Can you, the developers, please address Tunneling, Camping, Slugging and Killer BM.
Every single modifier, seasonal event, new chapter it is the same complaints of killers are ruining my fun, hard tunneling me out the match, constant proxy camping or slugging and bleeding people out as well as humping them on the ground.
HOWEVER, the hate is ALWAYS directed at the killer. When in fact you guys are the ones allowing it to stay in the game without any solution. Base BT was added to offset tunneling, it's not hard to count that out and doesn't solve the issue. Anti face camp meter is a joke because fellow survivors have no way of seeing it go up to know to stay away, killers have adapted to just stay at range and approach as a survivor approaches because then the meter stops. Slugging is STILL unaddressed as is being bled out and humped.
PLEASE I BEG. Be open and transparent about what you plan to do to tackle these issues considering how vocally hated they are by the community. Even if nothing is in the works currently or upcoming. Please just acknowledge you are looking at ways to stop this happening and improve the player experience.
I don't blame the killers, you've made it the most efficient strat by nuking slowdowns and not gen speeds and also have openly endorsed it in the past. So why wouldn't they?
I am TIRED of the killer community copping the blame when you guys are the ones allowing such strategies and BHVR to flourish which cause the survivor experience to become rotted.
Please, these are complaints I have seen literally every single freaking day for YEARS. It's getting tiring, address them.
EDIT:
Survivors teabagging is literally not even in the same universe of slugging people for 4 minutes while humping them. Not even close.
Comments
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Well camping was fixed already, so there's one down.
Can we also address gen speed optimization from being so insanely fast, survivor BM and killer power disparity while we're asking for things like this?
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Camping wasn't fixed, how was it fixed?
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I feel the main change for tunneling is just to make the unhooked survivor have no hitbox (invincible) for a period of time that they can't bodyblock with, this keeps the game flow focus on the survivors who went for the unhook, stops off the record and DS from being used offensively as they can't stop the killer for going for the unhooker.
It also stops trap killers from abusing their strength to tunnel also.
That said this could be turned off in Exitgates being powered/EGC4 -
Since this comes up every. Single. Time. this mechanic is discussed in any way, people need to take their own pill here:
Camping isn't fixed. People are very clear that it's anti FACE camping.
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Survivors won't like to hear this but…
If you want killers to not tunnel and camp and slug and make base kit changes to that, you will have to lower the pressure on killer side as well. So that means extra time on objective(s) you know.
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It's really hard to address "tunneling" properly when a lot of survivor's definition of tunneling is overblown. They'll say they were tunneled but they'll never say they were on a gen, they were doing your totem, there's 2 gens left on GoJ and everyone is still alive or they were body blocking you with basekit bt it's so easy to just say "I was tunneled" not saying tunneling doesn't exist but everyone is apparently getting tunneled out every match
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Its common sense for survivors to spread up and do gens seperately. This however leads to the killer consistently loosing 3 gens in 90 seconds.
This is not good and leads to the killer tying to win in toher ways than getting many hooks.
However, just fixing this problem will result in chaos because one has to ask: what happens when a killer starts to tunnel / camp when a slowdown mechanic is in place?
Both problems have to dealt with in one go.
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I'm saying if the gen speeds were fixed, they could have a reason to fix tunneling.
As it stands now, if they remove tunneling as well, what are the worst of the roster going to do against a fully optimized team?
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Proxy patrolling isn't camping.
And if they return to hook and chase you, that's tunneling.
Otherwise, standing there near the hook has dramatically died down since the anti-facecamp. I play enough survivor to know this.
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Meanwhile: flashlights, flashbangs, blast mines, head-on, boil over + breakout, sabo, pallet saves and teabagging exist, not to mention OTR and basekit BT used for bodyblocking. So until all of this is removed, what you described should stay as some kind of retaliation killers can have.
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I'm literally a killer main and literally address why killers do it. So maybe read the post first instead of making it us vs them.
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Literally mentioned why I understand killers do the above as I am a killer main. DBD community challenge to not turn this into an us vs them discussion: impossible,
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The way some of you haven't even read the full post is so funny.
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I love it when people make threads like this. It becomes a cesspool of "Well if you get this, we get that.' etc etc.
lol I dont mind one way or another. But none of these things are an issue. Its merely the players. If BHVR 'fixes' all these things people dislike about the game, it stops becoming a game. It kind of already has, as people seem to complain more than enjoy. Thats the perception I get anyway.
Anyway, Players ruin the game, not BHVR or 'the game.' Not perks, not bad maps or SWFS, no tunnelers or campers…. Players. Just us players.
