Help with understanding hugging loops
Can someone please help me understand how much value it is to hug loops as a Survivor? I know that Survivors hug loops very tightly but I have some questions:
- Do Survivors have a smaller hitbox that lets them hug loops better than killers? As in, do Survivors have access to a type of pathing that Killers do not?
- How much of a difference does it make? Is it where a bunch of tight hugging maneuvers actually give good distance?
- I noticed when Survivors hug a loop they slide a lot around them. So I can hug a loop but do I have to be careful at how much I hug into it? It looks like they are running into the wall when wouldn’t going forward be faster?
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me learn.
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The primary reason you'd want to a hug a loop as survivor is because it lets you cut corners, think of it like race-car drivers sticking to the inside lane on turns
You want to be as close to the loop as possible in order to cut off those precious few milliseconds
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Right I get that much. I guess my questions are a little more about how exactly it works.
Shortest path, got it. But can the Killer do it? The same as the Survivors? How much actual value results? And also, can you hug too tight that it slows you down?0 -
You can’t really hit too tightly as a survivor and yes, Killer can hug loops as well, however, I wouldn’t recommend it in a lot of loops, as they often have terrain that they can get stuck on, Plus, if you’re playing a killer like Billy, Bubba, Wesker, and other killers with dash powers, there’s a good chance you’ll hit the loop while hugging it, making you slow down and waste your power
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i personally find it a bit difficult, and sometimes i get stuck on tiny obstacles around the loop
this structure of the autohaven maps for example has a very tiny obstacle right next to the window and, trying to get enough distance for a fast vault, i get stuck on it instead.
i also never manage to get this fast vault on haddonfield, even if i hug the little fence where the pumpkin head is
hugging loops and looking back at the same time is also a struggle for me
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- Yes survivors have smaller boxes than most killers (think the only exception is Chucky and Victor). They can hug loops tighter and cut corners better than killers.
- It makes some difference (couldn't tell you how much truly). It maybe may make a difference in bout 1/5 matches but that's a simple guess.
- Yes you need to be careful though for reasons Dragon Master Darren said.
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Wow okay. Thank you all for answering. So about point 3… how much of an angle can a Survivor lean into the wall before it slows their move speed down? It’s not 45 degrees is it?
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Oh okay gotcha. Thank you for answering 😊
So when it comes to terrain that can get players stuck… I know it’s the small debris props/ rocks that you see in loops that stick out.
My question: Do there exist objects in loops that Survivors can lean into and automatically slide around that instead make the Killer get stuck on?
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I see. Interesting. Thank you for answering.
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Think it depends on the loop in question. We have it on instinct so any exact information on execution isn't going to be super reliable from us. Defiantly not 45 though.
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You should think of this game like a fighting game, frames matter a lot. It can and will be the difference between getting hit at the window and getting away.
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Yeah huh? I’m starting to see that.
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Survivor hit boxes are straight up and down and do not match the lean of the model at all. So when a survivor is leaning heavily into a wall, whether injured or not. The hitbox is one uniform cylinder that does not deviate in any way except when crouching. So there is no penalty for hugging walls besides loops with object collision stuck to the like a totem or something that will stop you dead in your tracks.
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Oh wow… That’s very interesting. All of this info is really changing how I see the competitive aspect of this game.
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As others touched on, a huge part of the survivor skill cap is learning what tiles and textures to hug and which ones will screw you over.
As a general rule of thumb: if you're approaching stairs from an angle, you can aim for the second step and clip onto the stairway without losing speed or distance. If you aim at the 3rd step, you get stuck. If you go wide and take the stairs like a normal person, you lose a ton of distance. This is especially useful on the Dead Dawg main building loop. It's critical to hit the stairs at the correct angle at the back of the building after taking the side vault.
Dead Dawg is another good example of learning which map textures are problematic. There's a spot on the wall of the back stairwell about 3/4 of the way up that you can get stuck on if you lean into the wall. It's most likely a texture bug, but I doubt it will ever get patched. It's one of those things you kind of learn through trial and error and adapt to in your pathing.
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The messed up part of it this was known forever ago but the Devs went out of their way to claim they were the same size. Even to go as far to show the characters pill shape box during the old Dev streams. Think it was sometime after these forums was launched when they admitted survivor hitboxes were smaller.
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Wasn't that to show survivors were all the same size or something about huntress hatchets?
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Nope, was way before that. They had a Trapper and survivor next to each other.
The one youare thinking about was the survivor hitbox while standing and crouched to show why hatchets could "hit" a survivors head but pass through without.
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Having goldfish memory(ies) suck sometimes
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What I don't understand is that it feels like survivors glide off obstacles but killers feel like they stick to them like glue at the slightest touch.
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i believe, this one?
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it's actually kinda fun, that even there you can see, that hitboxes are indeed different
i was moving it with left/right arrows. Also, sorry for russian and for paint 😅
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🤗 you got it.
