How has SM not been nerfed yet?
There's no need to list the reasons why it's op, it's been done already. SM is sitting at a 70% kr and is terrible to play against. In other games something so op would be hotfixed within 48 hours. How can the devs be fine with this?
Comments
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Skull Merchant?
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She doesnt need a nerf, she needs a completely change of power
Instead of pressing m2 to release a drone and scan the area, how about m2 to throw a mechanical piece of something on the survivor, and now they become the "drone"? Any other teammates around the survivor suffers from effects of the previous drones (hinder, exhaustion, oblivious, etc) until the survivor removes the part attached to them
Just some random ideas to make SM a killer with a little degree of mastering
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I understand what you mean, but do you know how annoying this is for new players? Hell, even some experienced players who can't always read the patch notes.
I still have no clue what Sadako's power does, why is a bar not filled in, why is a bar filled in. Just nerf or tweak the power, reworks are exhausting to deal with.
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She is a mid-tier killer not very strong. Most killers have 60% kill rate and Skullie where people don't want to play against her 70% is pretty low. In games where survivors try to win she is not going to have a higher kill rate than other mid tier killers. Why would you think she is op nothing is pointing that way.
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I feel like a broken record…It’s exhausting… She’s not OP, she doesn’t need a nerf, she needs a dework to her OG state, 70% of kill rate are hook suicides.
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I agree it’s exhausting. They need to STOP completely reworking characters. Just make changes of their original design. If it’s not duable than we make adjustments as needed.
Sadako 1.0 needed to stay as 1.0 with the buffs she has today and any other adjustments if needed to boost her based of performance.
Skull Merchant now that 3gens has been fixed she didn’t need this change. Revert her.4 -
The devs are probably fine with it because the 70% kill rate likely has very little to do with her being OP and is mainly a result of people suiciding on hook
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Imagine being a dev and being "ok" with a character consistently defeats 70% of the opponents and the opponents are always giving up because it is so unfair and unfun.
I agree with OP that the dev priorities are very disorganized and lack empathy.
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There actually is a need to list the reasons, when you recognize survivors give up without knowing the BASICS of how she works. People aren't trying, they are refusing to adapt and are instead hoping the game will change to their every whim. Learn what she does and what to do about it.
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Another of these posts it's tiresome. %70 kill rate because survivors are choosing to quit out of matches because they refuse to learn how to play against her like entitled idiots then it dooms the rest of the team to die. She's mid tier at best if people learned and adapt how to deal with she would be about %60. I don't even have issues with her.
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It's almost like we don't actually know how strong she really is because everyone lets themselves die on hook against her.
Good job you all played yourselves.
Maybe actually play against the character so we have more reliable data and then we can figure out if they actually need nerfs.
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Not only that, but let's say the devs changed her again. Are the people who are refusing to learn how to play against her suddenly going to start learning how to play against her? probably not. It just needs time similar to legion.
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Because she isn't overpowered. Her kill rates are high because people suicide on hook against her.
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Exactly! These people just want to not have to interact with anything that isn't exactly like every other killer.
There's a Sajam video about this. DbD fans are exactly like fighting game fans—They're still gonna get smoked by SM if she gets nerfed NOT because she's OP, but because they suck and have no idea what they're doing! Just learn the matchup.
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i think devs know survivors intentionally die on hook against her alot so they dont know what to do with her
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Looked at your post a 2nd time. Please go post the reasons you claim she's OP or are you just another mindless sheep with the rest of the herd that refuses to even try?
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They might not be fine with it, but they can't exactly change her if people just keep suiciding on hook. By inflating her kill rate this much, BHVR can't get accurate data and decide what ACTUALLY needs to be changed.
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We shouldn't take that kill rate as meaning she needs a nerf. I play a lot of SM and the amount of survivors that immediately give up as soon as they see me is astounding. So I see first hand a tremendous amount of data being skewed.
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How many people who hate SM actually took the time to learn what the Killer does and try to play against her before solidifying their opinion on her?
How many players already feel like the match will be a boring one when they hear SM's Tr at the start of the game even before the SM has demonstrated their playstyle?
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Probably an issue of resources and existing plans already using those resources more than anything else. They've been changing a lot of other killers recently. Same reason nurse still hasn't gotten a substantial rework. I'd imagine SM will be changed sooner rather than later and would bet money that it happens before the year is over. Problematic things ALWAYS eventually get changed in this game. Even Blight just got a substantial nerf despite people saying it would never happen (could still be reverted but who knows).