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They don't care. I had a match where a deathslinger was camping and kept going past me with nobody around, wasn't end game too and the anti camp meter wasn't going up. You got killers camping slugged bodies too and somehow there is no anti camp meter for slugged bodies which is so stupid. Had a pig camp a slugged body, nobody knew because they were crouching, all 4 players got slugged because of this. Saw a killer too camping 2 slugged players, despite a hook right next to them (I was spectating). Had killers camping above basement, anti camp doesn't go up. Game is a complete joke. First game I've seen that rewards camping.
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While I agree with OP, tunneling is actually a bit more complicated of an issue to fix. Lot of people will rage and scream at that but its true. Way I figure, there are 3 reasons Killers tunnel.
- They want to. Maybe its malicous and wanting to ruin someone's day. Maybe they are doing it for a meme, Lore Accurate Nemesis for example. Whatever the reason, the player themselves is going into the match knowing they will be going after a particular player for a reason.
- It's the best play. They may be losing gens due to bad calls or bad plays, they may have tried playing "fair" and couldn't snowball. Maybe they hooked a player, turned around only for a Survivor to immediately unhook them before the Killer could even step away, so now they want to punish the bad play. Plenty of reasons actually for tunneling to be the best option at that moment.
- The tunneling is accidental, which yes does happen. I'm talking the unhooked Survivor runs away and rounds the corner into the Killer, or the Killer goes to the hook and sees scratch marks going in two different directions and just so happens to pick the unhooked Survivor. In those instances, the Killer than makes the smart move and just downs the injured Survivor in front of them.
Now the question is, how do the devs fox any of these issues? The first point you can't really fix as players will do what they want. Base BT, less points, even game loss doesn't faze them. The 2nd points is what the devs acknowledge and do support, sometimes that is the best play and Killers should be able to make it to win. And third point again just...happens, so you cant really do much.
Obviously tunneling is more of a complicated issue than even what I put, but its not the black and white issue so many players try to make it.
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I can feel #2 really hard as someone trying to not run slowdown on weaker killers and still get complaints…
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This ^
People stretch the definition of "tunneling" wildly. I tend to rewatch any matches that had a streamer and it's crazy the amount of times people say the killer is tunneling when they're not. I would say actual true tunneling is pretty rare.
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I play both roles, and when I play killer and some survivor decides to use his BT/OTR to bodyblock, he is most likely getting tunneled right after that. Whenever I see a flashlight lobby, my loadout switches to the slugging build. Whenever a survivor decides to sabo, another survivor has to stay on the ground. And of course a few toxic teabags will increase the probability of some juicy end-game bleedout, maybe even with some back massage at that. So yeah, I know exactly why killers do all of this. Most of this is counter to what survivors do, with the only exception of instant tunneling from the start: that's just a cheap ez win strat that hasn't been fixed for 8 years.
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I'd like tunneling completely removed from the game, but the problem is that most people who want tunneling removed don't want the other changes that would need to come with that, IE slowing the gens down. We can't remove tunneling without also making it never necessary. They typically just want their problem fixed without caring about why it's there in the first place. The game isn't balanced around allowing 12 hook games against equally skilled players, that's just facts. The game is balanced around kills and expecting the killer to tunnel.
I don't personally tunnel as I think it removes skill from the game but I also understand that there are many games where it's necessary to win. There are also many games though where a killer pulls a win from tunneling where it wasn't necessary though and he just played bad but it still gave him the win regardless even though he didn't earn it.
In the same way that many killers can consider a game only winnable by tunneling even when that's not the case, they were just playing bad, there's also many survivors who want tunneling removed but not gens slowed down because they don't think gens are too fast, but just like killer it's because many times they're bad at the game and just propped up into wins by gen speeds and second chances, not their skill. While each side does have some validity to their core points, both don't want to acknowledge their poor skill in their perspective of the game balance.
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It's called proxy camping.
Because you're near the hook waiting. Attempting to change the sematics doesn't do anything but make it seem disingenuous.
The whole reason I bring up the 'anti FACE camping' wording is because that is specifically used to claim that the devs are ok with proxy camping. And it happens every single time someone ever refers to 'camping' in general since that patch.
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And yet, any time a killer is accused of it in my survivor matches, they aren't actually camping and are checking gens/lockers/totems/etc nearby hook. So calling it camping is a little weird.
I can recall maybe 2-3 killers my past week of playing who attempt staying near the hook and they usually lose 3 gens by the time I'm saved or died. I guess I just don't mind dying if the others manage to escape.
