Hook Regen is Fine but 60s is too generous.
It should be 180 seconds to be in line with Breakdown imo.
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It shouldn't break in the first place, much less 60 seconds. It serves no healthy purpose in extended death break times other than making dead zones where you can't hook survivors and forcing them to slug. That isn't good design.
Give me a rational argument why hook breaks on death are a good/healthy thing for the game in any aspect whatsoever.
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Likely not a "rational argument" but I can see how the threat of hook breakdowns is the killer side of, the risk of survivors 3-genning themselves. It forces you to manage how and where. There's always multiple hooks in a location, anyway. Even the loss of scourge hooks are easily avoided by remembering who is on death hook.
And as for it being "in line" with Breakdown - that would defeat the existential purpose of the whole perk…
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I don't know why it even has 60 seconds, should never break in the first place.
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Na, its okay for me..
It would allow killers to still using scourge hooks. 😊
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I'd argue where you go down is more up to the survivor than the killer so I don't think that's a fair argument.
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100% agree. 120 or 180 seconds would be much more reasonable than 60 seconds. If you are creating hook deadzones as a killer then that means you are not managing your hooks properly. There should be some sort of consequence for playing poorly, even if the game will forgive you after a set timer. 60 seconds is simply too sort to feel any sort of consequence.
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Why on earth should hooks have to be something you manage? Like what's it add to the game? It's just an inconvenience for everyone for no reason.
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Why is hook death good/healthy? It provides another macro skill avenue for Killer, discourages tunneling, and discourages camping.
For the macro skill, I am forced to think about my actions and where I want to kill a Survivor. Do I hook them in the quick corner, or risk a sabo/Breakout wiggle going for the far hook (even though 95% of maps have minimum 2 easy hooks equally accessible from every corner now)? Do I use the hook closest to the exit gate, or save it in case they get downed within the gates?
For tunneling, it penalizes early kills because a tool is permanently lost. If I tunnel someone and put them on a Scourge hook, I lose one of my 4 valuable hooks to get my PR/Floods/GoP/etc. on. If I delete a hook, I give the remaining 3v1 the slightest bit of a better chance than a drawn-out loss for Survivor, that it basically is in any match with a Killer who has a modicum of skill, with more than 1 gen remaining.
For camping, I am forced to leave more than 2-square inches of the map (see Scourge hook overlap from above). I can't just merely stick to a 3-gen and hook everyone on the exact same hook, winning without putting forth the effort.
Hooks breaking on Kill is the equivalent of Pallets being dropped/broken for Survivor. You use a resource for a short term gain, but a long term consequence. Hopefully, that short term gain is more valuable than the consequences (otherwise it was a misplay, which should be punished/punishable). Should pallets auto-rebuild after 240s? I think that would be just as much of a mistake as the removal of hook 'death'.
Overall I think the benefit for baby and average Killers outweighs the good of keeping hook 'death', but I still think it is a mistake (on its own). Making both Survivor and Killer more accessible to more players does more long-term good, even if we have to make (taken on their own merit) bad decisions to accomplish that goal. Anyone whose stance is "don't remove high-end skill expression" should be opposed to this change, or that isn't truly their stance (they probably just want tribal changes for their side).
We have had to make a bunch of changes to deal with the repercussions of the Mikaela patch Hatch change. We had to implement 3-gen regression limits, and try to figure out how to have OTR and DS function as altered anti-tunnel deterrents, in order to fill the void that old Hatch left behind. We already had Hatch count as a tie, so even a 3 Hatch escape was a win for Killer (Win/Tie/Tie/Tie). It was anticlimactic, so it didn't feel good (so Killer is naturally disincentivized to tunnel).
I had the foresight to see the Hatch change was bad, but I'm not entirely sure about hook 'death' removal. It could go either way, that's why I'm not rallying to defend it beyond answering people asking things like "why was it a thing in the first place". I'm just afraid this could be a Chesterton's Fence issue, and we should only remove it if we are sure of the consequences.
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Agreed, it should be 180 seconds like Breakdown. This way the killer has to take into consideration what hooks they are using and do a little resource management. 60 seconds base is too short of an amount of time. Have Hangmans Trick shorten the time like it used to for the killers than find 180 seconds to be too long.
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why is killer slugging bad design?
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It's not. I wasn't implying slugging is bad design, I was implying having dead zones where it's physically impossible to hook with zero input from the survivors is bad design. Slugging is fine.
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why
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Survivors can decide which Gen they want to try to complete, the killer cannot decide where to hook a survivor that went down at a certain place... It is not fully comparable.
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Might as well bleed the survivor out for the remaining minute as well if it is that long..
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Killer has literally no control over where survivor dies, survivor has 100% control over where they dies, there is no way killers "manage" hooks
Literally every survivors can go to the corner of the map, and waste killer time as much as possible, without any counter at all
It's fundamentally different from pallets or anything because, just like every aspect of dbd, SURVIVORS have complete control over it
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Damn how fast you killing survivors to still give yourself a dead zone at that point
You slug for a 4K or what
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What does that even mean? If I have bad map rng there is an area with exactly 1 hook, if that person dies there then I cannot hook someone who goes down there for 3 minutes, in that case the bleed out timer is probably at least half done until I can hook them again, at which point they are either picked up, still there or crawled god knows where 3 minutes is just way too long...
