Does anyone feel like the pace of the game is a little too fast nowadays?
I just feel like most games 4-5 gens are getting done. On killer it is really annoying by the time I have found, chased, downed and hooked 1 person 2 gens are done and a 3rd is 50%+. Or 3 gens are really close to being done. On solo-q is just as annoying. I hate getting found first, chased, downed and hooked in less than 2 min and spend most of my time on hook rather than doing gens and helping teammates. If this happened every now and then ok it's not a big deal but this is nearly every game for both cases. Makes this game really frustrating at times.
I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
The sad part is that idk what to do to fix it and make it so that every player has a chance to play the game and not feel super stressed out. Buffing either side too much would make play miserable for the other side.
Anyone have any ideas on what could be done to make the pace of play "balanced"?
Also, if there was some data on avg number of gens done and avg match time that would help. Cause I seriously feel like its 4.0 + for gens and time is less than 10 min per match.
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I would like to know the average time survivors need to sit on a Gen to complete it. It can go between 3 survivors with Prove thyself to a survivor on Gen that got hit by 3-4 slowdowns 3 times.
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it definitely feels that way my survivor games from 4 years ago definitely felt naturally longer
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I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
What... What exactly is the complaint here? 'I won, but survivors got close/had a chance'?
Do we want games to close out with 2+ gens left all the time?
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The games being close is ideal. The gens should get finished on a regular basis. It means both sides have a chance. If most of your games are you winning with two gens done then there is a problem. Longer games just means making the game even more killer sided than it already is. That just doesn't work on these tiny maps that have enormous deadzones and weak pallets.
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First hook in 2 min is borderline winning for survivors, that's literally four gen worth of seconds
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I would enjoy killer more if it didn't feel like every chase that lasted longer than 20 seconds was throwing the game. But I have no idea how to slow the game down in a healthy way, without making killer too oppressive.
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"I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem."
I think you dont really understand how the pace of the game works.
The pace of the game works in a way that Survivors are strong at the start, but get weaker over time (Ressources aka Pallets are gone, Survivors lose Hook States, Survivors have to play more careful), while the Killer starts weak and gets stronger the longer the game goes.
Also, when it comes to Gens, you should realize that while a Gen is technically 20% of all Gens which need to be completed, the actual time itself is way different. The first 2 or even 3 Gens can be completey very quickly, but this does not mean that all Gens will be repaired. Especially Gen 5 usually takes longer than the 4 Gens before. Killers should not expect to end the game with 5 Gens still up, if this happens, there was a matchmaking issue because the Survivors were way worse than the Killer they played against.
If you experience games where you get 3 or 4 Kills and there are only 1 or even no Generators remaining, this looks like Matchmaking is working for you. Close games are usually a sign that you play against equally skilled opponents, which is good. And in the end, losing 2, 3 or even 4 Gens early does not really matter, since as long as the Survivors did not repair 5 Gens, they wont have a chance to win.
But if you say you want more 4Ks with less Gens being done, you are basically just asking to get less skilled Survivors, so you can stomp them more. Because in the end, you are winning already, you just want to win more.
Post edited by Aven_Fallen on20 -
I see the trend of killers giving reasons to deny the kill count they got, so Devs can buff them for more kills.
- 60% kill doesnt mean 50% win rate.
- Survivors made mistakes, if not the kill rate would be lower (I mean…really?)
- Blame on MMR mismatching weaker survivors to killers…while actively looking for easier teams
- Blame on survivors inflate kill rate by suiciding on hook…with a teammate already dead..with 4 Gens remaining.
- 2000 win streak Blight doesnt mean Blight is broken
- Now we have I got 4K doesnt mean Gen time is long enough.
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Have you even read it whole?
Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
The sad part is that idk what to do to fix it and make it so that every player has a chance to play the game and not feel super stressed out.
Basically change whole pace of the game and get slower start to help killers feel less stressed, then help survivors later to give them fighting chance and keep escape rate on similar levels.
Issue is this would be hell to balance.
