Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Do people actually think Survivor has no big issues?
Personally I've been opening this forum less and less because it feels so killer sided to the point where no one can voice survivor related problems anymore.
Seems like unless a post is sanitized to be killer friendly the same people jump in to 'debunk' it.
It's gotten to the point where it just feels like a giant on-going circular argument and it's gotten so predictable you can basically tell what someone is going to post just by reading the name.
Comments
-
Topics around survivor issues do tend to get derailed. You basically get told to stop complaining. I don't really share my thoughts anymore, I don't see the point. I've noticed alot of other familiar survivor mains don't post much anymore either.
22 -
They has big issue, but it's quite obvious they have far less issues than any time at the past
Also this kind of useless us vs them pops up every now and then from either side, so I wouldn't really call this forum whatever sided
17 -
Of course there are big issues on the survivor side. Anyone who denies that is wrong and obviously hasn't played much survivor. The same is true for those who think killer has no big issues.
Both sides have major issues that need to be addressed however these forums have the habit of feeling like every single change on one side needs to have an equal, or often larger, change on the other side to 'balance it out' or bring up how there side is worse and needs changes first before the other side is improved.
Anytime you bring up tunnelling you are met with complaints of gen rushing and SWFs. Anytime you mention gen speeds you are met with complaints about slowdown and tunnelling. MfT complaints were brushed off because 'killers get broken perks so why can't we?' and Eruption was brushed off because "you guys just had Dead Hard! Let us have a broken perk!"
Both sides have problems and both sides should be addressed. However so many people just see it from one side and think that every change needs some sort of 'eye for an eye' change to the other side.
"You guys can nerf X, but only if Y is nerfed".
"Y is a problem… but so is X! Let's derail the thread into a talk about X!"
I honestly don't believe these forums are killer OR survivor sided, I see an equal amount of complaints, derails, and whataboutism on both sides, however it is very obvious that the majority of people here only play one side and forget that the other sides fun matters too. Both sides here are just as obnoxious and dismissive of the other side.
Every adjustment doesn't need an equivalent one on the other side. Just because one side has issues doesn't mean the other is good. If something needs to be changed, then it should be changed regardless of if that same side just got another QoL improvement.
20 -
You can always tell there will be a drawing in the post just by reading my name.
15 -
I don't think it's always, most of time sure
1 -
It could be knee jerk inertia for some. For most of it's lifespan DbD was leaning survivor sided and now it's leaning Killer sided. There doesn't seem to be wide spread recognition of that on the forums and people tend to knee jerk reactions (instead of realizing that this is the best it has been for Killers overall and that puts a greater weight on dealing with issues for survivors that are caused by Killers).
Some of it, as well, is people not accepting that more than one thing can need changing at the same time and that it is possible for both roles to have issues that need fixing at the same time.
4 -
I'll add to this statement and say I prefer the official forum over things like the Steam Discussion or the Reddit page because both of those have FAR more people who are willing to single out the other side. I've had legitimately good debates on this discussion board compared to the others. Of course there will be those who downplay the survivor issues or downplay specific killer issues, but in my experience it has been more civil here.
8 -
"best" is overstatement, it's obviously better than past, but it will be same for survivors
Game has become fair, not exactly "leaning killer side" nowadays
7 -
I can agree with that. If you want to discuss something, this is without a doubt the best place to do so. And the mods have done a pretty good job so far in keeping toxicity in check.
The DbD Reddit doesn't seem to have much discussion outside of patch notes and dev updates. The 'discussions' there are mostly Us vs Them posts disguised as memes, and whichever side doesn't go along with the meme is downvoted to oblivion.
Steam Discussion is insane. It's just a toxic cesspool full of the worst takes imaginable. It's everything bad about the forums amplified by a million with none of the good aspects of it.
10 -
just look at the shards
0 -
Do you feel survivor has a ton of issues that need addressing but aren’t? I mean survivor basically just has the tunneling issue and matchmaking problems. Bad matchmaking is a current necessary evil as it covers up the games balance problems. Both sides have tons of bad perks. So really tunneling is about it.
9 -
My viewpoint have almost never been change reading a Steam Reddit or Twitter post. On the other hand plenty of dbd forum users have change my viewpoint. On steam especially conversations seem to devolve into one side saying git gud or name calling.