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I can tell for sure the majority of players already know how to play against her
we just decide not to
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Had my first match against SM, they put on a Terrormisu but honestly I and 2 others just k0'd ourselves instantly. Not even bonus bpts gets me to play against her
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I guess they gave up.
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I have had some of the best games recently as SM. The survivor group played the game and 4 man out for the majority of games. They played the same way I am use to see with the efficiency on gens and showcased the limits of m1 killers.
I will say SM is just highly effective against lower skill survivors.
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Okay so let me clarify some things that need it the most. 70% kill rate means the killer is mostly dominating lobbies over and over again. It's been 2 months give or take since OP made the post. Fun fact, that didn't change anything at all. And pray tell me where the devs were when she had a 10% hindered when you were deep wounded because you can't play a loop against her for that very reason, which in terms forces you to go to a different tile overall, and let me tell you most maps have 8 useful tiles at tops, some of which are weaker some of which are stronger. The excuse I see here is the "suicide on hooks" which shouldn't be used just because of simply hating her. I see the problem somewhat in her power and not giving her the right treatment. She was somewhat unjustly reworked into this mess, which I see was being pointless, because no matter how I look at it locking down 6 potentially completly seperate areas in 10m radiuses are just overkill, along with the pointless buffs she gets from the drones (haste & undetectable). Either one would be fine but the two together is just overkill.
I would go ahead and say my opinion of how I think she should be combined into the two versions of her taking away some of the parts that created this mess.
- Revert her drones to gives certain effects upon being in their radius for set period of time (this way survivors are not as harshly punished as they were with her original design and the current one).
- Remove one of the effects (either one is fine as long as it's done properly)
- Claw traps should function as a sort of buff to the drone's effect not as a secondary power basically. (Can't take fast vaults, get incapacitated for a short time [don't make eruption v2], slower action speed, next instance of damage within claw trap's lifetime is a deepwound, etc.)
- Hacking a drone shouldn't just render them inactive it should require some sort of action from the killer to turn them back on [possibly even remotely after some time (10-15 seconds)] in which case they get a grace period)
- Keep the LOS requirement (I think that was a problem with the original version but not sure)
- The number can be kept 6 and I think it should be although I would lower the radius to 8 or let her have 3 with 12-14 meters. I think the current numbers feel a little overtuned, especially with her monitor. Also I would give back the eye to survivors with an active trap because it was a unique visual, and actually gave them a sense of uncertainty in some cases.
This is MY version of "Skull Merchant 3.0" where I combined her current and older design in a sensible way so it's not as oppressive as it is currently, but not as useless as it was before with the 3 drone. I think this way skull merchant players won't lose their mind, and survivors can breathe a sigh of relief and not neccessarily have to die of boredom facing her.
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I'll just leave here for all those people saying she's fine. How about we give all other killers free haste, free slowdown and all the other status effects she can give BASEKIT? Yeah, not gonna happen. She can INSTANTLY place traps, doesn't need to rearm them and can recall them. How about trapper and other setup killers get this too? yeah game would definitely not be fun anymore. She needs a change.
Post edited by Salinero on3 -
She doesn't need nerfs, she's not too strong. What she needs is a rework to make her more healthy design. The vast majority of all the suggestions I see are just to nerf her, not make her more healthy. Focusing on her kill rates as a point for needing a nerf is flawed. I did 100 matches on SM and had a whopping 67% (DC or removing themselves from the game) rage quit rate within the first 30 seconds of the match. So not based on my play style, perks or anything other than the fact of being SM. So those kill rates are ridiculously skewed and inaccurate.
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I actually watched that video the other day, because I see it pop up around here in discussions like these every now and again.
I expected a lot more. This video's core assertion, the statement that everything else rests on, is that Skull Merchant has no counterplay in chase. Not that her counterplay isn't accessible or potent enough - they even highlight some killers they feel have inadequate counterplay but that said counterplay still exists, unlike (to them) with Skull Merchant - but that she doesn't have any at all outside of holding W. This is a statement they repeat multiple times, making it very clear that they mean it literally, not as hyperbole.