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You've intentionally avoided survivors who suicide on first hook, and which will obviously inflates KR due to 1 suicide basically means 3K minimum
And objectively speaking, win streak is always an outlier and means nothing, whether it's 500 or 99999 doesn't matter, because if you include that literally everything in this game is "broken"
You are talking as if all that is wrong, but ultimately just showing that you are mocking people without actually understanding most it
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Yeah kinda why slowdown is so meta as usual
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Can't understand the philosophy of "oh no, 4 gens got done before I got my 4k, how terrible!"
Some of my favorite, most memorable games where I had the most fun, were games where I got a 4k by faking a walk-past the gen the last injures survivor was about to complete while carrying someone, or where I transformed an 8 hook 0k into an 11 hook 3k with blood warden, or it was otherwise incredibly close around the endgame.
I for one would much rather have a lot of games where I manage the win at 4-5 gens done. A win with 1 gen complete is generally a snoozefest stomp in my experience
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Agree
Games should be like 10-15mins MAX and yeh it should be close that's what makes it fun otherwise it's killer shooting fish in a barrel 🙄
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Do we want games to close out with 2+ gens left all the time?
The answer here, unfortunately, is yes in too many cases.
Ever since about 6.1.0 and the gen kick meta, way, way too many killers have moved the goal post on what a 'win' entails. A 4k means nothing to some people if gens are completed.
Basically gens are the main objective for some killers now, so it only counts as a win of it's a 4k with 5 gens remaining. Otherwise it's a loss, for some reason.
I don't know how the devs can fix this mentality. The gens are not the objective, the survivors are.
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My point here was worded a bit wrong looking back at it. I meant that in terms of fun/enjoyment of the match just cause I got a 3 or 4k doesn't mean that the match was fun. (Kill rate doesn't really matter) Every game today (it feels like) is just a race to the finish. Survivors do nothing but sit on gens all day and killers have to do some tunneling/slugging etc. to keep up. It makes the match for both sides not as fun. I hate getting tunneled off hook when I barley had a chance to play the game, do gens, save people, occasionally have a good chase. For killer having 2 -3 hooks by the time 3 gens are done is really annoying cause now ur stressed out trying to generate pressure with only 2 gens to work with.
If this happened every now and then it would be fine but the fact that it is nearly every game for both sides makes the fun of a match not as fun as it was years ago. It makes perks really annoying too since everyone has to run the same stuff to keep up pace. I wish I could run some more silly perks or try new interesting builds but the pace of the game makes that impossible.
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Whenever a trial takes more than 15 minutes, people start complaining. So it's no surprise that devs would nerf ways to extend the match forcing both sides needing to play as aggressive and fast as possible.
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Too many killers think their objective is to stop generators from popping but that’s not true. Your objective is to sacrifice all survivors. Defending generators is simply a means to an end. The longer generators take to get done, the more time you have to kill all the survivors.
MMR is based on kills only and not amount of generators left. My favorite matches of all time are the ones where survivors pop all gens in 6 minutes and I kill them all anyways.
You should NEVER be discouraged by losing gens, you should be picking which gens you to lose and which ones to keep. Certain gens aren’t worth defending and waste too much time. If MMR is doing its job correctly you should almost never be winning with 2+ gens left unless survivors make huge mistake or you’re playing Nurse or Blight lol.9 -
First hook in 30 seconds is still winning for them.
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Okay, I’m going to write this as best as I can without kicking the beehive (despite my playful addiction of riling up Survivor mains).
The best answer is to first find a play style that you enjoy. This includes Killer, perks, addons, and offerings. Find a set up that is really fun to use regardless of how Survivors play.
Then, let MMR take care of the rest. The first chunk of games you get will be lopsided against you, but if you stick with it the MMR will eventually start giving you opponents where your play style is valid.
You’ll still get a a well coordinated team from time to time but overall your unique fun perk experiments will eventually become valid to use.
