I don't think people know how that Bard perk works
Whenever I start using it pretty much all survivors just leaves or walks away within 3-5 seconds. They usualy shake their head as "haha" and just ignore the perk. Do you realise it gives everyone a buff to all skillchecks for 90 seconds right? That's at the very least decent. I don't think Survivors (soloQ) know what it does because even if I am allready almost done with the animation (15s lasts total animation to get the buff) they just leave or run pass me without even stand still for few.
I also noticed that everyone had fun with the perk allready and almost nobody is using it in my games except for me. Also showing bard skills to the killer will just get you killed. Literaly all of the killers (8+) that I started to play they just down you as free down. I am not saying you should let me live or something but at least some friendly head shake before trying to murder me would be nice.
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that’s the thing with meme perks, they’re only meme-y for so long then it’s back to “get on generators or die”, for me anyways with how strong killers are now it’s a case of; i’d rather not watch you playing a guitar doing nothing for 20 seconds when i could be progressing a gen. it sucks you just want to have funny moments and everybody else just wants to win but this is dbd now unfortunately.
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i don't think people care about the effect. it is weak. Best to just ignore it.
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It's fine if you're doing it close to a gen but otherwise it's just a meme perk,not worth lingering around for the whole performance.
If anything more people are using it at the killer after stuns and such.
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They know what it does, they also know the effect is so small it is actually a detriment to your team to use (especially early game). The cast time just overshadows the potential benefit by so much, it's never worth using.
The only exception is if you want to burst a generator (instead of dps it), such as to get rid of a 3 gen.
Even if they wanted the buff though, it is proximity-based, meaning it falls off as soon as they leave the 16m radius around you. Likewise, you will give them the buff if you run within 16m of them, so there is no need for them to be present during the cast time.
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This is exactly why I've been advocating for all the bard perks to get buffed above meme status and into useful status. As it stands right now, literally all 3 of the bard perks are a detriment to run. Sure, they can be fun, but once you wear off the novelty you just have 3 dead perks that cost your time to do literally do nothing for the team.
I'm already to the point where I find the perks more tedious than fun, which is sad, because I really liked their concept.
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you know what's better than waiting for a 15 sec song to play out? survivors getting immediately on gens...
that 1% to 2% skill check boost isn't gonna do anything. The perk not trash but it not good either. I can see you getting value in a 3 gen or a double heal scenario. Most of the time it just not wroth standing around for.
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The effect follows you I'm pretty sure. So even if they walk away, if you join them on a gen straight after they will get the benefit. That might be why they don't bother to stick around.
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Some of you guys are crazy. The effect is definitely worth it if you use it intelligently. It's not unga bunga good, you cant use it whenever you like and get value, but it's definitely not weak.
All you have to do with it is follow someone to a Generator, then play it while stood at the generator and take a few perks/items that support it. Take some combination of:
- Prove Thyself to give your teammate(s) 10% extra repair speed while you perform and then repair the gen together.
- Hyperfocus (and Stake Out if you're bad a hitting great skillchecks) to increase the number of skillchecks you get.
- Toolbox with normal repair speed and max charges. You don't want repair speed or BNP addons, you want the 40% skillcheck chance while using Toolboxes as long as possible.
- Streetwise to give you longer on your toolbox.
The dice roll plays at the start of the performance. You can literally start playing and if you dont like the result of 2-10, you can just cancel it.
This perk is easy to get solid value out of. The only time it actually is weak is if you get a Nat 1 and scream… which can screw you over, but otherwise the perk is fine.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
I’ve had people use it while I was doing a gen and I honestly barely notice what it does
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One thing that might be a good buff if it needs it though is have the cooldown reduced by 33% (60s) if the performance is cancelled, but buffing the repair numbers makes this perk rather overbearing.
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Aw. I've had lots of matches where someone comes over to be and plays a song while I'm repairing, and I like it. I also follow that person to the next gen so I can keep benefiting from the buff.
I will freely admit I don't know how it works, though. And I feel like the finer details of that stuff are not really explained in-game.
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I don't have the new characters so I have no idea what it even does 😅
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Hopefully is stays underused because survivors really don’t need any more Gen rush perks
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It's a joke perk, you are lucky you are not getting sandbagged for using it.
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I disagree.
