it slug.
the issue is survivor not use it in scenarios that should be used.(tunnel)
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You can hit the survivor on the animation of the unhooking, and they took a protection hit, now they lost their anti tunnel because of that, not going to happen
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A protection hit is just a hit taken while being around an injured survivor, the game has no system to detect whether it was a survivor attempting to bodyblock the killer or just being around another injured survivor.
A guaranteed way to deactivate anti-tunnel perks with this system would be to proxy camp, hit the person doing the unhooking, then hit the unhooked survivor right off the hook, voila, they did a "protection hit" and DS is deactivated.6 -
you mean killer hit the saver then hit unhook survivor?
that make 2 survivor stand and moveable, killer only can case one survivor a time.
DS will be change to anti-tunnel but not anti-face camp tunnel.
anti-face camp tunnel can use [Reassurance] or [Camaraderie] [Self-Preservation] [Borrowed Time] (+10s haste) [Babysitter] (8s 17% haste=4.68m/s)
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Let's say the killer tries to hard tunnel someone out, other survivors try to bodyblock for the guy, because they don't know whether or not he has OTR or something else at hand. They either took a hit during the unhook or even before that, they are willing to go down for their mate that is dead on hook, killer somehow manages to sneak past and hit the other survivor... And now his DS turns off?? That is ridiculous... How about we just remove collision for the recently unhooked survivor? So he cannot be bodyblocked in basement or some narrow corridor or bodyblock the killer into hitting them... Sounds way easier and more effective.
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Because conspicuous actions are 100% of the time active decisions made by the player in question. If someone gets on a gen, starts to heal themselves or anything else like that, that was their decision to press the button to do so. This is very intentional design.
That is NOT the case with protection hits. A protection hit is simply being hit close to an injured survivor, and the system is rather generous in applying it as well. You don't even need to know the survivor is there, you could run from the killer and get hit with an injured Dwight sitting a bush nearby, and it'd be a "protection hit".
If you want to do something about people using anti tunnel mechanics/perks offensively you don't introduce something as frustrating as this, you make them just straight up not have collision while the perks are active so the killer can ignore them even if they try to bodyblock, just walk through them.
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If killer don't make Savior injured or that savior not injured when save that hooked survivor, that will not trigger protection hit.
Like I said, protection hit considered will make survivors rescue Smarter, protection hit only trigger in 10m, two survivor only need to run away 1.25s to make this 10m Distance.
Now the survivors almost have free 【Safe Hook Rescue】, 10s Endurance + 10% Haste make most of killer can't hit the survivor when their Unsafe Unhooks.
Survivors do the thing wrong, but they still get advantage.
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Example 1
Killer hooks player in Basement you go first in case killer has any type of 1 hit knocks
Example 2 Proxy camping
What you want would make the game even more easier to tunnel and or proxy facecamp.Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
You said [A protection hit is simply being hit close to an injured survivor, and the system is rather generous in applying it as well. You don't even need to know the survivor is there, you could run from the killer and get hit with an injured Dwight sitting a bush nearby, and it'd be a "protection hit".]
Yes, 10m around injured survivor can trigger protection hit. but hide injured dwight in bush Also is a decisions made by the other player, they can choose Run in the opposite direction 1.5s to avoid make anti tunnel perk failure or this dwight protect that unhook survivor, because that survivor will be Sacrifice instantly while next hook, but that dwight not be hooked once.The [not collision] will make other problem, survivor can have 80s hide in other survivors hit box to avoid killer attack, or make ohter survivor can be a killer only Blocking door.
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because there is no way to implement such a system that is not extremly abusable to tunnel someone while ignoring their anti tunnel perks that is also effective at preventing the use of anti tunnel perks to protect other survivors while also being relatively simple and easy to understand.
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Example 1:
A: Killer hook another survivor in basement
B: You go to rescue that survivor.
C: You get hit at basement entry.
D: You go down and succeed make that survivor unhook.
E: you get hit, you triggered [protection hit] event and get score, but that survivor not triggering [protection hit] event, so they DS is still working. you down in basement very deep, killer can continue case that survivor or pick you up then hook, that survivor don't have too much time to run away（attack cool down need 2.7s, pick up need 3 s, killer don't need to move, hook need 2s. is7.7s）
If killer want DS not working, killer can not hit you at E, killer need to hit that survivor, in this situation, you and that survivor both can move, and that survivor is faster than you, and you can run away 8s. If killer knocks you and pick you up, that survivor have 16.4s to run away from basement.
Example 2:Proxy camping
same but survivor can snake to Approaching the hooked survivor.
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Let [protection hit] event be a Conspicuous Actions only effect Endurance and DS.
