How fun and fair is to play soloQ with ~39% escape rate?
Killers are the power role here and that's how it should be, its 4vs1 game. However, how the hell is soloQ fine being the most underwhelming, underpowered, weak, no coms role to play?
SWF groups have slighty higher escape rate, with over 40% yet soloQ can't even have that. This role needs some serious buffs to make it closer to SWF escape rates.
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I play mostly soloq.
Its sometimes fine, soometimes miserable. However, I have to say, that most of the misery comes from the survivors. Not the killer.
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I have fun in SoloQ, that being said, it would be disingenuous for me to ignore the pitfalls and issues of SoloQ. SoloQ needs a lot of help, I think Kindred basekit would be a fine addition, maybe even a "Call-Out Wheel" like DBD Mobile has.
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SoloQ can only be saved with a proper MMR. There are players that queue up for a trial, but once they are in a trial they simply don't seem to play DBD.
Instead they play duck-and-cover-simulator, totem-cleansing-simulator, open-all-chests-simulator, unhook-simulator or urban-evasion-simulator
First and foremost it's the people that have a major impact on a trial, and to a lesser degree the tools they have at their disposal (which doesn't mean this could not be improved as well).
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Personally I like killers feeling like a strong threat as a soloQ player.
Watching the killer getting run in circles by a coordinated SWF tends to be kinda boring a lot of the time, and the fun instead comes from goofing around and screwing over the killer, such as using crap like Plot Twist with Power Struggle and Flip Flop, with a teammate using the threat of background player to buy time. It's funny, but it doesn't create the atmosphere I usually want in DBD. Usually the SWF game is lost by said attempts to mess with the killer going awry.
Frustration with SoloQ teammates therefore comes with the territory. Sometimes you will get amoebas that totally screw the pooch and make a game insufferable… you can also get games where every player is on point and killer gets totally smashed like they are playing vs. a SWF.
The average soloQ experience for me is tense… where you try to disrespect the killer at your own peril, and if you seriously play to win, it's a challenging, sometimes frustrating, but potentially very rewarding experience most of the time. If SoloQ always felt like SWF games… it'd be hard to ever take the game seriously as a survivor, cause everyone would and should jsut be screwing with the killer at all times.
Which coincidentally is the problem TCM is facing right now, and noone wants to play family…. which sounds eerily familiar to how old DBD was as well, where everyone goofed off playing survivor, and no one wanted to play killer.
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I go into SoloQ expecting difficulty and attempting to overcome it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. That's how games are. Most of the time, i still prefer it over playing killer.
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If your escape rate in soloQ is even remotely near 39%, I must say you are one lucky soloQ survivor.
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The main issues of solo queue are matchmaking and players being bad. It has nothing to do with balance, IE “buffs”.
I get those miserable solo queue games that are auto losses because of my team as well, but if you yourself are actually a good player you can do well on average. I’ve tracked my solo queue games over the last 100 matches and I’ve got roughly a 76% win rate. I exclude DC matches as the devs do as well and I also exclude if someone removes themselves on hook as that’s the same as a DC but even worse since you don’t get a bot. Most matches that actually play out without people giving up go quite well.
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Where on earth have you obtained these stats?
BHVR have nevered publisedh anything, nevermind a useful stat regarding the huge imbalance between solo and SWFs, it's one of the reason why solo play is so unfun.0 -
If Solo Q Survivors would simply get it through their heads that a DBD match is not about playing Musical Hooks and started working gens, Solo Q would quickly improve by several orders of magnitude.
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They did a few months ago, and the difference ist not that big (excluding high mmr 4man SWFs)
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I kind of wish they balanced the game more around a 55% kill rate. I get why the kill rate is supposed to be over 50%, but 60% seems a bit excessive to me.
They could easily buff solo survivors by giving them more information, or nerf tunneling and camping. Because solo survivor can be quite rough at the moment, I agree with that.
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That really isn't "lucky" considering that's the average escape rate.
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How you intend to deal with situations where team mate just suicides on the first hook?
Low escape rate in SoloQ is massively influenced by troll behavior from survivors who literally refuse to play and let killer snowball and dominate. SWFs don't have this issue by default unless entire SWF group decides to throw. As for communication - the only bit that can be improved here is letting SoloQ players see each other perks while in the match. Everything else is pretty much opposed ( voice chat for example ) and I doubt devs will add a text chat mid-game instead.