It is a perk that can turn any Skill Check into a Great Skill Check in terms of progression bonus (+1% to +3%), and Great Skill Checks get further boosted progression (+2% to +4%), which is really underrated. Keep in mind that this progression applies to not just Generators, but also to healing (+1% to +3% for Good Skill Checks, +4% to +6% for Great Skill Checks; can be further extended with certain Medkit addons).
Not only that, but the fact that you can apply it to the entire team is really amazing; the only downside is that the perk is new and a lot of people dont really understand what it does or how much value you can get from it.
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You'd be better off spending this time just doing a gen and picking something more sensible for a perk. All gen perks for survivors in this game are complete garbage by design, because the devs need to meet that 60% kill quota.
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the 90 second effect isn't proximity based; it lasts 90 seconds no matter what. also during the performance other people around still get the buff, if the description isn't misleading. edit: it does NOT persist for other survivors after seperating with the performer. well it's not as great as i think then.
you can cancel the performance if it rolls 1%; and when it rolls 2%, 7 skill checks will compensate the time investment of 15 seconds. 2 people almost always can get at least 7 skill checks within 90 seconds.it needs to be done near a gen or people won't bother hanging around, but then they definitely should get on the gen and get the buff.
it's a strong perk and people will realize it sooner or later. i'll go as far to say it becomes way too strong in specific scenarios (not common in soloq)
it perfectly complements skill check builds, will be strong with alan perk (and hyperfocus).
Post edited by NerfDHalready on3 -
Can you back this claim up with numbers rather than anecdotal evidence?
Let's check out the numbers:
Solo:
- Takes 15 seconds to cast, which is 16.7% worth of gen repair time (15 / 90); therefore
- You require 17/9/6 skill checks on a 1/2/3 performance roll to break even with casting the perk
- The average # of skill checks on a solo generator without modifiers is 6
- The % chance of hitting more than 17 skill checks is at most 0.025%
- The % chance of hitting more than 9 skill checks is at most 18%
- The % chance of hitting more than 6 skill checks is at most 59%
- The highest # of skill checks you can realistically get with Hyperfocus + Stakeout is 12
- Generators will generally be completed if you reach this point, which is why it's a maximum
- I am not using the average here because it's too variable and hard for me to actually calculate personally. If I had to guess, you'd average around 8-10 skill checks per solo gen if you hit every Great skill check.
- The average # of skill checks on a solo generator using the absolute best Toolbox, Commodius + 20 charges + Streetwise, is 16
- The % chance of hitting more than 17 skill checks is at most 46%
- The % chance of hitting more than 9 skill checks is at most 99.3%
- The % chance of hitting more than 6 skill checks is at most 99.98%
So in every scenario here, aside from using the best Toolbox in the game with Streetwise, you're not likely to even reach the break even thresholds for casting this perk, never mind getting any value from the perk. Even then, you need to roll an 11 or higher for that to be likely, which is only going to occur in half of your performances.
You may think 'Oh cool, I should obtain and run the best toolbox every game I use this then!' Well, aside from hoping you have an infinite number of them, keep in mind you also need Built to Last or Scavenger to use it more than once. Those perks will increase the preparation or 'cast' time before doing a generator from 15 to 30 seconds. That means the break even threshold of 17/9/6 just doubled to 34/18/12. Yeah, it's not likely to break even on time there even with the best toolbox in the game helping you.
But hey, one might argue the perk is not for solo - it's for duo and up, right? Let's see.
Duo:
- Takes 10.5 effective gen seconds to cast, which is 11.7% worth of gen repair time; therefore
- This is lower because your partner is doing a gen without the penalty as you cast for 15s, whereas you'd get a -15% repair penalty if you just did the gen with them in that 15s. Because of that penalty, you take less effective gen repair time to cast the perk.
- You now require 12/6/4 skill checks on a 1/2/3 performance roll to break even with casting the perk
- The average # of total skill checks on a duo generator without modifiers is 7 (or about 3.5 skill checks each)
- The % chance of hitting more than 12 skill checks is at most 5%
- The % chance of hitting more than 6 skill checks is at most 72%
- The % chance of hitting more than 3 skill checks is at most 97%
- The highest # of skill checks you alone can realistically get with Hyperfocus + Stakeout while duoing is ~6
- Again, too tough for me to calculate due to how many variables are at play so this is just a guess. I based the guess on the fact that you have nearly have the time to a generator as a duo, and most of the skill checks would come later as Hyperfocus is stacked.
