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Scott Jund's idea on how to fix Base Generator Regression - what do y'all think?
Comments
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I think this is to oppressive in lower mmr.
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Well good thing then that MMR doesn't exist and has basically zero actual factor on game balance
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It's pointless to fix anything until SWF, the core problem of the game, is addressed.
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Can we please normalize giving people a written summary of a video, instead of expecting them to watch an entire video?
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MMR does exist. Just because they’re not transparent about it and we don’t know the details of it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. This is an illogical fallacy to claim that something doesn’t exist just so that your point can’t be refuted with it.
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No sir
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He basically said killers should have different base regression depending on strength. His example
He want the devs to rank them in tiers essentially...
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That doesn't work, because the devs made it very clear that different killers can perform differently in different MMR levels. This especially won't work if the plan was to balance it around 6,000+ hour competitive DBD tier lists, which affects like 0.0001% of the playerbase. The vast majority of the players are average MMR, and they need to be considered.
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you can't without killing soloq unless the fundamentally rework the game and personally i don't see swf as a problem
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I didn't read the comments of his vib but i would be shock if anybody thought it could work.
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It's a good idea, we need to break the idea that all killers should be treated the same.
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It's an interesting idea but as others point out, how do you make this work across all MMR bands? A Nurse at low MMR is surely one of the worst performing Killers, but she over performs at the top end of the scale. So how would they decide the base regression for a Killer like her? Likewise, Legion probably over performs at low MMR, but is incredibly weak up against a strong SWF.
The ironic thing is, I currently don't run gen regression on Billy at all because I find I don't usually need it and can generate pressure quickly with some fast downs. But if BHVR lowered his base gen regression rate, I'd maybe feel like I'd need to run at least something, and this could make the games much harder to win for the Survivors that I might typically get in my lobbies.
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It's pointless to engage in any discussions surrounding SWF with that person. They're the same person who refuses to believe the official stats released by BHVR because they don't see the evidence of those stats (completely ignoring how they'd need access to match results for every game to find an average)
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Also we need to break the idea that we are forced to play a specific killer
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The devs have already considered and dismissed the idea of having customized per-killer features like this.
They said they considered things like varying break speeds and varying gen times per killer and have already stated they will not do anything like that.
Scott should already know that, he's been here long enough.
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As has been said, it doesn't work because different killers perform differently at various MMRs. Nurse is the best killer in the game at higher MMRs but the worst at low MMRs. Killers like Pig and Pinhead dominate at low MMR but Pig especially is weak at high MMR.
If you buffed Pig's gen regression speeds because she's bad at high MMR, she'd only stomp even more at lower MMR.
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I think it is bad because it creates yet another number that BHVR will horribly balance. They'll see that nurse has a low kill rate and her number will be high.
The thing that really just needs to be done is what they do with killers where addons become/feel "required" buff the basekit, and nerf the perks.
If killers had say:
- 10% base kick regression
- 200% base regression
- 30 second base corrupt
- 30 second base corrupt on hex totems
- Time to kick gens becomes 1 second instead of 1.8
- Nerf all the gen defense perks by about 25%-50% (depending on the perk) or just reworking ones that need it.
Things would be in a better spot, and this would be a good start to fixing stacking 4 gen defense perks, and gen defense being required for the balance of the game.
Post edited by Reinami on3 -
Wow that's a terrible suggestion, no offense but killers like billy, nurse, and blight should never get any kind of buffs.
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Then adjust accordingly based on MMR.
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I like how billy is suddenly in this list these days, and blight still is despite massive nerfs.
But did you miss the part where i said to basically cut gen defense perks in half? The point is to do the thing they do with killers, when something like say:
Hey, deathslinger reload time feels bad when you don't have the addon, so now instead the reload speed being 2.8 seconds and the addon lowers it to 2.3 seconds, the default is 2.6 seconds and the addon still lowers it to 2.3 seconds.
So the idea is, if you take the perks, its probably about as strong as it was, and if you don't it doesn't feel bad. How you translated that into "i can't believe you want to buff nurse" is beyond me.