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The killer in no way gets stronger later in the game, nor do survivors get weaker. You can break pallets, but then there's still more pallets. Good survivors are not gonna give you time to create all these deadzones without also finishing the gens in that time. Besides the time spent on hook, survivors are still at full efficiency while injured, first hook, second hook, until they are dead, simply because they can still work on gens. Not doing your job as a fully efficient killer, aka not tunneling, is basically handing all the power to the survivors to get their objective done at the cost of your own. What we've been seeing for years is killers, whether they're tunneling or not, downing survivors in chase back to back really fast, and the gens got down to 1 or they all got done. Like, "Really? These guys got that far? For doing what?" That should be alarming, because it means that survivors who actually do know how to loop will win by default, even though the killer basically couldn't play better. That's what he's mad about. Of course we want less skilled survivors, which is against my nature because I generally want opponents equal to my skill, because when we do get equally skilled survivors, they can go down in chase constantly and still escape.
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If you think that the Killer does not get stronger the longer the game goes on, you dont understand the fundamentals of the game. Simple as that.
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You can get way more games in these days with the same amount of time as before. People cried about gens taking 10 more seconds, but then survivors just got more efficient and negated the change. I can't believe how easy we used to have it, my bumbling friends and I just beating all these killers. Now that the gen change and MMR is here we have to work for it a little more, and suddenly they don't want to play. They get frustrated and insult the killer because of their own unwillingness to improve. That's why I fly solo in both roles, and don't ever take SWF's feelings into account on balancing. The game should be balanced for the greater good, not people who just want easy matches.
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While I agree with the first part, I am curious what maps exactly are tiny with enormous deadzones? The only maps I can think off is Haddonfield, the upside of Forgotten Ruins and maybe Rancid Abattoir.
I also wouldn't call DBD fully killer sided, it very much depends on lots of different factors.
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DBD is quite "old game" and even newer players and casuals are getting more in touch with the "meta strats" on how to win - single spread on gens, tunnel/force struggle if survivors does not save. You see a video even from casual content creator and, if they are not trolling, they are talking about """""comp""""" strats and how to try to turn a match and guarantee a victory.
Maybe this can change with more mechanics added to the game but i believe this a very hard to problem to solve, as assym games are very susceptible to this kind of playstiles - VHS, Texas and other assym i've played all suffered from the "rush meta" and their consequences.
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That sounds ideal close games should happen more often. It's also stressful for both sides but you can reduce the stress setting yourself other goals than just 3-4K. The game is now balanced around more for killer with 60% kill rate so making games longer at this point would only make killers stronger.
Many maps are made smaller and amount of pallets reduced so long games are just not possible survivors have to get the gens done quickly or they certainly lose. Tunneling/camping are also very strong.
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Unfortunately, I think step one is going to have to consist of tackling a problem that's roughly as old as DBD itself is: Tunnelling and camping. You can't extend games without mucking up the balance if those elements are still in play.
And as much as people have suggested slowing the game down by doing that, it's never gotten a lot of traction because generally, the community hates the idea of losing tunnelling and camping for some reason.
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DbD is a horror themed game with an elimination metric, both of those necessitate a speedy level of play.
Most games should be getting to 0-1 gens if the matchup is actually balanced. If the killer is consistently winning with more gens then that, it probably can't even be called competitive (rare exceptions might apply). The game isn't meant to proceed like a Team Deathmatch FPS where in a balanced match both teams kill counts should go up at roughly the same pace. In DbD the survivors have a much easier time with their objective at the start, far more difficult as the game progresses.
For killer having 2 -3 hooks by the time 3 gens are done is really annoying cause now ur stressed out trying to generate pressure with only 2 gens to work with.But what would your ideal game be? 2 gens and 3 hooks might be a fine situation depending on a number of factors.
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Obviously we aint talking about that were talking about how fast 1-2 gens pop in first chase and how hopeless it is to comeback from it Devs just need to give killers a way to circumvent the dc penalty like survivors do if i can't have fun i want out same as go next survivors can
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So tunneling and camping is the best strategy for this logic run an instadown killer to prevent saves while using slowdown perks to delay the survivors
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YOu can't expect a game to be 10-15 min max when the killer has to win lets say 9 chases on average, hook, kick gens, travel to another gen to find someone
It's mathematically impossible. Thats why pain res is such a popular perk, thats why grim is such a popular perk. It let you actually earn some time. Nerfing those perk and keeping the gen rush meta on survivor side (resi, deja vu, PT, comodious toolboxes) makes the game shorter yes, but heavily favors survivors.