- If we assume the other guy does not have this combo and they get 3.5 skill checks on average, the average # of skill checks for both of you combined is probably around 9.5
- The average # of skill checks one person using the absolute best Toolbox, Commodius + 20 charges + Streetwise, while duoing is… no clue!
- I'll just say this is positive value across the board based on how well solo performed. Chances are you won't use the full toolbox on one generator, but that generator should go so fast you have enough time to run to another anyway and extend perk value that way.
Now you might think 'Hey, that's pretty good! As long as I roll an 11 or higher, I'm starting to churn out value!' (cough 50% chance cough)
Sure, and you know what? I'm sure you'll even get an even higher chance of value with 3 people. The caveats here are there are way more variables than just the raw numbers at play. Unless you're breaking a 3 gen, solo generators are basically always the ideal way to play, and we already established that the solo numbers suck. Why are solo generators preferable?
- No repair penalty
- Killer cannot pressure everyone to stop repairing if split up; whereas they can if grouped up
- This means less idle time waiting for the killer to leave or running around them to another generator for all involved
- Gen regression perks only affect one generator at a time (aside from Surge and Ruin realistically)
- This means less people affected by the repair cooldown after a generator gets destroyed by a perk; and
- Can more efficiently repair the damage by gen regression since no one is inflicted with the repair penalty
- The misguided 'feeling' that generators are going slowly (i.e. 90s instead of 53) also tends to aggravate killers less
- This is actually beneficial for survivors as it can decrease the likelihood of early tunneling and camping
So unless you specifically need to rush a generator with someone for whatever reason, it is typically best to always solo. But then, if you solo, Bardic is absolutely horrendous. Even if you duo a generator, there's still only really a 50% chance you get value from the perk based on your roll.
So this perk is basically only good if you roll over 10 (50% chance), have at least one other person hugging you at all times while the buff is active (not likely in a dynamic game), get the skill checks (which is RNG), and have a reason to duo the gen in the first place (breaking a 3-gen). That's all on top of not getting interrupted during your performance for whatever reason.
I'm honestly reminded of a Looney Tunes skit with Daffy Duck and Porky Pig talking about insurance, and how it's only valid if Porky gets specifically a black eye from a wild stampede of animals running through the house on a full moon on the 4th of July, followed by a little baby elephant running past afterwards.
And do you know what's worse? Even if the stars align, and you qualify for Daffy's Insurance policy (i.e. get max value with 3 people on 2 gens per cast with no killer around and you rolled a 20 on each cast), you still only get to really use it 2, maybe 3 times in a match to that efficiency. Not only that, but in this pretend world where the stars align and I'm being impossibly generous on its value, the perk is probably saving you ~45 seconds throughout the game. In contrast, Hyperfocus + Stakeout will save you that on a single solo generator and does not require Daffy's insurance.
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The TLDR is that the perk is so highly conditional and niche that it's typically not worth running. Even if you can get value as a duo or even trio doing a gen, that's not likely nor even arguably efficient due to external variables. It's more consistent and typically even more beneficial to just solo gens, which this perk sucks at.
The only real exception is if you need to rush a generator, and do not mind wasting time preparing for that rush (in which case the perk is pretty decent). Even then though, that's only really likely in a 3-gen and that scenario isn't present every game.
I do not blame, and even encourage, people wanting to survive to just ignore the buff and do their own thing until a 3-gen arises.
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Pretty much every time someone has tried to use it in one of my games, the killer interrupts them shortly after they start playing and we all have to scatter.
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the perk just revert an old nerf where skill-checks used to be 2% from 1%. these numbers only matter with extreme gen-stack perks builds which most of your teammates aren't running.
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Excellent work on the numbers, absolutely an upvote for a very detailed argument. I can't help but applaud your solid argumentation, snd there isn't a lot I can contradict there.
You have said a lot there though, so addressing everything is difficult, but I'll try and keep my response brief while addressing the point... while your stats are on point, they don't quite cover the whole story.