The Endurance is normally be used when get hit, give survivor deep wound then Endurance be removed.
The stand survivor is More threatening than downed survivor to the killer.
if killer want attack unhook survivor trigger [protection hit] event to deactivate DS, killer will face 2 moveable treat.
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Once again you get unhooked the killer goes after you next to other player the protection triggers and opps you just lost DS it would be bad.
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Yes, NO DS.
but that be unhooked survivor have 10s Endurance to get hit then run away 20s(if have mft is 25s), the save guy is not downed, can heal or fix the gen, other 2 survivor don't need send other gut to heal or rescue this save guy.
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protection hit only give the man who be hit, not the guy who be protect.
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OMG, how hard it is?
Is good for survivor.
should I Draw a picture to explain why it good for survivor?
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sure. would be amusing.
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Sigh what the poster wanted is to remove DS to trigger if you protection hit that is bad.
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not remove ds, is Limit its aggressive use.
This change will help future perks gain more power, but will not be used to prevent killers case others, just preventing tunnels.
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The problem is what I just described. You proxy camp and I cant take a hit otherwise I lose DS perk since protection hit occur when another player is close by.
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need another player is injured by 10m.
if another not injured, it not trigger protection hit.
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So what happens with basement hooks or areas where is extremely narrow or cut off?
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Unfortunately I feel like you're arguing with a brick wall here, at best.
You've already pointed out that the most common scenario for this would be hitting the survivor immediately off hook, where the unhooker is 'nearby', which would count as a protection hit.
Since the survivor's only protection against camping is endurance, and the only protection against tunneling is endurance or DS, the OP is just asking to turn off camping and tunneling protections in that scenario.
Which means, if the killer wants to tunnel someone off hook, the obviously optimal play here is proxy camp, hit the unhooker on their way in, then hit the hooked survivor as their get touch the ground, which instantly downs them.
This is just an argument to go back to before base kit BT was implemented, and I trust that the devs completely understand the consequence of this. Them calling this 'good for survivors' is just gaslighting.
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endurance can be Conspicuous Actions disable.
but the way trigger Protection Hit is the Endurance unhook survivor get hit.
so it only dis able DS.
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You said it right here:
Let [protection hit] event be a Conspicuous Actions only effect Endurance and DS.
So you want a free down for being back at hook. Quit the bs.
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...well first off, we applaud you for actually doing as you said you would which rises you above many we see.
Second, we admittedly have some trouble with understanding the picture…
Third we don't think (see point 2) we see the scenarios the others were describing
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YES, [protection hit] event be a Conspicuous Actions only effect Endurance and DS.
but if hit the Endurance, the endurance work first, then [protection hit] event pop out to disable Endurance and DS.
This idea is came out at Endurance not disable after been hit, makes survivor can use off-record to take Multiple attacks only need heal deep wound.
but like the killer perk [Dying_Light]+[Furtive_Chase]+[Friends 'til the End], if killer hook the Obsession, Trigger order is [Furtive_Chase] then [Friends 'til the End].
survivors Endurance get hit first, then trigger [protection hit] event.
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The scenario you are describing in pictures a → b → c →d is equally likely to backfire as succeed.
Green goes in while full HP, and the killer hits them.
a) While the killer recovers Green uses the speed boost to get to hook and pulls blue off hook.Killer has recovered and now hits blue, which means blue has taken a protection hit but has gained a speed boost.
b) You now assume the killer hits green… which the killer doesnt have to do. So already blue is in a dangerous spot. Blue now has to run up the stairs through the killer and try to make safety.
c) At this point you also assume the survivor is away and home free... this is not true. Anything like a Trapper trap, Hag trap, Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Spirit, or Wraith can easily catch up and the survivor is far from safe... with DS no longer protecting them. Green is slugged in basement and not on gens, so this is good time efficiency to continue the tunnel. Your situation here is the ideal outcome, and doesn't consider the equally likely worst outcome.
There is another problem scenario…
a) After injuring green on the way in, the killer doesn't hit anyone... and instead body blocks the stairs. Blue never gets the speed boost and instead has to squeeze past the killer within 10 seconds, and obviously green will let them go first to have a good shot of getting out, so green is still there in the vicinity.
b) Killer hits blue after 10s, with green still nearby, that counts as a protection hit, blue loses DS even though the killer was expressly tunneling... therefore DS didn't even protect against the scenario it is supposed to protect against.
Even if blue squeezes past, the chance of them reaching safety is not good... So we never even make it to C.
Hope that clears up why protection hits disabling DS are a problem. You can't even tie it to endurance to mitigate this...
