BHVR will do with Vecna same did with Chucky: Sell it and nerf it.
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You mean like Shape EW1 builds that simply dont have lunges?
Lunges are also not crutches because Killers dont uniquely rely on them to win chases, and because they dont guarantee you will either.
Lunges have counterplays, Pallettes are forced and guaranteed 50/50s that are completely controlled by survivors.
A crutch isnt something that if taken away reduces your kill/win rate.
A crutch is something that guarantees a level of success with little/no thought or counterplay.
What can I do at a loop with a Pallette? Most Loops can be run on reaction, meaning Killers can do very little to win a chase at a loop if they dont have a particularly good power against loops. Unless I can go undetectable, players just look at stain or simply at where I am and keep to the opposite side.
You can run around it, until because of your higher base speed and Bloodlust you may be in range, at which point the pallette drops, and you either break it and the surv just goes "bye" to the next loop (or flashlights), you keep wasting time trying to play catch with them in a situation where they are clearly advantaged, or you abandon the chase knowing that sooner or later you will have to hook that survivor.
This entire interaction is weighed in the Survivors favor, but the second a killer comes along that can remove that interaction once every 40 seconds apparently that's unfairly powerful.
That said, I would gladly give up lunge if it means they also remove pallettes2 -
How do survivors play that do not rely on a crutch called pallet?
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Yes because they're needed to make the game balanced around chase & down time which dictates how much time survivors have doing gens to escape. If you didn't have pallets to extend chases then the escape rate would be less than 5%.
A pallet is an essential part of the game that literally determines the outcome of every chase. It sounds like you're saying every survivor should be able to run the killer for 1-2 mins without needing to drop a pallet because having pallets is just some kind of bonus. Like what do you suggest a survivor does during a chase so they last more than 15 seconds if they can't drop a pallet to make it to the next loop or window?
Perks are crutches. Tunneling is a crutch. Using a integral part of the games mechanics isn't a crutch.
For the record I personally don't even think Vecna is that strong and certainly doesn't warrant a nerf. That one spell is basically stopping him from being rather bad. Remove that and you make him pretty weak imo.
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Well, that's what his ability is about now. Silent dash strikes that are not so silent.
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I'm used to waiting a whole 20 seconds for another chance to attempt an elusive 5th hit down with my rubber knife as a Legion, so waiting 18 seconds for Chucky's relatively much stronger dash attack wasn't that bad.
As for it being unhealthy for the game. Maybe it was. But do people honestly think Survivors will like facing a Chucky that almost always has his power ready more than the one that could scamper under pallets? I have my doubts.
It's not a full rework or anything, but he's definitely lost a little of his appeal (at least to me, anyway). I don't see why they couldn't have preserved scamper in Hidey-ho mode somehow. Maybe by making it take him longer to scamper the pallet or by giving him a couple seconds fatigue like a Legion cancelling their power.
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It's a principle design flaw of the game.
I just hoped survivors would realize instead that of getting defensive about it.
Of course you need to use them, that doesnt make them a good interactable with.
But hey, everything survivors do to win, or need to do to win is fine, but what killers need to do to win is evil and toxic and worthy of nerfing or having a countering perk made baseline.
It's just funny how one Killer being able to ignore this ######### interaction once every 40 seconds triggers survivors so much they call for a nerf.
If we were truly interested in everyone having a nice experience we'd discuss how to make loops and pallettes a more fun gameplay loop for killers.
But just nerf Mage Hand, that's also fine. Why start a difficult discussion when we can just rush an easy solution that only hurts killers, who noone actually cares about.2 -
I wouldn’t say people are getting defensive about it, but you do realize saying pallets are a crutch is something 99.9% of players are going to raise an eyebrow to and ask for articulation and disagree with it, no? It’s a very out there take, and people are just trying to understand why you’d think it.
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I think scamper was removed instead of nerfed because i don't think there was much room to nerf it without making it pointless over breaking a pallet. Scamper was 1.4 seconds (and was 1.2 on original ptb), breaking a pallet is 2.34 seconds and it's 1.87 seconds with brutal strength.
I'm not sure if this chucky is better to play against yet but scamper was definitely complained about a lot when it came to the feedback, you can see in the comments here.0 -
I am going to say this without malice nor any ill-intent.