Post edited by Green_Sliche on3 -
The stats show that solo q and SWF are extremely close, because the vast vast majority of SWFs are 2-SWF and 3-SWF at average MMR. This means that most of the people in SWFs are actually extremely close to solo q for survival rates.
Many people forget that 2-SWFs without voice comms are still considered playing in a SWF……
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Maps will only get smaller, killers will get more buffs, survivors will get more nerfs, kill rates will increase.
It's only going to get worse for survivors.
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How is that? The devs are aiming for a 60% kill rate, so why would it get worse? Not to mention killers are getting all of their best slowdown perks nerfed in the next update.
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It really is. Once you actually play solo Q for a couple days you realize quickly that the win rate is below the 40% mark. The devs just exclude DC's but it no reason for me as player to. These matches was L's and most of time players DC when losing. No these matches did not magically get erase form my mind so I'm not excluding them for my status. I went through the experience! why wouldn't i count these matches.
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Chase the killer for 3min while no one dose gens only to be left on the hook till the 2d state for your team to make a last minute unsafe save for you to immediately be tunneled out of the game.
∆ SOLOQ ∆
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I think DbD has a pretty big journey vs destination problem. The devs seem fairly hyper focused on the 60% kill rate target, but you have to arrive there in an organic way.
It often feels like matches are scheduled wins and losses where there's little to no outcome variance if that same match was played 10 times. Teammates are often so bad that the game isn't winnable, or the killer is so overmatched that they only manage a couple hooks. Trials are very often complete blowouts in one direction or the other. The actual close, tense trials that could go either way are the rarity. It's another relic of symmetrical pvp SBMM taken without context for DbD and its asymmetry.
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What would you think about trying to bring the outliers in and how you would personally do that?
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Generally speaking we're fine with dying as long as it's an exciting trial. That's where the problem lies as a lot of people play the exact same way (bless chaos shuffle for the diversity) and that makes the game so predictable.
Like Edgarpoop above we think it's a journey v destination problem but more on the players. To many people only focus on being escapes/kills or having everything go their way rather than actually playing the trial with other people.
Its not a game problem to us but people who make solo more miserable than it should be.
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When I play survivor it's always solo and it's not as terrible as most people seem to say it is. Yes I would like to see some buffs and QOL changes, mainly giving more info about my team's perks and current actions, but when I do have a bad game it's just as often because of my teammates giving up as it is the killer playing in an annoying way.
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I personally think it's fine the only thing it proves is how loose BHVR is in each mmr range , considering that's a wider pool than just the top players in mmr that's a pretty good number, people forget how easy it is to get to high mmr in this game it's no different than the old days of playing till you get to rank 1 people get there eventually even if they don't belong there just by time invested and that's why alot of these numbers aren't taken super serious, I'd bet if you made another bracket just in the high mmr range and took the absolute top players and looked at their numbers it would sing a different tune that what you're seeing here.
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With Solo Q I generally have no idea what the other survivors are running. So I just go with the assumption my teammates are perkless until proven otherwise.
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I think it largely boils down to matchmaking. Pooling servers within reasonable distance would increase the amount of survivors queued in any given region. Killers would stay on their nearest server, but a survivor on NA East could end up playing on NA West. Not feasible for every region due to distances, but it could work for NA and some players in EU. It would allow for more accurate matches from an increased player pool. Obviously, this idea is without any context for the tools they use for queuing and matching players. Things often sound easy until you actually have to make the script work with whatever tool is being used.
The second idea will sound dumb, but…use SBMM. It's already in place. For example, I often encounter a P100 Blight player from SA who quite literally only runs quad slowdown and double iri add ons. I encounter them multiple times every week and it's the only thing they play. A player like that should never be playing against a random solo queue team. Ever. That should be a long time queue to face an appropriate challenge against a 4 man SEAL team. It's the reason SBMM systems exist. When players are achieving these absurd win rates on either role, they should be facing longer queue times against tough opponents, not instant queues into automatic wins. Even 20 win streaks should never really be happening, and they've become normalized.