The first point I'll make is, I'm of the opinion that a pair of survivors breaking middle gens quickly and ensuring a good end game 3 gen spread is a solid method to winning for survivor. If you break 2 generators in the middle of the map, you're well on your way to success in the trial. Its slso important to consider bypassing regression perks if you can get a middle gen done fast, and the breakpoints on how much that can matter can be anywhere. It's easy to win or lose a game on 1 regression event, so if you beat the regression event on a key gen, you're doing great. So yes, while you are right repairing individual gens is better, the reality of progressing gens to win the game is a little more nuanced than just the raw gen repair value from 3 separate players working on 3 separate gens. So solo gen repaur isnt necessarily more valuable than duo gen repair (though it is undeniably better than 3 man repair).
You raise an excellent point that the 1% values give really bad percentages of breaking even, even on a duo. The thing I've pointed out repeatedly is you can simply cancel if you get a bad roll. You waste barely any time and carry on as normal. If you get the 2%, or even the 3%, you can stick it out. With a strong toolbox, breaking a central gen and getting solid progress on another central gen is absolutely worth the dice roll, and you said yourself 2 survivors with 2 strong toolboxes are getting a lot more value to the point of making this gen fly which you then carry the value over to the second gen. It wouldn't be unrealistic for 1 cast to break 2 gens in this scenario and you're already 2/5 gens done in a dangerous part of the map.
You also state that this value only increases if you get 3 players with the buff, as we know, and unfortunately SWF is a thing in this game. You showed yourself that with 1 person taking BI with 3 sets of Commodius toolboxes, you're getting insane value, a SWF can easily line up for this, and it actually becomes pretty busted, especially if you all take 3 toolboxes.
The value of BI being crap on a single player is expected… it's a team buff, not a single player buff, and this is the scenario it really matters.... I'm not one for saying "it's good in SWF so don't buff it", but the fact it can make a SWF insanely strong means you can't blind buff the perk, and of the buffs proposed thus far, it makes SWFs insanely strong with this perk, and I don't think I'm being unrealistic by pointing that out.
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Yeah, there's a lot of nuance when it comes to both targeting specific generators, such as:
- Do I know which generators are high-value?
- Maybe it's middle, maybe it's a 3 gen on a corner of swamp (2 being on dock), maybe it's around basement
- At this point, you might need another perk slot just to distinguish this since they're not always obvious
- Does my team know which generators are high-value as well, so I can actually use Bardic?
- Is it possible to do these high value generators or will the killer interfere?
- Are they camping their 3-gen, have discordance, etc?
- When is it valuable to get these generators?
- Maybe you can't early because of the killer, and have to do it a bit later
- Does my team know when we should do these high value generators?
In solo queue, just the idea of picking out the right gens and convincing others to join you is like a Daffy Duck insurance policy in itself. Especially true when people know the general rule is, typically, that soloing is more efficient, as it can be harder to convince them to join you. That's why I was very general in saying 3 gen scenario, as I feel it's only really obvious and easy to get people together near the end when it's already a problem. The perk then helps solve the problem, rather than prevent it.
Not that there isn't value in per-emptively targeting specific generators, I just can't see that happening in solo queue very often.
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You're right in being able to cancel the perk if you roll lower than 11, that can mitigate how useless it is on a low roll. I actually did this in my games when I was testing Bardic after awhile, since it's just too bad to keep otherwise, and it was absolutely the most efficient way to play it.
My major complaint with this is that it just does not feel good to know that you have to cancel your perk because it is bad and not have access to it for a long while. That feeling is compounded when you roll low on multiple casts. I just don't view it as good design to make a person actively regret taking and using something that, by nature, is supposed to be beneficial to the user.
Funny enough, I also grew to dislike high rolls because, after using it so often, it started feeling tedious and I actually became too impatient to wait out the entire 15 seconds lol. But that's a personal strife of mine.
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The SWF section is absolutely true. SWF makes everything better, and the effect itself is actually pretty good if you ignore the cast time offsetting it. Buffing its raw numbers would only make it overbearing in SWF if they actually plan it out and use the perk.
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That said, I do think there is a way to buff the perk that makes it more meaningful in solo, improves the QoL of using the perk, and does not significantly buff duo, trio, nor SWF repairs.