I think you need to seriously reflect on your own point of view, biases and gameplay if you seriously hold those positions.
I am well aware that I am not a typical Killer player. I've put way too much time into the game and have pushed my skill as far as I can. However, I cannot help but think that you're arguments sound a lot like pretty much every newer Killer player.
I promise you, you will improve and things will get easier.
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Since Oni, I've always waited at least two weeks before getting a new killer.
Saves me the disappointment.
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so quickly to change the character.
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It's very quick but appreciated in my opinion. Even if I think it's the wrong way to nerf Mage Hand, but Mage Hand currently is a bit overtuned if you ask me.
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There are survivors who after even 1000+ hours,Will Camp pallets while injured against huntress/nemmy and still call bs when going down when they dropped the pallet in front of them
II'm Not necessarily agreeing with that other guy, just trying to maybe clarify what they meant.
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personally, his time to down is too slow for me. i didn't think he needed any nerfs.
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Hmm I would disagree with this, in my opinion Mage Hand needs a little more counterplay for survivors, which this nerf will hopefully address. Maybe. I am still surprised they aren't doing anything about Boots of Speed though.
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I would hope so, considering you can outplay his dash to some degree whereas the scamper thing just got you hit no matter what.
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if you are so smart and see this evil pattern/cycle, you can wait until the new content gets its "eventual" nerf and make your decision after. besides, if you buy a killer you don't like only because it's strong, that's such a loser thing to do i'm ngl.
i don't think pressuring balancing with such illogical accusations is a healthy thing, of you, or for the game.
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it is 38 second cooldown. if survivor only get hit by mage hand, it takes 76 seconds to down 1 survivor from healthy to injured.
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They didn't even wait a week before nerfing Mage Hand. What a lark.
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It really does feel like this game is sometimes being balanced by the number of complaints something gets. Mage hand needed an immediate nerf because there wasn't enough counterplay…. but Alex toolbox + speed addons allowing survivors to take a hit, sabotage a hook, then move away before getting hit again, is still in the game?
I see so many posts explaining how important it is for mage hand to have counterplay, to be fair for survivors…. so why isn't it important for sabotaging to have counterplay, to be fair for killers? The new sabotage speed, takes away the risk of hook trading, which is the opposite of fair counterplay.
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"Mage Hand needs counterplay"
"Being Flashlight Stunned and Dropping a Survivor needs counterplay"
"Just slug"
"OK"
"No sluggins is evil actually because 1 person doesnt get to play the game!"0 -
While mage hand rn is BS we might need to see how awfull new mage hand is, because frankly any ability with a 38 second cooldown has to be good. Ironically in this thread I consider scamper and mage hand very comparable, because old scamper and current mage had are BS and give free hits. However chucky got saved because only bad players relied on scamper+m1, because slice and dice is an incredible chase tool.
Vecna does NOT have a good chase tool outside mage hand, yes flight can give you distance and counter w but if you get hit after the fly slowdown...LMAO. And the skeletons are just worst artist crows, you prob only can get value by spawning them on top of survivors and after that you have a 38 s cooldown.
Like vecna without mage hand is kid of a joke but vecna with current mage hand is obnoxious, I trully have no solution for it. My only comment would be he is prob ok after the nerf even if he sucks because the average soloQ survivor goes down quickly in chase even to meme killer like trapper or sadako so they will find a way to throw matches against vecna too.
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Mage Hand will be good but fair afterwards because Vecna will have to use Mage Hand while the survivor is dropping the pallet, so he has to predict when the survivor will drop the pallet. That will open up the possibility of a mindgame, and make the ability fair for both sides.
Fly is a great tool to catch up to survivors, and FoTD is definitely a good anti-loop tool when used correctly, as it can stop survivors from vaulting pallets or windows, and you can spawn FoTD on top of survivors as well. Although I just found out that there seem to be plans to nerf FoTD as well, which I hope won't happen. That would be bad.
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As expected, there was a notice from the official twitter to weaken not only the hand but also other abilities. are you nerfing because the DLC sales reached the target number?
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I mean if they release a killer and they need nerfs then should they NOT nerf them?