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The issue with these ideas are that this is nearly exactly what they tested prior and it was pretty unanimously hated by the community as it one increased queue times substantially, especially for the higher mmr players and two it made every match a miserable sweat fest. So the community already decided they didn’t want this.
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This is absolutely true and even though alot of people weren't big fans I'd like to bring ranks back and depipping, it wasn't perfect by any means but it's better than we have now, last night my squad got a 4 man out on a p100 Blight who was seriously cracked with some of his plays and did really well it literally came down to 2 plays at the end game that cost him a 2k, then we turn around and get a prestiged 0 trapper who cant catch anyone and he goes to the corner to sit ,only in the endgame do i see he has 10 hours in the game.... 10 against a squad with more than 40,000 combined hours, that should never happen in any game that claims to care about balance , I friend requested him and invited him to my group to teach him more but it just shows how bad the MMR system is in this game.
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I think most people agree that the old ranking system with emblems was the best system but I think at this point they’ve just committed so much time and money to trying to make this SBMM work they never want to drop it and admit it was a failure. Most people also liked actually being able to see your rank as well instead of now where everything is hidden.
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I don't play survivor a whole lot (especially now that I switched to PC), but I always played Solo and it never really felt that bad. Maybe that's just me, but regardless, the only time I didn't like it was when I got tunneled, camped, all the things everyone hates. But that was rare at best for me.
My experience isn't like everyone's though, so take my input with like, a salt lick or something. I've heard horror stories and seen toxicity on both sides, but still, that's my experience.
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This will sound really dumb, but I don't think the DbD community is a good authority on what it wants. I'm of the belief that people are just parroting their favorite streamer 50% of the time and aren't actually thinking about what they're saying. The loudest portion of the community has a "rules for thee, not for me" mindset, where they want to sweat and win as much as they can, but they'll have an absolute meltdown the second their opponent does the same. I don't think those players should be catered to in any way. I think the devs should have the stance that players are going to be matched appropriately, and the game will be adjusted if it's truly unplayable from there. But I suspect players are just parroting their favorite streamer who feels like their income is threatened when faced with the existential crisis of a 50% win rate.
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Ugh. Yeah yeah. 61% of all survivors die on average in all trials ever. Great.
How many of those are 3 or 4 deaths in a single trial? Killrate isnt killerwin rate.
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One of my strategies is making the mmr work for me. I pick a playstyle and eventually the mmr gives me matches that incorporate the playstyle into my games.
When playing Survivor I will play ultra altruistically. I will go for the unhook even if I know it’s a guaranteed trade. I will take protection hits, even if they down me just to help someone wiggle off the Killer’s shoulder.
Over time the system now gives me matches that match my looping abilities with the Killer’s chase abilities. It’s really fun because some games I’m the rabbit for the team and I’m able to keep the Killer occupied for long times.
In the way that Killers can get into a higher mmr by tunneling, the same thing happens to Survivors who hide and gen rush. Eventually those tactics alone aren’t enough to carry the game.
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I generally agree with your point for the most part. There’s a lot of people that parrot streamers opinions without the actual experience themselves. I will say though that the bad matchmaking covers up a lot of the games poor balance, ie good vs good players since it’s balanced for bad players. So higher mmr people would have a very bad experience since this change essentially magnifies the games balance problems and brings them to the forefront in every match. So I mean we could say this is good if you thought they had the intention of fixing those imbalances but I don’t think they do since they want it balanced for bad players, not good ones. So I’m not really sure how we solve that problem. Bad matchmaking is annoying and a core problem but in the games current state I think it’s a required problem since they don’t want to balance appropriately.
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TBH, I find that my teammates are what makes solo q feel miserable more often than not. Not in the sense that "oh these guys are terrible and don't know what to do", more like "why are you giving up now? We have 2 gens left and the killer only has two hooks on different people!"
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In my experience dc's aren't very common, unless the match was kind of lost anyways. Hook suicides are more common for me at least. Though of course I do get the occasional dc as well.
However, especially when talking about balance, I don't think it makes sense to consider these matches in any way or form. Not to mention that killers dc sometimes as well.
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That’s something that is unfortunate. They don’t count matches with DCs but do count ones with people removing themselves on hook even though it’s basically the same thing but just to avoid the penalty, and technically worse even because then they don’t even get a bot. Not sure why they include these matches in the kill rates.
