Slow down. Let’s talk about it

Options

Slowdown is a hot topic for good reason, it makes or breaks games. It’s obvious how much payoff you can get from slowdown perks.

Should slowdown exist at all? If no, why not? If yes, in what form? I love the idea of Hex: TotH as slowdown. I love the idea that every Killer (with some exceptions) should come with a secondary objective.

Why do you like/dislike slowdown? A common perception is that players enjoy slowdown because it helps win the game. Is there room for some type of slowdown that doesn’t automatically make the Survivor team lose? Can there exist slowdown that is fair?

What are your thoughts on the topic?

Comments

  • Ryuhi
    Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,733
    Options

    Slow down and speed up are too much of a variable, which unfortunately it feels like always get lopsided attention instead of tackling the concepts as a whole.

    Gens can be plus or minus too much in terms of progress speed. They need to be more equalized (i.e addressing slowdown, blocking, and gen speed perks simultaneously) so that a much tighter average can be balanced around. They could do that in any number of ways, but the healthiest would be to break up synergy in the aforementioned three categories.

    Until there is a proper baseline gens will go too fast or too slow, with whichever side stacks their advantage the hardest coming out on top.

  • hermitkermit
    hermitkermit Member Posts: 250
    Options

    Having two objectives I believe has statistically proven to be very effective in slowing down progress in a game, which can help. The kill rates on killers with a side objective tend to perform very well in comparasion to some others that don't, regardless if they are deemed weak by the community or not (m1s). I think it's healthy, and would like to see more of it, because it can provide good slowdown without having to be perk relient, so you can make room for other perks and try more unique builds.

    As far as why I personally don't like slow down, I don't mind it as long as it doesn't stack, as then it becomes too oppressive in my opinion just as I believe if multiple exhaustion perks could be used at once, would be too oppressive.

    I think overall both can be unhealthy though, as I believe the community as a whole has become much too perk dependent, with both sides relying way too much on perks rather than skill alone. Sometimes it's good to try to run with no perks at all even, just to see how dependent you really may be on perks like slowdown/exhaustion (I think those are flip sides of a near similar coin, both of them are used to waste/buy time).

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,259
    Options

    Good points, but I don’t like the idea of only being able to use a certain number of perks.

    I do however agree with the idea of nerfing them all instead of creating perk type slots.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,246
    Options

    I mean the game is balanced around 2.5 kills per game. Means it can go between 2 - 11 hooks, make it average of 6.5hooks. And Gen time is really enough to make ~6.5 hooks most of the time.

    I dont see a toolbox is problem, but same to slowdown. Stacking them is. And I really dont know what Devs can do so survivor cant stack the same items.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,671
    Options

    Thats why I said: "But ideally there is a range of good Slowdown-Perks, which just cannot be stacked with each other.", basically that the individual Slowdown-Perks can be strong on their own with only investing one or two Slots at max, but cannot really be stacked.

    An example like this would have been Ruin and PGTW. When both are up, you can have value of Ruin, but PGTW cannot be used. Obviously those got stacked as well after a while (when Ruin first got reworked, many players dropped either Ruin or PGTW), because you will get value out of PGTW when Ruin is gone, but something like this is way more bearable than having 4 Slowdown-Perks stacked together.

    And if the Devs find ways to make stacking Slowdown impossible, Perks which recently got nerfed can be buffed again. But since this is not the case, they basically have to nerf them individually, which sucks for players who used only one or maybe two Slowdown-Perks, but is needed for those who stacked four of them.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,244
    Options

    i think that making perks not stack doesn't fix the under-lining issue with people wanting to stack them. with how dbd is designing 150+ perks, i believe every single perk effect is INTENDED to be stacked. Perks that trying to be soft-balanced to not stacked are often finding work around to make them get stacked.

    For example

    Dead-hard-Decisive strike-Off the record, Adrenaline Alongside red syringe is 4 speed boost perks+an item. How is this any different from Sprint burst+Dead hard+Balance landing+Lithe triggering all in 1 chase? Artificially, the game is placing limitations to curb second-hit haste stacking but the player is abusing game mechanics to cheat the artificial game-system and have multiple health-states in 1 chase. Unbreakable is the other perk that get thrown in the mix instead off the record which abuses the whole pallet-stun →killer needs to slug problem that has no counter-play(Often done with a teammate who is 99% the sprint burst as exhaustion perk aka background player).

  • Unusedkillername
    Unusedkillername Member Posts: 215
    Options

    I think they can be balanced but it would take some very courageous decision making from the devs and would upset a lot of players

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,246
    edited June 12
    Options

    I created a suggestion about items before. Items only have the weakest version that come for free, which survivors can select one of them in item slot.

    For Toolbox, give it 24 charges but no speed boost, instead only give skill check (so I think it would give about 6 skill checks). Something like that.

    Though commodious with good addons merely overlap a single slowdown perk. I mean a kick with Pop can reset a Commo toolbox with good addon.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
    Options

    slowdown perks should be categorized and limited, like 2 (gen) slowdown perks allowed in a loadout. this way they can balance each individual slowdown perk more thoroughly and confidently meanwhile gen speeds/progression perks and killers can be balanced around it as well.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,246
    Options

    I dont think it work if categories them. Perks that do a single job are now out of idea, most perks nowaday are mixed with little things.