The fact that there is only a handful of competitively viable killers at top mmr, yet there are 30+ killers, is a big problem. We need to be fixing the 30+ killers that need to be fixed before we worry about the couple of ones that are too strong.
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You may have noticed this, but even on a good day the MMR system rarely puts 5 players of equal skill together in a lobby. So if every lobby is of varying skill levels, how would this work?
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Now this creates a system that is extremely complicated to understand from a player perspective. Also, in order to do such a system, they would need to show your MMR which they won't do.
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Then why is MMR even a thing. It should be shown imo. It just leaves people frustrated not knowing.
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SIlly idea that BHVR is never going to accept. In the devs' eyes, all characters are equally potent. Of course we know that's not true and never will but that nonetheless is how every company in charge of a PvP game functions (and rightfully so). Gen regression has been messed with enough already and I don't think this change is going to improve the balance of Nurse and other problematic killers in any noticeable way.
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Doesn't exist meaning it has barely an impact on who you get matched with, sure it is an exaggeration, but it has been discussed for quite some time and should be known by now. Also even if they are not transparent about it, we know a lot because data miners gathered information, just check out the wiki and see for yourself.
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So they cannot change their mind? They nerfed Billy a lot and then made him stronger again... I don't think such stuff is set in stone.
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I think kicking a Gen is already 2 seconds, maybe even less...
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No, there's plenty of killers that are viable at top mmr. It's just there's a handful that have a guaranteed 100% winrate at high mmr because their powers are fundamentally overpowered.
Second, basekit buffs are insanely more powerful than nerfing a handful of perks because that opens up perk slots. Would you be okay if all survivors got basekit off the record and sprint burst but made the perks a lil bit weaker?
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If I'm understanding correctly, this won't work because you tend to see the stronger killers in higher MMR where they tend to go against stronger opponents. So less gen regression would negatively affect long term experienced players (ie those who probably spend the most money on the game too) while making things harder on new/low MMR survivors who will likely now have more gen regression to deal with than high MMR survivors. Not to mention, BHVR have already said that "weaker" killers perform very well in low-mid MMR. I think the easiest option is just stick with the killer/s you are comfortable with, though that wouldn't help content creators like SJ who need to play every killer for views and content.
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Top mmr does not really mean much, because it is not the same as top level players... Let's just say there are only a hand full of killers that work well against really good survivors...
Well fairly obviously we need buffs to the basekit of many killers, the weaker ones... I don't really think that is comparable to those perks you mentioned though.
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You can say that about many content creators but Scott is not one of them xD He does not even play half the killers, because he finds them very boring and only does so when he gets a build request ^^
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I think you are just not playing some killers well if that's what you think.
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OK dude, show me the 1v1 matches VS a pure m1 killer against a comp level survivor that consistently last less than 2 or 3 min on a decent map... Certain mechanics just don't work against really good players and that even in a scenario where both sides are of equal skill... I never said this is something you encounter in normal matchmaking. In most matches every killer can win, but when you get really good survivors every once in a while it is really rough with some of them, and no matter what you do and how good you play you won't win this game... And I don't think that should be the case, if you play better you should be able to win and you should not be limited by the killer.
Also disregarding my point because you think I just play bad is such a petty move... Are you telling me that Freddy for example has anything in his kit that makes good players break out in a sweat? There are for sure a lot of killers that need basekit buffs, just because their kit lacks so much.
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It's pointless to cry about swf at this point. Game is so much more bearable if you have people to interact or talk with.
Solo que is just miserable and I never que up for this. I will always have swf and I don't want to be punished for it because our escape rate is not that high anyway.
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Swf is a non issue people overestimating their own skill is the problem, if the killer player isn't good enough in 2024 after all these changes they're never gonna be good without tearing the game completely apart to give them a clear advantage, that's the cold hard facts whether anyone here can accept it or not. Swf hasn't been broken for a couple years now and in fact I bet you beat them alot of times without even knowing they're a group, a solid group with communication at the core of it is still a solid group and even if you take communication away it won't take the skill away from those players they'll still do gens and loop just as well while making plays for eachother.