6 -
I've started lots of different discussions posts and I do see what you mean. Mostly about things that feel very hypocritical. I'm happy to say most of the time the conversations are very civil, though you will of course always run into some, "skill issue, git gud" comments on either side. But in my experience from posting quite a few discussions, there are more biased opinions leaning more towards one way. I don't think that means that there are necessarily more, as with the shift in the game in making killer the power role and making survival a 40%, more and more survivors have stopped playing so I don't think you see them on the forums as much.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I do think the killer should be in the power role. I wouldn't mind maybe a small percentage more of a possible chance of survival, as right now I feel the game is very punishing for the survivor role, you're expected to play without making mistakes and there's so many different killers to learn with different counters without any kind of tutorial or advice given. But I have to admit it feels good to play killer right now, much more than it used to. Idk I have a super hot take in my head but I don't think it's the time or place to share it, especially cause I don't want to offend anyone.
But yeah, I get what you mean.
4 -
Reddit dose not have this discussions because they are prohibited by the subreddit rules. every discussion will be closed in no time by the dbd subreddit mods even if people discuss things in a civilized manner.
on the topic itself. the error lies with BHVR and the decision that the kill rate for killers should be 60%. This leads to several problems.
- Since the 60% kill rate is a mixture of low and high MMR, the killers have to be strong enough to offer sufficient performance even at high MMR. As a result, many killers are overbuffed in their 1vs1 performance. this makes the killer very oppressive for the survivor. New killers in particular seem to get a package of antiloop, map pressure and information instead of focusing on one part. that hurts especially soloQ because the meta play is very limited for them.
- An often overlooked point is the 60% kill rate, which means that more than half of the survivor team dies on average in a match. On the one hand, this means that the killer's MMR increases on average and killers quickly reach MMR areas where they often lose due to a lack of experience. On the other hand, it is more likely for a survivor to lose MMR in an average match, which in turn means that in future matches he gets worse team members who do not match his skill level. For soloQ, this means a constant downward spiral for the MMR. both lead to frustration on both sides.
Personally, I would like to address the following points where I believe the developers failed:
- In the game there is no steering effect by positive incentives to play as "fairly" as possible.
- There is no possibility for survivors to make a comeback after the first survivor has been sacrificed. Any comeback is merely a mistake on the part of the killer. why can't survivors revive other survivors? that would give survivors a second goal outside of generators.
- There is no reputation in the game outside of the Steam profiles, which were not created to serve as an indicator for Dead by Daylight players.
- the response to problems is incredibly slow. Even game-breaking problems take weeks to be resolved.
Finally, a picture that shows my current soloQ experience very well. taken in the last match before I visited the forum. Broken hooks are 99% not what leads to bleedout.
5 -
The game was ridiculously survivor sided in the past but to the devs credit they have done a huge amount to correct that imbalance.
The thing is though, the game is asymmetrical so it will ALWAYS be imbalanced to one side or another and it will always need corrections as new metas arise and new perks/killers/maps get added that have unexpected consequences.
As a survivor main I am okay with the current state
10 -
But then "tunneling" is only a problem in a community, this is quite obvious BHVR is trying to design the game with tunneling aspect at the very least
It's not too hard to remove it altogether anyway
2 -
Yeah Steam is the worst. You need a hazmat suit to shift through that much toxicity.
1 -
You couldn't have said it better. Both sides have issues. I wish people would learn to see the game from both sides, and i always encourage people to play both sides to understand how they work and what problems there might be.
1 -
Haven't been here as long, but I've read and learned a lot in these forums, and one consistent issue I see is when a "Main" talks about an issue, there is a tendency to not acknowledge or account for the other sides perspective. One of the other things I like about this forum is there is much less tolerance for us vs. them argumentation.
Whether the point is valid or not, the lack of a balanced perspective puts immediate holes in an argument, and what I like about this forum is people check you often. If you can't provide a balanced perspective, that's when the argument gets shut down.
I've a few times argued a point myself, and those checks have often fed me new information that has meant I need to revise my perspective, or in some cases completely change it.
A valid issue I see with exploring issues for survivor, is a lot of survivor discussions look at the worst case scenario for survivor against the strongest killers, without looking at the ripple effect it has on weaker killers...but vice versa, the issue of weaker killers do hold back improvements for Survivor.
The Ultimate Weapon and MFT debates were for their respective sides, and are great examples where defenders of those perks would not acknowledge the gulf in effect where stronger killers got stronger and weaker killers got weaker. The DS buff is another great example, 5s is kinda needed on Nurse/Blight/Wesker/Spirit... but is far too oppressive for the likes of Trapper, Pig or Myers where it can be used to body block and bully them.
With this in mind, I don't think a post on survivor issues needs to be "Killer sanitizised", there is just a general demand here for stronger argumentation, and a greater consideration for the effects on the game as a whole, rather than hyper focusing on specific scenarios. This has happened for both sides in my time being here... and most people I talk to a generally reasonably receptive to opposing perspectives, even if the conclusion is we disagree.
3 -
Survivors in general? Not really, I don't have any issue when we play SWF, soloQ on other hand...
