Killer Tier List 8.00
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That I can get behind. Well explained.
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I mean there are like 2 pallets she needs to break on the average map and maybe 1-2 windows she struggles a bit at, but I think that is just way too little to be really relevant for her strenght.
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Well you basically decide to go close or wide towards the loop, making an assumption whether or not the killer will curve further out or close towards the loop. Depending on whether or not he has he is in overdrive you need to take that into account because he cannot curve as close to the loop because of the increased speed. In addition to that you can crouch his saw so you don't get clipped by its edges. It really is the same as it always has been. It just got another layer because his overdrive is not always on it means you need to take that into account as well and adapt it into what you do. You can watch some comp footage of how they play against him or maybe the showcase Hens did some time ago when the increased curve window was rather new.
What do you mean by it doesn't matter if you miss saws? You go into cooldown, the survive can reposition... You want overheat back or what?
Not it actually does not mean that... If you buff a killer it can also just make his power more versatile without necessarily removing counterplay. Just because the power can work at different tiles now does not mean it cannot be countered the same way as before.
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Are we talking with all add-ons considered? Across all maps? Controller or M&K? Or both?
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Mikey is not c tier, he outclasses Freddy, Legion, and Nemmy at the very least, arguably the other C+ and B tiers too. if we're feeling spicy i think he's better in pubs than Doc and Clown with his best builds even if he's worse using an average build
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I don't have a computer good enough to record and play. I can send
you my nightlight stats if you really want them but I just recently
started recording the end game screens.Step 1. Only play trapper
if you have 2 good addons and one must be "The trapper sack" no matter
what. You have two options for the other addon "iridescent stone" or
"honing stone". Iridescent stone is going to be better against SWFs or
survivors trying to drive you nuts and for that reason it is the safer
option. "Honing Stone" will just destroy soloQ teams and is more
aggressive in getting quick 4ks against none SWF teams. The reason you
must use the trapper sack, is most of the time wasted on trapper is
running around picking up traps. You will lose 2-3 gens just setting up
your web if you don't play this addon.Step 2. Use Corrupt
intervention, Nowhere to hide, overcharge, and surge. Corrupt gives you
time to set up the traps, on top of either protecting your 3-4 gen or
pushing survivors to your web. Nowhere to hide since we have a kick perk
it pairs well with Overcharge. Overcharge because you want to be
protecting the gens in your web. Surge for the same reason you run
overcharge. The only perk here I would never remove is Corrupt
intervention, the other 3 can be up to you. I recommend running at least
1-2 regression perks that don't require you to scourge hook. The
play-style of iron grasp or Agitation to bring people further into your
web can be equally as strong. Just be aware that a lot of times hooking
someone in the basement can cause a team to give up and hurt your pips.
But if all you care about is winning then a basement hook is almost
always an instant win on trapper.Step 3. The game started now
what? Look around and see what the gens look like, try to find an area
with 4+ gens that you can almost entirely kill all looping or escapes. A
lot of times if a gen spawned in shack you can immediately setup around
that area. The goal is to put down traps in high traffic areas THAT
CANNOT BE SEEN or places that ALWAYS kill a loop. If you put a trap in a
spot where a survivor can see it on a loop, that's a dead trap against
good players. So basically in grassy areas along loops, next to window
vaults, in high traffic doorways, on stairs. A trick for stairs and
doorways is to place the trap slightly down or up the stairs so that it
can only be seen once that player has rounded the corner. If the trap
can be seen in the doorway from far away, they will see that trap.
Remember once you place a trap you cannot move it, it's important that
every trap you place is a good trap.Step 4. Don't get too caught
up in setting traps in your web, if someone is doing a gen inside your
web push them off and prioritize quickly trapping that area. Do your
best to both push people off web gens while also putting down decent
traps.Step 5. Your web is done now what? Easy you just patrol
your web and hit people that try to do your gens. If they run into your
web keep chasing, if they run away from your web, back to patrolling.
You will quickly get the hang of when it's good to keep chasing someone
and when its good to go back to your web. Just don't commit to a chase
long enough that they could finish a gen or get substantial progress on
it while you are gone. If you hook someone away from your web you don't
really need to pressure that hook just go back to your web. If you hook
someone in your web you can somewhat proxy camp and punish the unhook
and in a lot of cases this will result in a free trade. Don't camp so
hard that they can pull themselves off however.Step. Woweee the easiest win of your life.