I've been advocating for this awhile, but I really, really want to see the developers make the cast time dynamic and add a larger penalty for getting a 1 roll to offset the lower cast time. Basically, the following would are the changes I would like to see done to this perk (numbers pending):
- Rolling a 1 now makes the lute play on its own for 30 seconds, revealing your location via audio within a 12m range
- Mandatory cast time to keep buff when you roll between 2-10 is 5 seconds
- Mandatory cast time to keep buff when you roll between 11-19 is 10 seconds
- Mandatory cast time to keep buff when you roll 20 is 15 seconds
All of a sudden the skill check threshold to break even with casting on a solo generator is standardized at 6/6/6 for 1/2/3 performance rolls, but your gen rush speed still depends on how high you roll.
If you're curious about the break even thresholds for duo gens under the new cast time, it becomes 4/4/4 for 1/2/3 performance rolls, but your gen rush speed still depends on how high you roll.
So now the perk is more consistent over time, retains its usefulness in burst based on high rolls, is less tedious to use repeatedly thanks to lower mandatory cast times on lower rolls, can still be performed for 15s regardless of roll for memes, and has a bigger penalty on 1 rolls which is thematically relevant to the chapter. The numbers perk effect values don't change and so won't significantly impact SWF either.
You might think 'but the toolbox for solos gave ~16 skill checks, that's a lot of value!' True, but also recall to use it more than once requires Built to Last or Scavenger, which doubled the skill check thresholds. It would actually more than double the thresholds now since the cast time is lower relative to B2L/Scavenger's recharge time. The new break even thresholds with B2L/Scavenger and Bardic for uses after the first would be 19/14/10 for performance rolls of 1/2/3 respectively.
I honestly do not see a single downside to this change, and wish it was implemented so bad.
1 - Do I know which generators are high-value?
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In fairness, this discussion has altered my perception somewhat.
You've hit the problem on the head to be fair. The fundamental problem with this perk is its a team perk, which inherently means you need to play as a team to get its full value. Naturally you can't rely on your team in SoloQ, and means this perk goes the way of a lot of perks... kinda bad in SoloQ, only good in a SWF.
The other problem is that the perk is intended to capture the nature of D&D, which is ofc that your success is dependent on your dice roll. 1 is a critical failure, 20 is a critical success, 2-10 is a bad roll, 11-19 is good... and in terms of that theme it does well. Making it perform well on a 2-10 roll kinda betrays the idea of D&D that is inspiring the perk. This is where I think getting your shorter playback idea through will struggle because it's supposed to be worse getting a bad roll...
There is also the point that Bardic Inspiration in terms of D&D is precisely mirroring what you do in D&D. The Bard would use their action to sing a song to buff everyone else instead of make an attack... it's literally not meant to be solo ability, because that's not it's function in the IP it comes from... Again you'll struggle to push the idea of making it more functional for a solo player.
A couple of changes I might consider: -
- Lower the playtime to 12s
- Cancelling the performance refunds 33% of its cooldown.
The idea shouldn't be to keep fishing for a roll until you get the roll you want, but a 60s cooldown is still a long CD and hardly spammable, while also being a little more palletable. 12s performance is still an investment without being quite so big a sink of time where even the good roll has questionable value.
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Trade em for Killer aura reading?
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Well, first of all, it appears you are mistaken about how Bardic works: it doesn't really matter whether survivors are around you during the performance, they don't keep the effect once they leave your vicinity at any point. So the important thing more so is to be around other survivors during the 90-second active window. I guess survivors around you while you perform already experience the benefits of the perk? But that's negligible, during a mere 15 seconds they may not even get a skill check, and they obviously have to be on a gen or healing next to you to begin with. It's then certainly optimal to already be next to others while you play to get the most value you possibly can from the perk (and perhaps have something like Prove Thyself while you're at it), but that really doesn't change much.
In general I have to go with Beaburd here and say that the perk is barely worth using, and if you roll anything but 11+ it just downright isn't. As he pointed out, 15 seconds spent performing (with the risk of being interrupted and thus having spent that time for naught) will not usually be worth it given the amount of skill checks you are expected to get, as it does not even break even, and what he did not factor in I don't think is the fact that the more skill checks you get, the faster the gen will be done, meaning you obviously can't get more skill checks on that gen, which introduces a cap to the maximum at all likely amount of skill checks you can get lower even than the generous numbers he had used.