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It absolutely is unfortunately. All MMR looks at is kills, it doesn’t matter if you only hook them all once and camp them all to death. That’s why True and Otz have been pushing for this game to be hook based over the past year with a suffering mechanic. That way a killer who tunnels and camps people out would derank. But Bhvr doesn’t want to do that for a few reasons.
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The astounding mentality of " I won, but gens popped too fast; let's slow it down." is something that NEEDS to be studied because it's a dead giveaway of borderline entitlement.
Like…? If you won, move on. You achieved the task given to you at an incredibly boring rate and yet it's not enough? Don't know about most people here but if a killer gets 2/3 hooks on a survivor/getting a survivor to death-hook before first gen pops; that's a stomp unless the survivor gets lucky and finds hatch, let's be honest here.
Are we just gonna continue shifting the goal post of what's considered a win? Because right now, it seems like most killers lead with the " If I ain't steamrolling them out the gate, I'm not winning." or " If It's not a 4k before 3rd gen, I didn't win."8 -
The pacing of the game doesn’t allow the early generators to be slower than they currently are. Killers are allowed to properly defend the last 2 generators, because the first few generators can be repaired very quickly.
If the game was changed so that the early game was slower, then the last 2 generators would need to be much easier for the survivors to repair, which means killers wouldn’t be able to defend them anywhere near as easily. And when killers can’t properly defend generators, there isn’t as much tension in the game.
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At this point, it's probably just as simple as nerfing toolboxes. Survivor perks are pretty balanced, and with the slowdown nerfs on the killer side I think they're in a good spot too (other than weak killer like trapper and freddy, but they should get individual changes).
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I'm pretty sure when most people have sentiments like "I won but gens went too fast," they're referring to their win being subject to massive misplays in the end/lategame.
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Ok so if we are talking about the base game…
5 Gens at 90 charges each (placements are RNG
Killer has to hit each Survivor 2 times to down them
3 Hooks to Kill a Survivor
Survivors can heal and Killers can kick Gens
SO the gauge of a match is Gens…. IF I get a 4K with 4 Gens done that was a close match but if I get a 0K with 5 Gens done that was a stomp and same when I get a 4K with 0-1 Gens done
Gens have to be achievable for the sake of the Game but Gen speeds are up in the air for both progression and regression… them taking 45-90 seconds to complete a Gen and 180-360 seconds to regress a Gen (give or take for both of those numbers
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The generators are becoming so fast that survivors prioritize getting hit by the killer, and not healing themselves to genrush. It is more valuable to make 3, 4 or 5 gens than 2 or 3 hooks. Then they heal each other, rescue the camping one and leave.
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You mean killers who actively play the easiest way to win…should get easier teams?
While I keep the game fun for survivors that first kill at 7-8 hooks get punished by high MMR bully squad?
Killers who want to get kills the easiest way, should match with survivors who wants the easiest escape.
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I never once said that so I’m not sure where you are getting that from. I’m stating the fact that the MMR only counts kills. This is not my opinion, this is proven fact confirmed by devs. Tunneling killers do get better opponents currently so it’s working like you think it should.
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And I pointed out the reason why MMR should work like that.
Killers who want to get kills the easiest way, should match with survivors who wants the easiest escape.
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Every single survivor game I've played over the last few days has been 3-4k, usually by 3 gens. My only exit gate escape was given to me by a Vecna after i rolled a 20 and got the Eye. He obviously wanted to help me get the achievement (thank you kind stranger). Otherwise I've had a couple hatch escapes. The anniversary event is my favourite time of the year, I've literally been counting down to it, but I hope this isn't an indication of how games will be over the next couple weeks.
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