"This is a repost from another thread, formatting might be trash".
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Addons are considered but its not a direct comparison between best addons, all maps, Keyboard not controller
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But the problem is, if the Billy can see you around any loop this doesn't work at all if the billy has half a brain. If your on a loop he cannot see around its a 50/50 at best, some billies will know how to tilt this even more in their favour. And even if you dodge or crouch it, you'll take an m1 in the back before making it to the pallet because of the recovery time. THe reason it doesn't matter if you miss is because you'll either get m1'd or he'll just take another shot at chainsawing you if he miss's, if he plays right the recover is so minimal you can't do anything about it.
In comp Billy is so strong that he's the only killer in the game who doesn't need to run corrupt which is insane. If you watch anyone like xeno for example play billy in comp its a complete blood bath, there's no chance of escaping.
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Hmmmm maybe someone should put together a list for console then?
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Thats not at all how it is, because even if he sees you he does not know what you will do because you don't move that early... Just watch what comp players do against him, it is really not as bad as you are making it out to be... Even in comp Billy is nowhere near a guaranteed win for the killer.
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Comp players also do things to blight and spirit and nurse, does that make those killers not S tier? No way. Even if you don't think billy is stronger than blight or spirit he's way stronger than any A tier killer like artist or chucky by a mile.
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What does this have to do with anything? You asked for things to do against Billy in chase... I said go watch those guys, they know what to do against Billy in chase and now you tell me it is not valid because they are comp players and also do stuff against other strong killers??
My man if your logic is that you cannot do those things they are doing because you don't play comp level, sure fair enough, you don't have 10k hours to spare or whatever other valid reason... But that is by definition a skill issue... If you cannot be asked to learn and practise counterplay for specific killers then you cannot complain about there not being counterplay... Because you are ignoring the existing things because you don't want to learn those things because they are too hard or too time consuming or whatever... Come on man that is not reasonable... (it is reasonable to not want to spend the time to learn those things, but it is then not reasonable to complain about missing counterplay.)
This was not about the strenght of the killer but about the things you can do against him.
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It’s kind of assumed when people make tier lists that they are being played to the best of their ability. People make them based on their opinion of said killers, not their personal skill with them. So tier lists aren’t pointless at all.
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Disagree
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You think on average people make tier lists based on their own personal skill with said killers?
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What else could you possibly base it on? If not the objective power of a killer what else could it be based on and what would its value be in that case?
Otz for example explains before every one of his tier list videos what the criteria are and what exactly he ranks for. So for him it was the ability to win aka 3 or 4k, with certain restrictions when it comes to higher rarity addons and such. How much skill the killer takes or how good you need to be to make the killer be that good is not a criteria hower.
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Correct, that's always been my understanding
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For most content creators that is not the case as they are quite clear about the criteria they base their tier list on, and given that a subjective tierlist on how good people are with the killer would be quite useless that leaves only the possibility that those average people do the same thing…
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At the very least, there should be 3 separate tier lists: 1 for overall, 1 for the top 5% of MMR, and 1 for the literal 6000+ hour comp players.
Having only one tier list isn’t very useful, and very often gets misused. For example, an average MMR survivor isn’t really playing against S-tier Nurses, because Nurse isn’t S-tier at average MMR. It would be much more helpful if each player could just use a tier list that was personally relevant to them, instead of using a comp tier list that involves 0.0001% of the total players.
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Skull Merchant needs to drop to B. Objectively, she's really just not that good anymore. Better than the ones in C+, but she really just doesn't compete with the others in B+.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
I don’t think almost anyone takes tier lists in that way, be it viewers or creators of said tier list. A tier list of their power but based on the persons own skill wouldn’t make any sense at all. I’ve never heard of anyone interpreting tier lists this way.
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Not really… Because A. a comp tierlist is really not relevant because nobody plays in comp. B. What exactly are we going to do with top 5% and overall… Are you assuming average skill for overall and for top 5% knowing everything, basically playing him like a comp player just not in comp setting? What are you even getting out of this? Because lets for example take Wesker, what techs can an average Wesker player hit? What counterplay can the average survivor consistantly do against wesker? All of that is just way too unspecified… I can agree on two tier lists, one for comp with comp rules and everything, that would basically not really be relevant and a second one for normal pub games.