I don't mean too much shade to this youtuber in particular, but that's an immediately disqualifying statement. If you're not willing to acknowledge basic facts about the killer, like that their counterplay exists, you surely can't expect to be taken seriously in the debate.
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Well, the guy is incorrect and ignoring context quite often in that video.
I have seen it before, I have seen people trying to use it as argument, because they lack their own and it's still incorrect anyway.
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She's just annoying not strong there's a difference between the 2 , I can run a merchant the entire game and make her life miserable if she chooses to chase for that long but the thing is they never do commit to chases because the way her power works encourages a boring style of play that neither side really enjoys aside from the avid merchant mains that feel like she's fun but hey whatever floats their boat I guess, not my problem.
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Literally every post mentions hookocides like that some how is a excuse and not a glaring issue to how the community feels about SM. The question isn't if she's OP or not but clearly no one wants a match with her that's more a reason for change then anything regardless of how rare it is to play vs SM me and many others are just not going to bother
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I consider it irrational tho.
There doesn't exist a reason why you would hate her so much that is unique for her.
No matter what you say is bad about her, I can find a killer than is exactly same in that aspect.
She is way more manageable for survivors compare to first version in my opinion.
I don't really consider her a threat when we play against her. Simply because I wouldn't allow anyone in my group DC regularly.
If you don't have an issue with her stealth, there is not much she has going on.
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Why are SM mains so desperate to not be hated? Serious question I never see nurse or blight mains begging people to like that or to claim they are not that hard to play vs? It's always a SM main who create theses threads basically shilling that every killer under the moon is worse then SM it's actually pretty funny
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To actually explain that for you, it isn't that "SM mains" (which I'm not, for the record, I play her occasionally) don't want to be hated, it's that the things people say about SM are often just flat out not true.
It's not shilling or begging or propagandising, it's just disagreeing with statements that are - at best - extremely debatable.
Say what you will about the threads about Nurse or Blight or whoever, they usually aren't as flat out wrong as SM threads are.
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There are many reasons
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What's wrong in this thread? She's gives more status effects then any killers traps used easier then hag trapper or Freddy, she has 115% speed despite reliable stealth unlike other stealthy killers. I don't see anything flat out wrong with most people's complaints if you wouldn't mind sharing why you think everyone here is wrong I would be interested in seeing why a video was posted in this thread with even more complaints
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Wraith and Ghostface are both 115%. Onyro is also 115% although she does have a lullaby.
So I'm not sure where this idea that stealth killers are not 115% is coming from.
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Well, for starters, even you're kind of drifting into some questionable territory. Why highlight her 115% speed specifically when comparing her to other stealth killers? They're all 115% to my recollection.
As for some of the other stuff- saying that she gives more status effects than any other killer traps isn't wrong, but it's important to remember that two of the three trap killers we have suck. Trapper is not a good benchmark for balance, so to say her traps do more is kind of irrelevant. Of course they do, Trapper sucks. The same goes for Freddy, and while Hag is a closer comparison, it's worth remembering that Hag's traps are much more guaranteed. You can crouch them like Merchant's drones, but if you trigger them, it's a much more directly-threatening effect than a single Merchant scan. Merchant has to build up to her best case scenario, other trap killers get theirs on a single trap activation, and it's harder to see a Hag trap than it is a Merchant beam.
I'm not going to go through everything in this thread, but to stick to the thing I responded to - as I said in that comment, that video is just flat out wrong. It pretends that Merchant has no counterplay in chase at all- and very specifically brings up killers that have weak or inaccessible counterplay as a contrast, so it's not hyperbole, it's just wrong.
The things people say about Merchant are in similar lines. Saying she has no counterplay, she has no skill expression, she has more effects than other killers… these things just aren't true. That's not to say there's no conversation to be had about her balance, but the starting point for a lot of people's arguments is just wildly off base.
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This is a very random thought but I wonder if Japan D/Cs against Merchant like the west does or if they actually figured her out.
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So basically Chucky and Myers come to mind as for move speed could be more I don't have all numbers off the top of my head. Using the excuse that other trap killers are bad so you can't compare them is dismissing a good argument other trap killers exist so a base line exists as well if SM over preforms that baseline that is a problem.
I would be interested in what your idea for counter play is for SM that is reliable for more the extending chase by holding W into the edge of map.. stacks can't be removed giving her potentially permanent haste unless you take a hit which isn't counter play. In my opinion counter player implies it isn't beneficial to the killer like disabling trappers traps or hags marks with a flash light.