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While True in its core I would say it neglects the benefits it has against setup and stealth killers... There are just certain times when it gives you a benefit that cannot be gained otherwise, but ofc it does not suddenly make survivors better in chase... But it can give them more of a warning when and where to run.
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See and I disagree because smart players won't give the killer time to setup, if I'm facing a trapper I'm immediately taking in chase when I see the trap on the ground as I spawn in because I now have the information and can't give him time to set up any area, as for stealth I mean yea you could probably argue that but 9 times out of 10 that's still not changing the situation because let's say I'm being chased by Ghostface and he cloaks up and leaves me for my friend nearby on a gen, I don't have to tell my friend anything the HUD tells him I'm not in chase anymore and the terror radius suddenly disappeared, it's about game sense at the end of it all and if a group has that then communication is irrelevant and won't matter either way , they could all be muted and still win
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So for the Trapper example if you do know it is a Trapper and you know where is and that he is placing traps then maybe you will do that, but if you just spawn in and sit on a generator you will probably not find out so quickly, but maybe your team does and then you can do something about it. Also it still provides weaker players exactly that advantage, because they maybe don't play optimal because they are not constantly disarming his traps, but they do call out where he has been and therefore where traps can potentially be... It maybe does not grant the same advantage for players on all levels but it does grant some... For example coordinating to hold a trap open so you can vault a window or something, that is an advantage and you will not be able to get your mate to do it for you because how would they know.
The HUD does not immediately tell them you left chase, this takes a few seconds, either you are exposed anyway or he just 99%ed you and then left in which case OK, what if he is still on you though? During those few seconds the HUD takes to stop the chase animation, this can be enough for him to get into a position to stalk the person on the Gen. For Myers this works even better because his heartbeat is quite small anyway, and taking an unexpected angle is super hard when you have a person following you around from safe distance and telling everyone to pre run... I would say that is quite a big difference, same goes for Ghostface... You see better players might able to negate such benefits, but worse players won't and on indoor maps it just does not matter whether you are good or bad if a Myers with a 6m terror radius pops up right besides you, there is nothing you can do even with game sense... While you might able to understand that the survivor you saw close by with bond was the one chase and when the chase on the HUD stops he might go for you, this is something a swf on comms can just call out without even needing bond...
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See but you're arguing about weaker players and I'm arguing that about strong players not being affected it's 2 different things were discussing here, I will say that even if they are weaker communication won't suddenly give a weak team the edge unless the killer is just as bad as they are
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It will give them a benefit, increasing their odds of winning, is that not enough already?
Well on better players communication is massive... Not only for the macro game but also to decide where you go, because you can just know which resources are still up, you don't need to use certain perks that help you with that. Killers will already struggle against good players, but I don't think you can deny that clock callouts and information about everything that is going on during the match is a valuable resource to have... Take indoor maps for example... Ghostface on Lerys... There is reason why he gets played on that map in comp, and why it is entirely possible for him to even win, despite Ghostface overall being on the weaker side... There are a lot of situations where information is key, and it is just available when you can ask your team things.
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Lol of course it helps I'm not arguing that, I'm simply stating that a strong team will still be strong without the comms , I genuinely don't even get why you're arguing at this point you agreed earlier that a strong player would still have game sense without communication and now I feel like you're trying to troll or something by changing the subject of the argument everytime you reply, so I'll make myself more clear , a good swf will be a good swf even without communicating even though it does help them they don't have to have it and chances are they're BSng in a voice chat because they're friends, a weaker team can be slightly stronger with comms BUT it doesn't make their skill go up they still go down fast and still make bad decisions and really only a killer that's worse than them to begin with will feel overpowered and helpless because skill doesn't just magically appear when the mic gets turned on
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Sure, but it will be even stronger with comms... I'm just saying that there are things that cannot be done by game sense alone, there is a difference between what can be known with game sense and what cannot.