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The low tiers were pretty predictable. The rest, I heavily disagree on just because I think they also below in lower tiers. Hillbilly is S? Chucky, Deathslinger, and Singularity are A? Like, what?
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The tier list for the average MMR would look something like this. It would be how well each killer does when the average player uses them.
Different killers have different performance levels across the MMR levels. I've said this multiple times, and BHVR has said this multiple times. It's true. When people talk about game balance, they should be talking about how powerful each killer is AT THEIR SKILL LEVEL, because those are opponents they should be matched with.
Yes, the average MMR tier list should have Skull Merchant way up in S-tier, because at that skill level she is overperforming. And it should have Nurse below average tier, because at that skill level she is underperforming.
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Ok, so if the tierlist is entirely based on the killrates, what is its purpose? We don't need to make such a tierlist if this is its basis and it is obviously not something we can use for balancing, because in that case Nurse needs buffs… The only thing we could do is think about why this is the case and how to possibly change it in a way that does not make killers stronger or weaker, and that is not really our job as the player base. We would also need to have two seperate lists for console and pc to take into account the different problems the plattform has for playing the killer.
In other words, if the tierlist is the killrates that behaviour obviously has access to then we as the community don't really need to do anything nor can we do anything, because then it is just a fact that is not really possible to argue about the only thing we can do is think of changes that dont change killers power level but only their accessability… For example give Nurse plaid flannel as an ingame option to turn on or off, same for huntress crosshair or stuff like that. But taking this for balancing would make it so balancing is all over the place. Because everybody knows who the top 3-4 killers are, their order might be up for debate but probably 99% of people know it is and has always been Nurse Blight and Spirit. So based on this, Freddy needs a nerf, because he is above the goal of 60 and nurse needs a buff because she under performs… Which is utterly ridiculous, Freddy is the worst killer in the game. So once again, what are we going to do with this information? Freddy is already a really simple killer, there is not much to know about him, I don't know how to dumb him down even more so people dont feed him kills for whatever reason…
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Freddy isn't the worst killer in the game, because he currently performs well at average MMR. For many DBD players, Freddy is a good killer, and performs well in the game's he is played in. Therefore, BHVR can't just give Freddy random buffs, because buffing Freddy for higher MMR levels would affect his performance at average MMR, and might cause him to overperform at average MMR level.
And BHVR can't just randomly buff Nurse because she underperforms at average MMR, because that might cause her to overperform at high MMR.
And that is the actual reason why it's important to evaluate killers across all the MMR levels. And that is the reason why only having one tier list, at the 6,000+ comp level, isn't useful.
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Well with that reasoning everything becomes relative and every single question about killer strenght will always be answered by saying depends and that will result in endless specifications on the conditions under which killer x can be considered why...
Freddy is the worst killer in the game objectively because his power is a worse version of clown, that only works while survivors are asleep, that cannot be thrown in front of you to prevent survivors from reaching tiles, that only has a slowdown and no haste to tackle safer tiles and on top has a teleport with a big cooldown that becomes worse map traversal the longer the game goes because it cannot target finished gens. On top of that his addons are basically useless.
When we look at killer strenght we look at the tools they have at their hands, and for that we need to assume players know what they are doing, because otherwise the argument will always be "Well but at this mmr the killer performs well because survivors have no clue what they are doing so we cannot buff them" or "Well at this mmr the killer performs poorly because the killer player has no clue how to properly play the killer, so we cannot just nerf the killer". Sure you need to take into account the effects it has on different groups of players, however that does not mean you cannot still buff the killer and try to negate that effect on certain skill levels by making it more accessible.