Only for adepts or tome quests otherwise I don't care about hatch.
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Nah. Setting it at 180 sec would somewhat defeat the purpose of the change. It's not rare to down 2-3 survivors in a corner of the map. If the respawn time was 180 sec, that would be most of the bleed out time.
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I wonder when survivor will be able to respawn pallets in dead-zones. regenerating hook might end up showing up with regenerating pallets.
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Don't give them ideas, that would be crazy.
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I would agree with the idea that hooks don't break at all.
But at the same time make that the killer close to hooks have their power completely deactivated.
Projectiles from Huntress or Tricktster won't hit either.
Then this senseless, unhealthy proxy camping will finally stop. When the endgame starts, this function should deactivate like the anticamp.0 -
i'll play billy. Now survivors will claim that I am "Global proxy camping". What is the next measure? /shrug
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on2 -
I have games (rare, because I play smart when I used my hooks location effectively but.....) in which the maps like for example, the alien map; have my hooks far from the exit door (at most 1 to two closest hooks near the exit gate doors) and the last down Survivors is literally at the one exit gates next to the only two hooks that I already hook kill Survivors at.. so no matter what, I am in a pickle in which I cannot risk them struggling out and getting a free escape. In most maps, the hook spawn can be forgiving and I can at least make it to other hooks without worrying about any Survivor struggling out in time, especially if I am running Agitation and maybe iron grasp. But in other maps, you can have quite a few dead zone with barely any hooks spawns and run the risk of breaking them when killing Survivors. It is while I tend to lean towards getting basement hooks when it is close range, over any few meter of a hooks.
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Nah, it's easily one of the most unfun things to play against. Breakdown needs a total rework honestly. All it does is force slugging which isn't fun for either side.
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Not all skill expression should exist, hooks breaking on death is one of them
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then stop killers from purposely creating dead-zones with pallet breaks and camping hooks within a deadzone.
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Creating unsafe areas of the map and corralling survivors toward them is a huge part of the skill cap of playing killer. You want infinite safe zones? You gonna megabuff low tier killers to compensate? Cuz that's the only thing they have going for them, assuming they can even afford the time investment.
Precisely four hooks can ever permanently break in a match. Only one or two of those actually matter. Earning a hook requires the killer to outplay the survivor at least twice, then the time investment is hauling them over there. Pallets are a map resource designed to thwart killers in chase. They could not be more different.
The respawning pallet thing is never going to happen. It has a huge knock-on balancing effect on the whole game. Respawning hooks is only gonna be impactful every few dozen games. It's such a rare occurrence that you don't have a hook that is basically quality of life.
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you can argue that dying with survivor can be skill for survivor for a future teammate to utilize against the killer. hook respawning has huge knock-off effect for how killer hooks survivors. This creates incentive for killer to purposely break pallets, create dead-zone and purposely hook survivor into hook dead-zones to camp.
Good killer already do that. They specific pick hooks that are good for camping and break all pallets to minimize chase time. Examples are Ormond, They added new top hook on the building. Guess what most killers do with this? Break pallet → Hook survivor on top. Eyrie of crows, Top hook building, break all pallets. Camp hook at the top. Temple of purgation, Hook-survivor in the temple, Camp hook. Father chapel. Break all pallets on top-side. Hook survivor on furthered top hook. Crotus Asylum. Take bottom area. Break all the pallet. Hook them on further hook in the corner map. Growning storehouse, Pick one the corner sides of the map, Hook them on corner side. There is just countless examples of purposely breaking all pallets →hooking survivor on a hook near a dead-zone.
Hook regenerating encourages killer to do this gameplay because… well there is no risk to doing so. Survivor dies on the hook. the hook respawn's. Pallet respawning is not that far off from hook respawning.
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Ok. Pallets are resources to be used in chase. Hooks are how the killer progresses the game. I don't know a simpler way to break this down. They are not analogous. If you're trying to take away the killer's ability to create deadzones then you have to give them something else, because that's a huge part of their gameplay.
If the hook on a dead zone would break, you're down to a 3v1 and you've very likely lost regardless of whether or not it's in a dead zone. It's not anywhere as consequential near as giving survivors infinite map resources.
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if a hook is broken and survivor goes to deadzone with no hooks, you can't progress your objective. that is not exactly losing.
I don't know a simpler way to break this down. They are not analogous.
No pallets on the map is as good as being dead. You have to be insanely bad as killer to not be downing survivors 0 resources. Even if you are that bad, Bloodlust will carry you.
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Naw, straight up the Hook Respawn needs to be scrapped. I'm a Killer Main and as a killer main, the only time wiggling actually works for the survivor is if I can't get to a hook in time. If hooks respawn, this will never happen and wiggling will be a non-feature. There will be no level of strategy involved for me as a killer if it's assured that if I pick someone up, I WILL get them on a hook.
Sure survivors could still use Flashlights or MAYBE Pallets, but.. what's the point of the wiggle if it will literally never work now as opposed to "Maybe during the late game" ?0
