Opinions on Gen Times (and Do They Need to Be Changed Again)?

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  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 464
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    Please don't add more time to gens. The amount of time I've spent on those things is embarrassing. Many would kill for that time back.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,002
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    At the very least, Commodious should be nerfed a little so that the purple toolboxes are actually the most effective ones.

  • bazarama
    bazarama Member Posts: 226
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    I played clown and got 9 hooks. 3 survivors on 2 hooks one dead on 3rd hook. I ran with 2 regression perks.

    I don't tunnel or camp because that's just boring and I don't play to win.

    Now next game I ran zero regression perks and whilst arguably slightly better survivors I got 4 hooks. No kills.

    The survivors ran with every gen rush perk and toolboxes you can think of between them.

    Now i think my chase time was decent with maybe a couple taking a touch too long but with no regression perks the gens went super fast.

    I know survivors hate gen regression but I do believe it's necessary especially for weaker killers.

    Perhaps capping gen rush and regression to one perk only might work.

    Killer could have one regression perk survivors could have one each giving a maximum of 4 per match.

    I have no idea if it would work I just know playing for hooks with no regression was utterly useless against semi-decent survivors all running gen rush perks and add-ons.

  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,718
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    Gen times are fine, and don't need changing. Survivors need a secondary objective.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,292
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    In the very least it could be something cliche like gas cans for generators.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,292
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    As Survivors get better at the game, kill rates go down so some changes would need to happen to keep the targeted kr. Either Killer buffs, Survivor nerfs, or both.

    It’s probably why attracting new people to the game is a good thing. It introduces inexperience into a group that slowly gets better with time. It stays the targeted kr without needing to change much about the game.

    Both roles have room to improve but I’m of the belief that Survivor is the more difficult of the two roles. Because of that it becomes more noticeable when Survivors get better at the game.

  • TerraEsram
    TerraEsram Member Posts: 606
    edited June 2
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    Dunno, lately, I was wondering about this question and find sometime, some "strange" thing about the gen times
    I don't take perk for making the gen quicker, except Déjà Vu , just for trying to break some hypothetical three gen

    But, since I don't take this kind of perk, and make the gen a lot of time solo, they are very slow (90 secondes behind a gen) and… It happen, sometimes, it seem's quicker, it don't take 90 secondes, but less times, and I was wondering why..

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,719
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    Yeah they need to be changed again. Or at least do something. The 10-second gen nerf didn't do a thing because it got more than counteracted by nerfing ALL gen defence. Add in survivors getting more efficient, because they have to or else they'll be trapped in MMR hell (garbage teammates vs decent killer), and you've got drastically increased, not decreased, overall gen speed. On top of nerfing killers, on top of a gen regression limit, on top of leaving in broken loops, on top of... You get the point. I don't know how people are complaining about slow gens at this point, and aren't blaming their teammates but blame "killah OP!" They're so easy to finish within minutes. And gen defence doesn't even help anymore, except against mid or lower teams. They're useless vs the top because you're likely to get no more than 4 hooks before all gens are done, and even less if you're really spreading your hooks. But the point is gen time vs chase time is too fast, dude. It doesn't take a genius to do the math.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,719
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    It's not just toolboxes. You don't need gen speed-up to have fast gens. Just efficiency. Killer decisions and actions are actually the least meaningful they've ever been. What's the #1 or #2 most difficult thing to do as killer at high level? Hit a survivor. They'll pre-drop, force the stun, force the entity blocker, whatever it takes to make a hit as difficult as possible. So why people are protesting anti-loop killers when you play to lose as an M1, I'll never understand. Even M2s. Hillbilly, Demogorgon, Wesker have some of the most telegraphed abilities in the game, and people think they're strong. With decent gen defence, they might have been. But look at what we're left with. Nothing.

  • Sarrif
    Sarrif Member Posts: 127
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    Secondary objectives can work they just need to be worth it. Invocations are a good idea if they make them worth it. Boons were great until they deleted the good one and never buffed the weak ones. Sabotage may be worth it in the upcoming update but killers probably will still whine and prefer that survivors should be on gens instead.

    Seriously look at what we have now.

    Dull totems in case of NOED? You probably wont make it to end game if you spend all match breaking totems.

    Chests? Most items are bad, maps are worthless, broken key is objectively worthless, med kits are… potentially good but like just find someone to heal you instead of spending minutes trying to heal. Toolboxes time save is not worth the time loss, this might be a little better with the sabotage changes but not by much.

    Healing and saving other survivors are worth it but that's about it?

    There's so many things that could work.

    Like say, have a 'broken' generator spawn in the basement and by finding a 'part' somewhere on the map and bringing it to it you create another generator to repair in a place most killers won't check.

    An invocation that when the next player would die they resurrect at the hook furthest away from the killer.