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[So already blue is in a dangerous spot. Blue now has to run up the stairs through the killer and try to make safety.]
nope, blue can go Through the killer. killer can't bodyblock a survivor that just be hit.
[c) At this point you also assume the survivor is away and home free... this is not true. Anything like a Trapper trap, Hag trap, Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Spirit, or Wraoth can easily catch up and the survivor is far from safe... with DS no longer protecting them. Green is slugged in basement and not on gens, so this is good time efficiency to continue the tunnel. Your situation here is the ideal outcome, and doesn't consider the equally likely worst outcome.]
if killer hit blue, green Definitely not in the basement, it can run away 2.7s（10.8m）, it Totally enough to run to the basement entrance and killer just finish the attack cool down.
[a) After injuring green on the way in, the killer doesn't hit anyone... and instead body blocks the stairs. Blue never gets the speed boost and instead has to squeeze past the killer within 10 seconds]
now basement stairs is Wider than before, killer is harder to block.
and…… anti camp makes killer can't camp Above the basement, need move Further, if camp at Basement entrance, survivor don't need to sand anyone to save, that survivor can unhook it self and get 15s Endurance＆15s 15% haste .
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You've still not addressed the issue at all my guy, Blue is not guaranteed to get to safety in either scenario, especially against stronger killers, and in both scenarios can have their DS deactivated through no fault of their own.
Killers are not dumb and helpless, we are pretty smart, and would absolutely be capable of abusing protection hits disabling DS in a large variety of scenarios. Especially someone like Pyramid Head.
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[a) After injuring green on the way in, the killer doesn't hit anyone... and instead body blocks the stairs. Blue never gets the speed boost and instead has to squeeze past the killer within 10 seconds]
green can use [Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe] to blue then get in locker, or use borrowed time
blue can use off-record.
can killer wait 80s? or 20s?
how folly the green are that he don't know get in locker force killer pick him up? 10s is enough let green Crouching and slowly in the locker.
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survivor are not dumb and helpless, we are pretty smart, and would absolutely be capable of abusing protection hits and DS in a large variety of scenarios.
even the version that killer can face camp and catch hook, survivor still can all escape.
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True enough, survivor can use Off The Record, Borrowed Time, Syringes. The difference is, this means DS is supplemented by other perks and abilities, therefore DS itself is not worth running, since you can use these things to achieve the same goal as DS and have perks/items for other purposes in your build.
This is compared to my scenario, which is literally just the killer being there with basekit abilities. I'm not going to say that DS is perfect, body blocking is still a concern, but that doesn't mean DS should be nerfed into a state where it's whole function can be subverted unless the Survivor commits half their build or more to make it function.
If we want to stop body blocking, while I'm not a fan of the idea myself, a far better plan is make it so collision with the killer is disabled while DS is up. This has other implicaitons, so i'm not keen, but between protection hits disabling DS and no body block with DS, the latter is the healthier for the game.
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no bodyblock with DS can be used at get in other survivor hitbox to avoid killer's attack.
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killer can use which perk to counter these? survivor have 16 perk 4 item 8 add-ons.
killer have 4 perk 1 power 2 add-ons.
survivor can use 2 perk(12.5%) to counter killer's 1 perk (25%) （No_Mither+Plot_Twist counter Corrupt_Intervention）
survivor can use 4 perk(25% [Distortion]) to counter killer all aura perk and add-ons unless killer have Undetectable/Small Terror radius/Oblivious
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No mither is a bad perk any use to justify its "pro" play is a joke
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No mither is good for 8.0.0
some "pro" league have restrictions on killer that killer can't make more than 1 survivor Lie on the ground, so No mither is useless in those league.
and that "pro" game Mostly not allowed survivor use all Toolbox with add-ons.
even killer carry [Corrupt Intervention] survivor use [No mither]+[Plot Twist], but survivor can't give killer pressure of gen Progress.
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so killer can not tunnel? even survivor do all thing wrong
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If unhook guy don't have bodyblocking to the killer, it will no bodyblock to other survivors. survivor team can craft an killer block door made by another survivor.
if that only work to the killer, yes that survivor will not use the anti-tunnel to aggression tactics, but killer also can't bodyblock the survivor that hook at Unfavorable location that survivor making mistakes loop to this location and been Knocked down.(like basement)
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More so the survivor cannot force the killer into hitting into his OTR or BT when the killer does not want to tunnel.
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That sounds like you have a problem with weakening hard tunneling one survivor off of hook? Why even?
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nope, I just Tired of 4 slug, and when I pick someone up, I have to deal with flashlight and broken hooks.
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Does not really get through with how you phrased it.
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I mean, is very easy to deal with trade.
Survivors who use their brains need to be rewarded.
not Brainless trade.
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