It helps them with efficiency for sure, I don't think the killer needs to necessarily be weaker than them to feel overpowered... Even if they go down fast they can still reliably spread up in a certain way and use their advantage in the macro game to negate their lack of skill in chase.
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I mean, they can.
But it's not like this is some kind of mind blowing original idea that the devs have never thought of before.
The concept was considered in depth and rejected.
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I mean let's be honest here, the devs are nowhere near perfect in their decision making and some rather recent killer designs or gameplay decisions show how terrible their ideas sometimes are, with that in mind I do think that some of rejected ideas were far better than they assumed they would be... I mean they resisted for years to have other game modes or modifiers and now look how popular they are... If they would not have been so stubborn to not introduce them earlier the game could be far bigger right now than it is currently in the sense of active player base... Look at old games that have a lot of custom games and how many people still play them, despite the lack of new content from the devs of those games...
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I'm not sure why you're feeling so combative here.
I simply said the devs had rejected ideas very similar to this before, and then even agreed they could change their mind.
At no point have I even injected my own opinion on the matter, this is literally just facts about DbD history here.
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Well sorry if it seemed like I was aggressive towards you ^^
It is just that the devs tend to mess up so bad I really wonder how the game is still alive... Like Pinhead on release had a broken lunge, no clue how they managed that... They broke vault distances for female characters like 4 times now, how is that even a thing considering survivors are only skins? The options of the game are so little to customize that I have games from the early 2000s that are more user friendly in that regard and many more such things, but instead of Adress sing such stuff and doing something to make the game better they release and exorbitant amount of overprizes cosmetics and pat themselves on the shoulder for doing a good job... It is really ridiculous. Nurse is broken since 2023 when it comes to her field of view and some other things... Then they create characters with the most obvious flaws and wonder why nobody likes that character, but also never really fix it... It is mind blowing...
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if they limit what perks full swfs can use Im down for this change
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The idea is flawed at concept because it relies on the developers to have a good understanding of killers "tier" in terms of power which as evident throughout the games history of balance changes I would not say they do.
I also think his statement on if the game had base regression built in that people would still just stack more regression is wrong. Basically no one is saying to add base regression and then keep all regression perks the same, that would be silly. So I think that's misrepresenting what people generally say. What people do generally say is that if they did put base regression that they would heavily gut all gen regression perks. If they were nerfed that hard you would not still see people stacking them after base kit regression was implemented as then their value level compared to chase or info perks would be significantly less.
Base regression instead of just adding faster kick regression like he wants would also be healthier as it only rewards playing well. Not being literal here but just for example, base kit Pop or PR only gives value if you are able to down and hook people. His idea of base kick regression gives the value to everyone, no matter what. So that rewards bad players and hurts lower mmr players where regression is much less necessary and killers generally do really good already.
Yes there are a few outlier killers that inhibit base changes, but there aren't that many outliers. Just tone down the few outliers and the problems solved. I don't understand why we spend years inhibiting good changes for the entire killer roster just because Nurse and Blight exist. We need to stop balancing the game around small exceptions to general rules.
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Conceptually, this seems like a good idea, but it creates a lot of potential issues.
1: Killer tiers - while there is agreement on the top and bottom of the scale, there is massive disagreement around the middle. Especially when factor in not just MMR, but the different regions.
2: Creates static killer meta. If we make the base kit really high to buff Trapper, then you create a meta where every Trapper runs gen kick perks to add on to that.
3: Some killers never kick. Nerfing some of the top killers gen kicks wouldn't matter, because using that time to kick is already kind of a waste when you could be chasing instead.
4: Easy to argue about, hard to notice. Slight nerfs / buffs are the things players love to argue about, and while they have effects overt the millions of DbD games that are played every week, most players wouldn't really notice. So no one is actually enjoying the game more, but the balance team is spending a lot of time on it.
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I couldn’t think of anything worse than giving killers regression based on theorycraft tier lists.
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