    Being able to repair broken pallets somehow by getting materials from chests or something.

    Some kind of plan B escape option for when there's like 5 gens left and someones already dead.

    A perk that could 'summon' a hooked survivor from one hook to another.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 8,719
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    No. The first error, of the misconception that survivors are steadily drained of crucial resources from the game's start, is that the killer gains an equal amount of momentum. The killer doesn't have any momentum until a survivor is dead. You could make the argument that they've got momentum when they hook someone, but the time and effort required to do that doesn't even make up for the 2-3 instant gens lost. There's nothing about the neutral starting state of the match that suggests that killer gets stronger later on as survivor gets weaker. The killer has minimal control over where survivors loop them at. The survivors can spread out their resource use, pallets, in a way that they've always got one around a gen the killer might contest them at. The killer can get rid of the pallets near the gen, but that means not kicking the gen yet, which can cause it to get done, so that pallet being used was just a waste of time, because now the survivors don't even need to be there anymore. The killer can kick the gen to stop its completion, but then the survivor gets to a further (and usually stronger) pallet, leaving the pallets near the gen still up so they can be used later. Sometimes it's not a pallet, and is instead a window, which can be less safe but can be used infinitely. So that's what killers are up against just as a baseline.

    The only thing that generates killer momentum is a kill. An injured, even death hook, survivor is still capable of doing gens, and gens are way too fast. So every second that survivor is alive, they're capable of doing major damage to the killer's game plan, not only through wasting huge amounts of time in chase, but also by advancing the objective. This is why killers tunnel, because in a 3v1 where 1 is hooked, 1 is rescuing, and 1 is being chased, the survivors are mostly off the gens and are all somewhat pressured. No constant looming threat of losing. In the 4v1, 1 can always be on a gen, a source of constant objective advancement no matter what their teammates or the killer's doing. And never just 1 person on gens. The unhooked survivor doesn't have to get healed, and can jump straight on a gen. Survivors really don't need to heal until death hook. It's why 4-man SWFs with a designated We'll Make It healer are so busted, because they're about as efficient as staying injured, except they're all always healed. The moment 1 of their teammates is on death hook, always a healthy teammate around to body block, go back to the healer, and do it all over again.

    All of these issues become more and more impactful as anti-loop and gen slowdown gets nerfed repeatedly. You see 5 killers at the top, and that is it, because everyone else is too weak to compete. Sure, you can beat any mid team with a strongest build Freddy or Ghost Face, but what about high level? They'll just abuse all the stuff mentioned above, plus BNPs and instaheals, plus exhaustion and flashlight/pallet save perks. And these are not hypothetical matches. They happen regularly, and it's pushed many killers away from the role, which is why the BP boost is always on killer, and why solo queue is so hard since you're always facing the most resilient and elite killer's who continue to push through this BS balance. Many times, I've wondered and wished that this was all an exaggeration, a pro-killer propaganda fantasy. But the irrefutable math, and the irrefutable skill ceiling of survivors vs that of killer, has yet to be contested.

    It was a nice and well-intentioned experiment, to balance around casuals instead of high level so that they have the most fun. Okay, but there's a reason that no other game does that, and it's because it's oxymoronic. You balance the game for people who play with the game's full potential, not casuals who think gens will just get done if they hide and heal all match. Making the game balance a casual free-for-all, spit balling ideas at the wall constantly, just makes it to where 1 side takes advantage of all the broken stuff there is, and bullies the other side. If you balance off the top, when players go from casuals to learners, and learners to veterans, they'll reap the benefits of their skill and experience, and will figure out how to do all this impressive stuff without dealing with arbitrary advantages given to the other side.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
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    I mean if we think basekit Gen progression Vs. regression is good then I have a question…

    If you think that way then why are players using Gen progression and regression perks (toolboxes and their addons are included)

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,685
    edited June 3
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    I mean, that's kinda like asking why people use healing speed perks (both slow-down and speed-up) if they think healing speed is good.

    Obviously players are gonna try to optimize stuff as much as they possibly can.

  • Adaez
    Adaez Member Posts: 1,239
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    The fact they nerfed the best gen regression perks while not touching gen rush perks and items or change gen speeds tell you everything you need to know why this game is considered the most unbalanced game in the world.

  • Zaydin
    Zaydin Member Posts: 275
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    Yes, they need to be brought back to at least 90 seconds with how quickly survivors can slam them out, especially with all the nerfs regression perks have been hit with.

  • KA149108
    KA149108 Member Posts: 312
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    I do think the regression meta is ridiculous at this point. You've got killers with good map traversal and good chase potential bringing 4 stack gen regression.

    I do believe we need some killers buffed but having to do the equivalent of 7 gens just to get gates is exhausting and makes me want to turn off the game.