The issue is SM gets to much value out of to little you can argue SM is a worse killer then Nurse for example but that brand new player loading into a match as nurse for the first time is going to hate it opposed to loading into that same first match as SM I think it's easy for people to think a "bandwagon" of hate is happening here and not being on it helps us feel we are not one of the crowd or that we think the masses are stupid so they must be wrong in some capacity this isn't the case here.. yes people blow the issues out of proportion but the wagon started for a reason SM is a problem not game breaking but enough that people just refuse to play vs her as they value there time and expect a game should be fun.
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Myers moves at normal speed outside of tier 1, and tier 1 is also really weak, by design. He's not supposed to be operating at the normal baseline in tier 1, he's supposed to be operating at below the baseline.
It's actually not dismissing anything, if our baseline is considered to be the weakest killer in the game then performing above that baseline is not indicative of a problem. We WANT killers to perform above the baseline set by Trapper and Freddy, because they're very bad killers. We want those killers to be performing above the place they currently are, even.
When it comes to your comments about her counterplay, we have another misconception… I think? You say that stacks can't be removed, giving her "potentially permanent Haste", but I'm not sure what that means? She doesn't get Haste just for someone having a scan, she gets Haste for someone being on her radar, and that happens for 12 seconds after someone's scanned, it's not permanent.
Moving on, we'll talk about her actual counterplay. The problem is that you're thinking about her counterplay being something you do AFTER you get scanned, but her counterplay is in avoiding that scan to begin with. Beams need line of sight - though it is pretty lenient and can go through small gaps - and they don't scan you if you're crouching or standing still. That's her counterplay, you play around the beams and you avoid being scanned in the first place. It's very doable, especially if the Merchant isn't really trying very hard.
To your final paragraph, you're right that the bandwagon started for a reason. The issue is, that reason doesn't exist anymore. It started because of her original design allowing for extremely stalled out matches that could potentially go until the server force-closes. She can't do that anymore. They fixed her, and people are still acting like she's broken.
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If I cared I wouldn't be playing her. I don't really consider myself Skull merchant main anyway, I play quite a lot of killers.
It just doesn't make sense to me. That's all.
I can understand hate for Blight, or Nurse. They are strong killers and players don't like to lose.
I can't say same for Skully.
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Like what?
Hold W? Artist, Knight, Pig, Trapper, Deathslinger and so many others
Predrop pallet? Chucky, Clown, Pig, Vecna
Stealth? Ghostface, Wraith and several perks
Injured by power? Trapper, Plague
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"No matter what you say is bad about her, I can find a killer than is exactly same in that aspect."
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Yeah and I did.
But maybe you hate some super unique aspect about her that is going to prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
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Nah, why should I prove you wrong? Are you a dev at BHVR?
Otherwise theres no point
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So your claim is that her counter play is avoid the beams which can be dropped instantly and when ever? Even during a chase? That isn't counter play that's just running in a direction. I can hop in a locker when nurse teleports to me or artist hits me with some crows. I can dodge a billys charge. Many other killers have many unique things you can do. SM does not. And the scans are fundamentally a issue as some one across the map can negatively effect your chase by giving her haste how is that fair or even make sense? She's highly problematic and as it's always ignored the player base just leaves or suicides upon seeing her. That isn't healthy for the game and it's not just children complaining or lashing out it happens enough that it is a systematic issue as it's so wide spread claiming it's just people on the forums uniting to troll isn't it. Honestly I think SM should be removed and replaced with a different kit and model and name to give this sad excuse of a killer a new start
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Yes?
The beams operate on line of sight and don't scan you when you're crouching or standing still. They also spawn in a very predictable position - they're always facing directly forward from where Skull Merchant was facing when the drone was placed - and they rotate in the same direction, at the same speed, every time.
You can absolutely dodge the beams. It isn't just running away, it's specifically a timing-and-positioning based dodging game, just like a bunch of other killers.
People don't "unite to troll". People refuse to understand how she works, and act like there's nothing to be done because her power is uncounterable and uninteractive when that's provably untrue.
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Then I don't see why even try to write anything on forum.
Why response to the post? It wasn't made by dev.
Why give any response in first place?
So just another thing that doesn't make sense...
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