Nobody does comp tier lists except comp players…not Otzdarva, not Hens, not Ohtofu or god knows who, the vast majority of players go for a good player that know the killer very well, because that is the killers objective potential strenght when played against the people you get matched against in pub games. You don't need tierlist for all that other stuff... A. You don't need a comp tierlist because bhvr does not care about comp, so they need to adjust their rules accordingly anyway. B. Buffing or nerfing should be done based on objective strenght and outliers on certain mmr levels should be countered by qol changes... The reason for this is when a killer under or over performs VS weaker players that is just a skill issue on both sides, because they simply don't know what they are doing. However instead of not buffing or nerfing the killer we are going to help them get the tools to do better. Bad players on nurse have a rough time getting the hang of where the blink goes, so they get a marker. Bad players on huntress struggle to line up shots so we give them a cross hair, bad survivor players struggle against Freddy because he has a lullyby and a weird dreamworld and what do those clocks even do, so we need to make the information about the killer more accessible so they can have the tools at their hands to deal with him. It is really not that hard... Freddy is the worst killer in the game and if you struggle against him that is fully on you... That is something you can improve on fairly easily because of how weak he is, however that is not a reason to not buff him because people seem to be having a rough time against him for whatever reason.
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Spirit being over billy is criminal & you could argue that he's better than blight especially with double iri nerf
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Well, no. We need to realize the majority of players will always be average MMR, even if they played for thousands of hours. This is one of the reasons why BHVR keeps saying that prestiege level isn't a good indicator of skill level. We can't just say "let's ignore the majority of the playerbase, because they have skill issues". Their playing experiences are important too. And dismissing the majority of players as "having a rough time for whatever reason" is super dismissive, and not helpful to those players.
And Nurse has had plaid flannel for years, and she still underperforms the average MMR. Nurse could have basekit plaid flannel, and she would still underperform at average MMR. There is a lot more to Nurse than "getting hang of where the blink goes".
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I agree with this.
However at leats a comp player tier list accurately refelcts killers at the highest level, which is what is most interesting about them. However yes it would help to make lists for other players as well.
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Agree you could, this is a very conservative placement of billy. To be honest billy spirit and blight are all very close in power level atm, i think that they each are better in some scenarios.
People in here will tell you that Billy is A tier tho lol.
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the question is, why does it matter an average MMR survivor player on average dies to freddy? Why does his experience prioritize over the killer experience? A 9000 hour player that plays freddy vs 5000 hour survivor team gets steamrolled. The 9000 hour killer player is unlikely to get better at said killer because the killer has limited power-level potencial. Joe who is stuck at average MMR survivor can get better vs freddy. Your argument is saying that the killer experience should be deprioritized over the survivor experience.
The nurse who struggles to play Nurse can play more games to get better at said killer. these players in lower bracket are able to change their outcomes on their own. If they don't want to do that, than they can accept L's vs players that are better than them at said killer just like Joe who is not good at survivor should accept losses vs killer players better than him.
players can always get better, but you can't ask better players to play worse or get worse for poor balance.
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I thought we were discussing whether billy is S tier or not.
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Well sure, that's how averages work... The issue stays, if you want to balance for average players sure but every buff or nerf always effects other groups differently... And buffs that only effect certain groups of players are rough... Ideally you would make it so that a killer has an easy entry level where people can use him decently and a very high skill ceiling so there is still always something to learn. The issue is just that most killers don't work that way Billy, Blight, Wesker, Nurse Huntress do I guess, but the vast majority of killers just does not have that kind of depth.
Well the point stays, Freddy has the worst tools in the game and it does not make much sense that people struggle against him. Or do you have a reasonable explanation that does not involve people having no clue what they are doing? Because Freddy has no right to have that high of a kill rate... He has nothing to work with.
Plaid flannel was one example... That was just to point the direction of how to possibly help those players.
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How even, you asked for counterplay against Billy... Maybe in the beginning but then the topic changed...
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Well I guess for the guy it is a numbers argument... There are many average players against whom he performs well, but few high level ones where he is terribly weak... But if that is the basis, why did we nerf Blight and Nurse again? They were not over performing...
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that still doesn't answer why the killer player should get free losses every time he faces a strong team because the killer is literal D-tier worthless. Freddy doesn't have a single game-changing add-on to elevate his powers and all of his powers are plagued with drawbacks including -m/s for placing traps which contradict their functionality for hindered, an extremely telegraphed teleport with long channel time and an invisibility gimmick that does not work in any capacity. The oblivious effect in his dream world is also pointless with lullaby in most instances. As a result, he doesn't constitute as stealth killer or "The Nightmare" that he is suppose to be portraying. The average player is losing to a killer that has near dysfunctional power. No idea why you would be balancing around that.