  • Zaydin
    Zaydin Member Posts: 275
    edited June 3
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    Funny you mention Pop and Pain Res: They are getting nerfed today.

    And they are everywhere because they are just about the only viable regression perks left after survivors complaining got all the others nerfed.

    Meanwhile, survivors are slamming generators faster than ever with no nerfs to their ability to gen rush.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,305
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    I don't think any of that is true.

    For the record, though, I do think survivors can get reasonably efficient gen speeds without items or perks, of course. It'd be kind of unbalanced if they couldn't. I just mean that generator speeds are only a problem when toolboxes (and supporting perks) are used— the efficiency survivors can get without toolboxes and perks is manageable and fair. A harder game, as it should be when your opponents are really trying, but perfectly winnable in most cases.

    To the rest of that… I don't know, I don't mean to be rude but it kinda just sounds like you're facing survivors that are better than you, if you struggle to even get a hit against them.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,305
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    While I don't disagree with you overall, I do feel the need to point out that killers DID get their meta shift.

    Remember, back when BT/DS/UB/DH was the meta, there was also a single meta build for killers and it wasn't Pop/Pain Res - it was Ruin/Undying/BBQ/Tinkerer, with one of those sometimes swapped out for Pop the same way you'd sometimes see a survivor swap out for Iron Will. You don't see most of those perks as much even individually now, let alone it being the single meta build that dominates everyone's games.

    Also, survivors do have good perks they neglect as well. You see the problem slightly less on the survivor side, but it does exist there to a degree.

    Again, not saying the over-abundance of Pop/Pain Res isn't an issue, just that there's no double standard in meta prevalence. Both sides had a defined meta for four years, and both sides had that meta changed in 6.1.0.

  • THE_Crazy_Hyena
    THE_Crazy_Hyena Member Posts: 246
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    Do you remember when Commodious used to have 180 charges? - Enough to complete 2 full gens, and then some (since gens had 80 charges back then).

  • THE_Crazy_Hyena
    THE_Crazy_Hyena Member Posts: 246
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    Toolboxes in general does not need a nerf, to be completely honest. All they really need is a good add-on pass, to make charge and repair add-ons more rare, and sabo add-ons common. Maybe push commodious into iri tier?
    Or change the commodious toolbox into a better repair box, but restrict the use of add-ons.

    My take on suggested changes below:

    • Worn-out Tools (Brown) - Charges increased to 24 (was 16), Repair speed decreased to 30% (was 50%).
    • Toolbox (Yellow) - Charges increased to 24 (was 20), Repair speed decreased to 40% (was 50%).
    • Mechanic's Toolbox (Green) - Fine as it is.
    • (New) Saboteur's Tools (Green) - Increases Sabotage speed by 75% - 18 charges. Has a 15% repair speed increase.
    • Engineer's toolbox (Purple) - Fine as it is.
    • Alex' Toolbox (Purple) - Fine as it is.
    • Commodious toolbox (New tier: Iridescent) - 40 charges (was 32), +100% repair speed, 50% sabo speed - Does not accept add-ons.

    Add-on pass:

    • Scraps (brown) - New tier (Rare / green). Increases charges by 12 (was 8). Decreases repair speed by 10% (new effect)
    • Wire Spool (yellow) - New tier (Very Rare / purple). Increases charges by 16 (was 12). Decreases repair speed by 15% (new effect)
    • Worn-out cloth (brown) - New tier (Uncommon / yellow). Increases repair speed by 15% (was 20) - Skillchecks triggered has a 50% greater success (great) zone, and gives 1% extra progression upon hitting a Great skill-check (new effect).
    • Socket Swivels (yellow) - New tier (Very Rare / purple). Increases repair speed by 20% (was 25) - Skillchecks triggered has a 50% greater success zone, and gives 2% extra progression upon hitting a Great skill-check (new effect).

    Note: Brand new parts are fine as they are in their current form, and does not need any more nerfs. I also did not mention sabotage speeds as much, since we have yet to see the full effects of the new changes.

    By changing the commodious toolbox into the "ultimate repair box", which does not accept add-ons, will limit the usage of brand new parts. Therefore if survivors wish to bring BNP's with my changes to the repair aspect of toolboxes, they need to either prioritize losing speed for more charges, or gain less speed, but more skill-expression through skill-checks.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    they need to categorize gen slowdown perks and limit the number of them killers can run, buff most of them and gut toolboxes.

  • Johnny_XMan
    Johnny_XMan Member Posts: 6,424
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    The devs already know that you raise gen times, and killers have more time to Camp/Tunnel.

    So no, gen times are fine.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,419
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    It doesn't matter what Commodious used to have. Repair stacking is still too much for modern DBD, especially when BHVR keeps nerfing gen regression and slowdown stacking.