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Probably to massage the numbers to make it look nicer than it would otherwise appear.
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Probably. If they cut those as well the kill rate data would drop massively.
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Since DCs are excluded, the escape rate is infact tremendously lower than 39%. The chances of escape is extremely low. It's very unbalanced.
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See that's just it. DC's leading to losses for survivors has nothing to do with the game's balance. This is probably why the devs are going for a 60% kill rate, because the hook suicides inflate the kill rates. Even though I do think the kill rate should be closer to 55%.
Also, not sure about others, but I don't get a dc every third game. They are rather rare compared to hook suicides.
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i get 3 DC's every 10 games on average. It shouldn't be included in the stats but u can see why the 40% average win rate don't hold up from my point of view.
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They could close the gap by updating the UI and showing stuff like teammate perks and whatnot. Guess we'll get an update in the coming years though.
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and the thing about those statistics (and most statistics) is that they don't tell the full story. If it's only 1 survivor surviving 40% of the time, it means survivor side team is losing the overall game (meaning the killer is getting a 2k-4k) even more than 60%.
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For 8 years solo que existed without coms. When the killer could mori without hooking. When Ruin required hitting Greats just to not lose progress. When games could start as a 1v3, 1v2, or 1v1. When camping and tunneling didn't exists.... oh wait it did, and it was worse then.
What really changed to cause the survivor role to become so pathetic?
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Think of a games difficulty settings; I like to consider it the "hardest" way to play DBD. You will get people insisting that survivor is brain-dead easy, that if you're not good at it then it's a skill issue, and will say that the stats prove nothing. But based on the literal facts, which are the stats, it is clear that it is not as easy as many preach it to be.
That being said, I think it's important to manage expectations. If winning is all that matters to me then I'll play some killer, as my chances of winning are higher. If I want to just goof around then I'll play with friends. If I want to seriously to try and win as survivor then there's probably discord servers for that. And if I want the hardest difficulty then I do solo q which is what I primarily play.
Once I stopped expecting survival to be half win v losses, the game got much more enjoyable for me. One of my very firsts posts on this forum was about Solo Q and asking if this is what it's supposed to feel like. Everyone said yes. And since then my opinions on solo have changed. It's not "fair" but it's not supposed to be and I understand that, so I enjoy the challenge.
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The players figuring out that whining and screaming enough does something?
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I think the tunneling is worse now. While I can't speak for everyone's experience that has been mine.
You're not considering that survivors had a lot of busted stuff during that time period (eg full gen BNPs, pre 6.1 DH, infinite loops, etc) that also should have never existed but did and helped counter balance the busted stuff Killers have.
As well, the old matchmaking would lead to very imbalanced matches where getting a super easy 4E interspersed the being obliterated 4Ks.
You can't bring up one side (the buffs for survivors) without also talking about the impact of the nerfs and changes in matchmaking on the solo queue experience.
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I like playing survivor because I like working as a team and towards an objective. I wish there was more communication for solo q like a wheel (so no abuse can be sent or received) and I'd also like to be able to either "give up" or get up in a slugging situation.
Alot of my matches are the case of, load in match, jump on gen, get chased and the team arent doing much or teammate gets chased and goes down then hooked when pain res pops and possibly grim embrace. I dont like having to do a an equivalent of 7 gens to try and power gates (but i know thats being addressed in the next update). Then the unhooked survivor normally gets tunnelled and theres 3 of us left at 4 or 5 gens left :/
I'd like the devs to try and tighten up MMR and I wouldn't mind waiting a few minutes if it meant I had a better quality match. But all in all the devs want atleast 60% kill rate on killer so I doubt much is going to change.
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I do see that argument brought up, but survivors do generally leave when the match is a certain defeat. For example, Blight has slugged everyone at 5 gens and they start DCing. It was a blowout win for the killer but the match gets thrown out because someone threw in the towel. It really happens a lot. I wish they were counted but I really doubt BHVR wants anyone to know how bad survivors have it.
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This is probably why the devs are going for a 60% kill rate, because the hook suicides inflate the kill rates
I think you are mistaking the cause for the effect here. Don't you think it's because the devs for some reason decided that "balance" is 60% kill rate instead of 50%, soloQ survivors sometimes can't take this mathematically killer-sided balance and therefore go next more often?
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