    For example, you may prefer 2 slowdown perks that only focus on slowdowns, not 2 weaker slowdown with a little of info and something else. Or if survivors only allowed to use 1 Haste perk, they would only use Exhaustion and never use Hope.

    What they need to do is hard limit. How much a Gen can be regressed, and how much total time regressed in a match.

  • HerInfernalMajesty
    HerInfernalMajesty Member Posts: 1,259
    Options

    I’d be okay with longer chases if it meant making the game last longer.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    So….. Gens are 90 charges

    Survivors repair Gens at 1.0-2.2 charges per second…. so 45-90 seconds

    Killers regress Gens at .25 charges per second…. so 360 seconds

    then add in perks and Toolboxes and speeds are eye opening…. pros and cons to it

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,378
    Options

    This is a pretty narrow view of regression.

    Considering the most popular and most powerful forms of regression take large chunks out of a generator, and base kit kicks take 5% of total, this ignores all of that. If pain res and pop both hit the same gen, that's about 40+ percent of the generator completely gone in a matter of seconds.

    Since BNP rework, there's literally nothing that adds a chunk of gen progress like this. It's all gradual and over time. And this doesn't touch on perks that make gens take longer, or block them completely.

  • Marioneo
    Marioneo Member Posts: 731
    Options

    i mean there is a way to prevent this just not one players would like aka perk limitions theres enough perks in the game now to seperate them into categorys Killers: Slowdown/Regression/chase/exposed/info Survivors: Second chance/healing/progression/exhaustion. If Devs ignore the player backlash and just make perks not allow perk stacking the same category it would solve it.

    Why not make chaos shuffle basekit? Everyone loved that gamemode then people cant purposely stack just pray for good rng

    I kinda agree Mostly cause Trap killers like Trapper, Hag ,Singularity need prep time or slowdown to get value from their kit

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,073
    edited June 13
    Options

    Making endgame much more viable while nerfing gen regression and progression perks would give choices to Killer playstyle. If endgame becomes more viable to play in, Killers would be encouraged to pick more endgame perks instead of stacking gen slowdown.

    There are more perks related to gens in some way than Endgame, is it any surprise why people are stacking slowdown?

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    I get that but I would've preferred if they didn't add that 5% instant regression and changed the .25 regression instead

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    But then we would see more complaints on NOED, No Way Out, Remember Me and Hope

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    The 5% is only 4.5 charges

    Pop does 20% of Current progression (so it matters more onhow much progress the Gen has)

    SH:PR is 18 charges on the most progressed Gen (and there's only 4 times that can Happen max... but I do see the problem with it)

    If the Killer is able to get PR and Pop on the same Gen the that's on the Survivors not the Killer

    2 separate Gen regression actions can't happen on the same Gen

    I'm not trying to make excuses but trying to gauge the base kit for the game at this point... as if there needs changes for it

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    Also what if that Dwight finished another Gen while the Jake was repairing that Gen

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    And it's not like Ruin is basekit either so the 20 seconds Jake was repairing isn't being regressed

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,246
    Options

    Just a visual about 1min timeline between Dwight & Jake.

    The funny part is, though it requires the same effort from killer, the progression on their Gens are greatly difference,

    If killers want to get more benefit on Gen kicking, make survivor busy like Dwight. Killers can not go forth and back just kicking Gens and expect the regression completely reset the long progress.

  • TragicSolitude
    TragicSolitude Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 6,832
    edited June 28
    Options

    Slowdown and progression perks were a mistake, imo. The gens themselves should have been balanced for each individual killer. That could mean the gens being slower to repair against some killers and faster against others, that could mean killers having what is currently a slowdown perk built into their basekit, or that could mean the killer having a secondary objective. Instead, we have a war between slowdown and progression perks/items and it's boring. The gens are the least interesting part of the game, yet so much focus is put on them because they can determine the length of the match.

    There could be so much more leeway with killer powers. BHVR knee-capped themselves by using perks as band-aids for problems in the game.

    Post edited by TragicSolitude on
  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,555
    edited June 28
    Options

    Well the game is balanced around running some variation of slow down. It’s not balanced around zero slow down. So in the current state it’s required to varying degrees depending what killer. To even consider the game with zero slow downs the game would need drastic changes. Most slow down with any meaningful value requires skill for hits or down so if they’re getting tons of value from them then they’re playing well, it’s not free.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,544
    Options

    Fair enough... but just a small nitpick

    .25 charges per second so any regression is minimal it's the 5% and gaining that back does take time

    So IMO getting rid of the 5% on kicks and adjusting base kit regression (.25 charges per second)

    And maybe changing the repairing a regressing Gen to a base of 1 second of repair

  • Vorahk08
    Vorahk08 Member Posts: 238
    Options

    I believe that the game is built around having some form of slowdown. However, the 4-stacking of regression perks is the problem. It keeps individual regression perks from being strong, but then more players start running multiple regression perks to get the results they used to, and the problem becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I wonder if some kind of perk class system would help the game. Then, restrictions could be placed on how many perks of a certain class would be in a build. Ex: "You can only have 2 regression perks selected." It might also help with adding new perks to the game, given that BHVR could add new perks for classes with fewer options. Same would go for gen progression perks, of course.

  • Barbarossa2020
    Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,367
    Options

    I'd base slowdown/ speed up based upon how many survs are alive. % based on how many survs are alive/unhooked.