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I mean, no? Freddy has 0 skill expression compared to blight. The potential of each killer is definitely severally different. A game where a good blight barely 2k's a freddy has 0 chance. The potential at the very least is severely different.
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Max potential? Sure. Max skill ceiling? No. Nurse and spirit are nothing compared to the killers that surround them on either end in terms of skill ceiling.
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I don't plan to, like I said I think he is the worst killer in the game and needs buff probably even a full rework... And a killer that is as weak as him and as easy to counter should be buffed and just because for some reason people have no clue how to play against him does not change that.
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OK? You need to elaborate on that... What I meant is the strenght we take into account is the maximum potential on each killer. So the player who plays that killer has reached the skill ceiling of that killer and can draw out its full potential... So it is somewhat synonym... What do you mean?
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What I a mean is that nurse doesn't really have a high skilling. Blight for instance hasn't really had an individual reach his skill ceiling but is nearly comparable to nurse. If we disregard skill ceiling than I agree with you.
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Could you rephrase that? I struggle to understand what you mean?
Reaching the skill ceiling of a killer just means you have mastered that killer, which is bound to the killers max potential. Depending on which killer the skill ceiling might be higher or lower. And it is not relative to the potential strenght of a killer, Billy before his buffs was the hardest killer in the game, highest skill ceiling, but he was super weak. About Nurse's skill ceiling, while it might not be considered as high as others in pub games, but when asked KNightlight said in comp Nurse is the hardest killer. So I would say she is hard, when people know what they are doing which they more often than not don't in pub matches.
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Like I said.. pointless
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You cannot prove a general statement wrong by giving a singular example of success... Also the result does not say anything about the effort or how hard or easy it was, how different the skill of the players was and so on and so forth. Even if you win 100 games in a row on Freddy it does not change that he objectively does not have much killer specific skill expression and very weak tools at hand.
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You are literally making my point for me.
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Just tried it against a swf. They just had 1 injured person constantly disarm my traps, so everyone on their team stays healthy.
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Not really, you are simply entirely misunderstanding the point...
To make it even easier to understand, let say the statement was the further away from the the target you want to hit when throwing ball the harder it gets, and to disprove that statement you show a video of you still hitting it... Why is that relevant? This does not disprove the statement, it is still true that it is harder, just because you hit the shot does not mean that's not the case. And now back to the topic... Mechanically demanding killers are harder to play than a killer like Freddy or Legion, because not only is there far more to know about the killer from its mechanics you also need to practise applying your knowledge. Freddy however can be mastered withing an hour max, because there is so little about him to learn, he has no depth. And that is what is meant by skill expression, when you look at a beginner Blight and then you look at V1 or Lilith Omen it is clearly visible who is the better player. When you do the same for Freddy it is very similar, because there is not much that sets apart better from worse players.
And for your statement of tierlist are pointless because it depends on the player no they are not... Tierlist take into account the objective potential the killer has when played to its limits. That's what everybody assumes when making tierlist, just because you somehow are oblivious to that fact does not change that…and oblivious because if you ever watched a tierlist video people make it very clear how they rate and what they into account... And give that standpoint you might need to change your opinion when someone presents you with a tierlist, because most likely they also assume the best the killer can perform, otherwise just ask them about the criteria... Pretty sure they will tell you.
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Who are you to speak for "everybody" making a tier list 😆
Anyway, if you think they're special or whatever, that's cool.
I'm also entitled to my opinion.
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Because either they are entirely pointless and there would never be a debate about, because who are you to rate how good another player is on a certain killer... Or all those people arguing about where to put a killer on a tierlist do that for a reason because it is about objective strenght, something that can be determined argued about...
And like I said before, every tierlist video out there that I have seen by dbd content creators did exactly that and even made it clear in the beginning of the video.
Sure I guess... But the thing is it is not really an opinion but a factual statement, so unlike an opinion there is an objective right or wrong here... Because the intent people have when making a tierlist is a fact, and as I have said 3 times now, at least content creators are very open about the intent of the tierlist and what gets ranked... Even video game magazines have tierlist and explain what they are based on... And until now nobody ever came up with the idea of it being subjective to the player that plays the character... As this would indeed make it entirely useless... Which leaves us with two options... Either you misunderstood or everybody else is arguing about a person's skill that they don't know, which would be nonsense.
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