Post edited by ChaosWam on5 -
okey im gonna ignore all the gameplay aspekts you talked about since thats a mountain of stuff but i would like to adress the very last part the bm.
im a firm believer that every dev should have no tolerance when it comes to bm. for some reason gamer defend being a prick to other people like they cant have fun if they dont say/show the other player that they are better.
yes that stupid humping should go. hitting on hook should go and bleeding out should go but tbagging pointing after a pallet stun and waiting out the egc schould also go.
and since i know for a fact i will get people here that tell me im soft or i need to get help if bm in a game hurts me blablabla….
dont waste your time you will not change my mind and you will most certainly not get me to answer you and get into a fight about it. in every sport being a prick and taunting and badmouthing the other team gets you into trouble but for some reason gamers love that stuff. some even take it as some stupid batch of honor talking about how vile lobbys where once and they survived that cause they are so hard
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This is exactly the problem with this community. The idea that you want to be able to “retaliate” at someone because of the perks/items they’re given by the devs, rather than saying you need “counters” shows the mindset of yourself and so many others. Yes a lot of people engage in toxic behaviors just to be toxic like BM on hook, teabagging, flashlight clicking, humping on ground etc.
But the amount of times I’ve seen people on here get so angry when buffs are announced for one side that they say “FINE NOW IM GONNA PLAY LIKE THIS!” and it’s usually a way to retaliate or make the game miserable for the other player is mind blowing. Taking changes that the game developers make that you don’t like and taking that anger out on the players in the game is the foundation of what’s wrong.
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Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this community (and in gaming in general since this community isn’t the only one) who get off on making the game miserable for the other side. Thats literally their idea of “fun” and they defend it as if that’s actually normal, by calling it “winning.” “Winning is fun to me!” Great that’s fine but when your winning involves tunneling someone out at 5 gens so they don’t even get to play the game, or hooking someone and standing there and just hitting them on hook repeatedly until they die, I have to question that.
There was a post on here recently where someone complained about either a game mode or event or something and said they wouldn’t play it because it removed their ability to slug. They literally said slugging out all the survivors and making them bleed out was their fun/what they enjoyed and they were mad they couldn’t do it.
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Because camping cant really be fixed. Similarly to tunneling, it can only be discouraged. To completely fix it, the killer would have to be a bot.
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I honestly don't even care for a killer camping, tunnelling or slugging anymore but I can tell you that your change won't fix anything lmao. A player will always choose the path of least resistance to win, it doesn't matter on the game.
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This community is no different than any other, it's the game that is different. Yes, toxicity will breed toxicity, and the devs actively decide against taking away this aspect of the game. They surely know how maddening it can be to go against a 4man with sabo builds, and yet here they are, buffing sabo builds. When you get treated like crap by the other team, you will want to retaliate, and DbD community no different in this regard than any other. So up to now it's how the game has been designed: both sides have ways to ruin all the fun for the other side, and the spiral will continue. And I'm saying it all not as a "killer main", since I always play the role that gives +100% bp at the moment, so I've seen it from both sides. If the devs wanted to stop this toxicity contest - they would just remove flashlights, sabo builds, hook denial builds, head on and so on, and force survivors to play without mocking the killer, and then address the issue of tunneling and all kinds of BM from the killer side, but all of this is the opposite of what the devs seem to wish from their game. You could repeat the mantra of "it's part of the game so it's okay", but everyone knows why players usually use these builds and tactics and how it makes the other side feel. When you lose your hard-earned hook to a bully squad with buffed sabo builds, you will feel the wish to retaliate one way or another: you were intentionally annoyed, so you will want to return the favor. And any other game community would behave the same given the same conjuncture, it's just that all other game development companies usually avoid allowing players openly make each other feel miserable by in-game means, so it's BHVR and DbD who are unique here, not the community.
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You can still camp and proxy camp, the anti-face camp mechanic only helps against actual facecamping, and that's it.
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I see what you're saying 100%. But tunneling / camping / slugging totally removes the ability to play the game for the survivor. Sabo/Flashlight (even though I hate them) is a healthy game play element and doesn't shut down the killer's ability to stay in the game and play.
And the killer BM i'm specifically referring to is bleeding people out for 4 minutes and holding them hostage. Survivors have nowhere near anything on a similar level to BM the killer.
The latter 100% needs to be addressed. In regards to the former, The solution is a huge mechanic shift which probs won't happen so BHVR just needs to give survivors more stuff at base to counter these strats. I'm a huge advocate for basekit UB. I think BT should be 30 seconds. Make camp meter a visible UI element. DS should be both hooks etc…
So many many things could be done but they just let the us vs them continue, just bored of the community constantly making killers feel ######### for just using whats available and effective if they choose to. When the real problem is the devs not addressing it if its such an issue.