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Experiments have been performed on goldfish where they have to push specific buttons with their orange noses to get their food. Then they take that apparatus away then bring it back another day and they still know which button to press. This has shown that they have quite decent memories, possibly lasting months.
It might be better to say, "I have a memory like a @Rulebreaker."
Back the the point though, it's also a little harder for less-experienced killers to hug the walls due to the first person perspective so that can make a difference.
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Yes but are we getting food for remembering any of this? (If we are supposed to be someone's been ripping us off)
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- 1. Yes. For simplicity imagine a circle as a loop and the killer's and survivor's hitboxes as smaller circles with the survivor's circle being smaller than the killer's. To do a full loop you need to follow the big circle's circumference. But since neither the killer nor the survivor can glitch into the big circle, their own hitboxes extend the radius of the actual circumference they need to follow by the value of their respective radii.
So if the loop had a radius of 5 units, survivor radius of 1 unit and the killer's radius was 1+x units, we'd get a circumference of 2 * (5 units + 1 unit) * pi ~ 37.70 units for the survivor and 2 * (5 units + 1+x units) * pi ~ 37.70 units + x * pi units. Luckily, most loops are more like rectangles and triangles, which means, that the killer only looses ground on each corner.
2. That depends on the killer, the loop and how well you can actually hug the loop. In general it's pretty good against all killers but some like Bubba, Billy, Wesker and Demo (killers that go out of their way not to hit obstacles with their power) are more affected by it. As for which loops it is most helpful on, a good rule of thumb is: "The more corners it has, the better hugging becomes."
This is because running in a straight line will cause you to lose distance but you make a bit of distance every time the killer has to run around a corner. If a loop has at least 3 corners, than hugging it will already give you an advantage (consider a straight wall a loop with 2 corners). On some loops it can grant you an extra run around the loop before you need to drop the pallet on others it can be even more. Especially, if it's a killer that will not hug the loop as tightly.
A Bubba for example might hit you easily, if you run around the loop like normal but if you hug the loop tightly, the extra distance you get from each corner can make it close to impossible for him to hit you with the chainsaw, which means he will have to rely on a M1, which takes longer and doesn't insta down. This is why a good Bubba is so scary. Because he will know how to tightly hug a loop too without bumping.
3. As long as you are not leaning into the wall too much, the game will correct your momentum forward. It's similar to a Hug Tech, where the game registers that you technically connect with something and cannot pass through but you also don't bump, so your momentum is shifted in the right direction. However, as soon as you reach a corner, the obstacle will no longer block your way so you can move around it tightly.
It also depends on the loop of course because on some loops you can get stuck pretty easily while on others you can lean into them like you're covered in butter. Loops with bad collisions are usually the same for killers and survivors (few exceptions). Basically any bush or tree with low hanging branches as well as those forked trees on Badham cannot be hugged too tightly.
Post edited by Xernoton on1 - 1. Yes. For simplicity imagine a circle as a loop and the killer's and survivor's hitboxes as smaller circles with the survivor's circle being smaller than the killer's. To do a full loop you need to follow the big circle's circumference. But since neither the killer nor the survivor can glitch into the big circle, their own hitboxes extend the radius of the actual circumference they need to follow by the value of their respective radii.
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It depends on the killer I guess but figuring out the tightest path to loop is very important against most killers but against the unknown it's not always a good move due to his ability, I'll use a good example though with huntress
She's a 110 killer so getting the most out of every loop is important she's already slower than other killers and if she pulls a hatchet at the pallet everytime you're going to want to be hugging to get distance around the loop before she can throw the hatchet and everytime she pulls her hatchet she loses bloodlust so you can essentially keep her at one pallet for a very long time if you play it right in that situation and not throw the pallet for a free hatchet hit on yourself.
But if you don't hug the loops she can catch you with a m1 without struggling and not even have to use a hatchet because you're losing distance at every corner and against a 115 killer not hugging loops leads to an easy 2 tap, but like others have stated you have to find a way to loop tight without getting caught on things which is where the challenge lies
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Hugging a loop maximizes the lead you have going around the loop, survivors have a smaller hitbox allowed them to loop tighter around the loop, so if even if the speed difference between killer and survivor is 100% survivor speed and 115% killer speed the effective speed difference can be different if the survivor can loop tighter than the killer, making it closer to a 114 or 113 or even more depending on the difference in efficiency between you and the killer because the path a killer has to take can be 5 ~ 10% longer than a survivor path around the loop due to hitbox size
Its a small difference but its constantly adding up, but its all dependent on the loop and the killer on some loops and depending vs some killers it can let you eek out enough distance for another loop, vs others it might mean the difference between a safe pallet drop and risking a hit.
You don't lose any speed for sliding against a wall with almost any angle.
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Wow thank you so much for the explanation Xernoton. It’s so interesting how these small details add up to big gameplay advantages.
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@the_krapper Interesting info, thanks for sharing it!
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Thanks for replying. Yes I tested out the angle and it does seem to be a little more than 45 degrees that you can run into the wall and still go max speed.
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