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I don't have a problem with Killers getting a nerf if and when they need them. But I do have more of a problem when BHVR remove a power completely from a Killer's toolkit in the way they have done with Chucky. I've now got a Killer on my roster that I don't want to play with so often. If he wasn't Chucky, he'd be in the bin with Trickster and I probably wouldn't play him at all now (Trickster was never much fun for Survivors to VS, but since they over buffed him he's now absolutely miserable to go against). I'll definitely be waiting a little while longer before I buy another licensed Killer in future, unless they're one I'm really excited to see in the game.
The fact that they still advertise his ability to scamper under pallets in Hidey-Ho mode on the website is not a great look either. I'm sure this is just an oversight on their part, but I hope they update the website soon.
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Except there's nothing to suggest BHVR is biased towards survivors. The most common complaint I see is that Vecna's spells have counterplay. Why is this a complaint? Everything in the game should have appropriate counterplay. If it doesn't, it's poorly designed.
There hasn't really been any overwhelming feedback surrounding Mage Hand, though. Pallets are no more of a crutch than killers being faster than survivors by default is a crutch.
Whether you play killer or survivor, things that don't have counterplay are unfair and unfun. Remember FTP + Buckle Up? That was both unfair and unfun. Remember pre-rework RPD, buffed Boil Over and Boon: Exponential? Unfair and unfun. The counterplay to Mage Hand was waiting for Vecna to use it early so you can greed the loop.
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If we were truly interested in everyone having a nice experience we'd discuss how to make loops and pallettes a more fun gameplay loop for killers.
The simple fact of the matter is that you can't. Most killers will tell you they don't enjoy being looped, yet it's an integral part of the game and is in fact the only way survivors can showcase their skill.
Things that actively hinder the killer from achieving their goal of sacrificing all four survivors will never be fun.
You look at the nerf Mage Hand is getting, and somehow it's the end of the world. You'd think that it was going from 0.35s to a full minute with the way some of y'all are acting. Vecna is quite a strong killer, and as a reminder is the only killer with four powers in one. While he's certainly not an S-Tier killer, he is plenty strong, but very technical.
Knowing how and when to use his spells is arguably the most important part of playing Vecna. If you don't use his spells correctly, of course Vecna will feel weak. It's just like how if you don't manage your blinks correctly as Nurse, you'll begin to wonder how she's even considered one of the strongest killers in the game.
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The only killer who got reviewed bomb heavily was old Freddy thus leading to his demise. Vecna will still be strong alongside Chucky.
Post edited by katoptris on2 -
There is a thin line between "You need to know when to use your powers" and "All your powers have counterplay built in"
And yes, he is the only Killer with 4 powers, but he is also the only Killer who gives Survivors extra Items specifically to counter these Powers on top of all these powers having counterplay built in. Again, you can dodge one of his Spells by crouching, and the supposed "slowdown" this implies is like half a meter to 0.8 meters or something if you calculate in the slowdown for Vecna to cast the spells in the first place.
Mage Hand had plenty counterplay before the nerf, now it's one of these things that you are forced to learn to completely optimize to get value out of.
You wanna talk about how Killers dont have fun being looped, and they dont, but to say "Loops can never be fun" is just an excuse for the status quo to remain. There is a reason I said I want chases/loops to be interactive, because currently they are not.
Especially on new maps too many loops are safe so you just run them until the surv finally drops the pallet so you can break and apply gen pressure again.
It's a hold W contest, unless you play one of the Killers able to do literally anything in loop.1 -
his headnods are S+ tier though
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Yeah, the nerfs are always more prevalent in our heads, but there are also post-sale buffs when a killer underperforms … like with the Singularity. It just took about exactly one year of underperforming, save for the very, very short time in PTB and release, when he was actually strong, to finally getting touched with anything resembling respect.
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Chucky on launch was SOOO fun. That flick you could do was so satisfying.
Hes so bad now.
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Tell that to sharp hand joe
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Singularity is notoriously hard to master. Obviously this is an assumption on my behalf, but they've likely noticed over the last 12 months that a large majority of people who try him don't stick with him. Making him easier to use and more accessible to the general player base makes sense. We'll probably get more reliable stats on his performance in the near future too.
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