Over time they clearly think it is as well to some degree with the anti face camp feature and basekit BT and the testing of basekit UB0 -
Many changes have been introduced to combat all this, but ironically before all these measures were introduced, games were healthier.
It has been warned countless times that the current direction of the game leads to an increase in all of this behaviors. But hey, nerfs to weaker killers and nerfs to all kinds of generator defense are still applauded each patch...
Precisely now we have a game modifier that shows how bad the balance actually is. Everyone tunneling off the bat because the impact of the killer perks is much higher.
Maybe they thought that the killers would stop wanting to win or something. They should be thanked for the increase of toxicity.
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I make this point in my post.
I do not blame killers for using what is available to them to win, but I'm not an us vs them person. I can see why killers do it but also see how unhealthy it is for the game.
They need to give survivors way more stuff at base to discourage the BHVR or defend against it, but also address why killers are so reliant on these tactics (Gen speeds/repair perk/toolboxes) For example I think base kit corrupt would be incredibly healthy to slow down the start of the game for killers.
I'm just tired of the devs doing nothing despite the CONSTANT complaints literally every damn day.1 -
Can't really camp until endgame, and when that happens then securing a kill is your objective and all bets are off.
Proxy camping, as I said before, shouldn't be called that. I see people claim proxy camp when a killer hooks and then searches the area. Other survivors should be doing gens until a new chase starts or someone manages the unhook.
Ever since the anti-facecamp, I've seen far less:
- Basement Bubba
- Basement Trapper (To a degree, a well trapped killer shack is going to still be tough but Trapper needs an edge I guess)
- Wraith cloaking near a hook
- Facecamping in general before endgame
What I have seen more of is:
- High mobility killers not losing much ground compared to M1's (as usual)
- Survivors unhooking in the killer's face or right as they're about to leave
- Killers choosing the injured survivor over the healthy one in most cases (tunneling, as per usual)
- Higher use in slowdown/regression
- Survivors deciding not to trade hook states (debatable and depends on the killer, instadowners are tricky to play around if they stay in the area)
I'm sure there's more if I think harder but off the top of my head, yes, there's been far, FAR less actual camping and new problems people have become attached to like proxy 'camping' when really it's holding a position around the hook which isn't a perfect scenario for every killer.
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Well with no gen defense in this new mode about 95% of the killers do not have time to go round hooking people 1 by 1 so they resort to other methods.
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Devs have made clear that theyre unwilling to make any base game changes that would benefit the game as a whole.
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Like where does that end tho? People would want hooks removed if that was possible. All I see is take take take from either side with nothing to compensate. If anything, Id like to know if at higher MMR if any of this is that much of an issue at lower MMR. Because at some point you have to ask yourself if it's honestly something wrong with the game or is it a skill issue?
Maybe that's why BHVR avoids the topic because they don't want to tell their community that a lot of them are not very good.
I am not trying to be mean but like the line has to be drawn somewhere. Can't completely remove all options of one side of the game.
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It's fine to call proxy camping proxy camping in my opinion. No matter what we call it though, fact is it's not fun to go against, as it has almost the same effects as hard camping.
And yes, normal camping is still possible, you just can't stand as close to the hooked survivor anymore, but that doesn't change much.
It's an anti-facecamp mechanic, and that's it. It doesn't really do anything against normal camping. I don't see camping that often either, but when it happens, it's extremely annoying and frustrating to go against.
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- What’s wrong with humping, if I get t-bagged by them then that the only time I really do it.
- People saying that tunneling needs to be removed or punished don’t look at most cases, the killer sees scratch marks and has a 50/50 chance of getting the unhooked survivor, Or they run into the killer by accident.
0 - What’s wrong with humping, if I get t-bagged by them then that the only time I really do it.
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Patrolling a hook is DEFINITELY not the same as facecamping, except in the case of insta-down mechanics.
More than half the time it's still possible to get the unhook and run to a safe loop.
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Some survivor players will never be happy with any system that isn't guaranteed free unhooks.
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Tunneling will never be addressed
Its the only way to play killer
Hence the Decisive Strike nerf
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so true. i often come back to the hook since everyone and there mother can block my aura reading but since i dont stalk around the hook just to wait for an unhook i relie on the scratchmarks. its 50/50 and i wont just ignore you and loose more time just cause you are the unhooked guy.
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