The perk gets better if you repair gens with others, but doing that is inherently time-inefficient and also comes with various other downsides or risks. Doesn't mean there aren't times where it's opportune or even optimal to stack up on gens, but it's just not something consistent enough to make this lackluster perk that already relies on RNG much more attractive.
There are some things to be said about it being possible to spend time performing that you would otherwise spend doing nothing much productive (such as waiting out Deadlock or something), essentially getting the benefits "for free", as well as the idea that you can perform in the safety of some hiding place and then pressure a gen with an increased repair speed, which can be relevant in a 3-gen scenario for instance. And there is the fact that the perk shows your aura to others, which isn't without benefit either. But Bardic alone is still really hard to justify spending a perk slot on. All the more so given that the performance being prematurely cancelled incurs the entire 90-second cooldown, for no effect whatsoever.
Bardic isn't bad if you use it alongside Hyperfocus. It (un)fortunately does not affect the latter's progress boost (Hyperfocus still only adds 30/60/90/etc. % of 1%, not of 2-4%), but it causes there to be more skill checks, increasing the likeliness to get decent value out of Bardic. What can also be noted is that while a gen being done faster does naturally decrease the possible amount of skill checks you can get during its repair, Bardic lasts for 90 seconds, which means you can get a gen done and then transition its effect to another one, so the first one being done faster is not necessarily a "bad" thing in terms of getting value out of the perk. But even then, if you roll anything below 11 it's not really worth going through with the performance (unless you have nothing better to do anyway).
I will say that Bardic is better than Prove Thyself, so if you want to use these perks (because you like stacking up on gens for Bloodpoints or some other reason), either use Bardic alone or Prove Thyself alongside Bardic, but not Prove over Bardic.
My suggestions for improvements for the perk would be these:
Make it so Bardic increases the skill check progression value Hyperfocus looks at for its effect. This is already the case for Stake Out, and it would instantly make this combo much more attractive. While the gen speed with this combo could get to be really impressive, I think it would be fine because the vast majority of people simply cannot consistently hit great skill checks under Hyperfocus. Not only that, but in trying to hit increasingly more difficult great skill checks, people regularly miss skill checks altogether, blowing up the gen, incurring 10% regression, a 3-second progress freeze, and announcing their position and the gen they are doing to the killer. That's a huge downside that can even all but nullify any gen speed reduction the perks made for, and lose entire matches.
Or make it so that the perk does not go on cooldown if you cancel the performance early. I think if people just stand around rolling until they get a good result they will still waste more time than the perk makes up for. But if that's not in the spirit of D&D or silly altogether, at least decrease the cooldown if the performance is cancelled, to 30 seconds or so.
Alternatively, make it so that if the performance is cancelled prematurely, the perk's effect is still granted, albeit for a reduced duration. If 15 seconds of performing give you 90 seconds of effect, 10 seconds of performing could give you 60, 5 30, and so on, any second of performing simply translating to 6 seconds of effect.
Another approach entirely would be to make the perk what people thought it would be: If another survivor is within 16 meters of you while you perform (and stay there until the end of the performance), they get to keep the benefit for the 90 seconds too, even if they leave your vicinity afterwards.
A different but obvious way to improve the perk would be to simply buff its numbers. 1 still being the scream (which could even reveal your location to the killer, as compensation for the number buffs), 2-5 being 1%, 6-10 2%, 11-15 3%, 16-19 4% and 20 5%. This would also remedy the "issue" that currently there is barely a difference in the results, where it feels pretty lackluster that rolling an 11 is the same as rolling a 19.
I also like Beaburd's idea to adjust the performance duration to the dice result, with lower results having a shorter duration.
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You dont know how it works either it seems like.
Btw guys, even if you use the perk alone, your mates will acutally benefit from it once you are within i think 16m range again.
Once you used the perk, you actually have a aura with the effect kinda like you were a boon yourself.
Go into custom game and try it yourself.1 -
Personally, I'd only use it if I saw a couple of people working on a gen already. Maximise the time wisely. Playing it with people just standing still doing nothing is risky, because if the Killer spots you together they'll have a feeding frenzy.
Use it when people are doing the gens. That's the best time.
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In fairness, it'd be thematically much better if the effect was just a buff that gets applied when the performance completes to anyone who was in range when the performance was completed.
I know this was how I thought it worked when I read it... and I think this is how most people initially assume it works.
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