We just need soloQ focused changes. Show wiggle meter, show other survivor's perks in the game (not lobby), replace suicide on hook survivors with bot.
Some feature to let you die faster against bleed out could work too.
I don't think current balance killer vs survivor needs any basekit buff/nerfs. It's just QoL features for survivors, specific killer changes and perks.
5 -
From what Ive seen, it seems to be an issue for both sides. People who exclusively play a single side are more likely to dismiss concerns from others solely because the have not taken the time to experience what the opposing side is experiencing, nor do they want to.
There is also the other group of people that I tend to ignore, which is people who blatantly spread misinformation and/or intentionally ignore concerns from the other solely for the case of baiting reactions or rage/anger; which we have seen increase over the years on the Forums.
9 -
The only way BHVR will care is if survivors start quitting en masse and killer queues go up to 10 minutes. They've made it very clear they want the game to be ez mode for killers.
3 -
Disable suicide on hook. Replacing with bot would mean a survivor can attempt a 4% and if he fails, the team still has a bot.
5 -
Usually when people say "killer is ez mode" someone just asks them to play killer, pass the winnings of the baby pool and then see how easy they have it when they go against competent survivors.
For some reason, none of them came back with a winning streak.
9 -
The biggest problem with survivor is you feel like you're wasting your time. When you play killer you win more, get significantly more bloodpoints, and are generally in control of the match. If the event didn't highlight to Behavior how much more rewarding killer is then nothing ever will. If you made an actual attempt to fix these issues then I guarantee you giving up on the hook would be greatly reduced.
12 -
- just look at this post... we talk about "survivor problems"... the discussion ended up that "even killers have problems". we can focus on survivors for a second in this forum, no one has ever said that everything is easy for killers, simply now we're talking about survivors🤣
8 -
There's still stuff like hard slugging. Killers can have a rough idea of what the survivors are gonna play like just checking their items, but survivors have no clue what they're gonna face until the killer's plan is already in motion.
The fact that you won't have the tools to counter a hard slug scenario if you don't bring a full anti-slug build to every single match in the off-chance that you face that one-match-every-4-days that has a killer dedicated to end the game by not hooking anyone and just bleeding them to death is ridiculous.
You won't know it's happening until the second slug, and by that point resetting would be a miracle. If one of the two remaining survivors gets into a chase, forget about the game progressing. You're gonna be playing catch up until the entire team inevitably bleeds out to death.
There's also NOED spawning next to hooks, making it impossible to make an end game save. Which sounds fair when there's still 4 players, but is kinda awful when there's only 2 or 3 remaining.
1 -
My killer que is already very long at daytime and increasingly more often at night as well.
2 -
Oh yeah the game is balanced around tunneling at the moment for sure. That's the thing, people just want tunneling removed, the end. What they don't realize is if it was removed completely it would come with significant killer buffs which I doubt any of them would be cool with.
2 -
These forums are neither killer nor Survivor sided, as whenever I made a post about Surge and Rapid not being M1 perks only I got ratioed into oblivion. Same with when I said Huntress should’ve kept her movement speed, ratioed into oblivion again.
These forums are definitely feeling more 50/50 to me than ever honestly. But the problem solo queue has is for some reason survivors don’t really like to do their objective, I’ve had literal 5 minute matches where by the time I got to my 4th or 5th down all the gens were popped. I don’t know why they don’t do that 24/7. Maybe because it’s boring? Idk.
4 -
I stopped playing survivor consistently a month or two after sm release. When I do play now, it's exclusively killer, though I pay the game far, far less than I used to.
I win the majority of my games. And most games aren't even close. That's been over a year, and the game balance has been steadily increasing killer kill rates over that time.
But I don't generally tunnel or camp. I want to have a fun game, and hopefully the survivors do too. I really on map pressure, game sense and game knowledge to play, and that gives me enough of a lead that I don't have to sweat. In games where I can usually tell it's solo q, I often have to back off and kick pallets or just watch them to allow a reset so they feel like they have a chance.
On the off chance that I do get a 'sweaty gen rushing SWF' ok then, I usually still win, but here's the most important part: I don't have a tantrum and cry about it when I lose a game every so often.
The game balance has been going steadily in a direction that is both causing more kills per game on average, and it's decidedly more competitive.
So I have basically no interest in playing survivor any time at all in the near future. Why would anyone want to play a role where the gameplay becomes less fun every patch in the name of 'balance' and it also simultaneously means you are dying more.
Survivor is already at a point where 'well, you're supposed to lose the game by design, but at least the gameplay is awful the whole time you're losing'.
12 -
Exactly. People don't understand that "remove killer's pressure from X" = put this pressure in faster chases. And with already more fair / overnerfed maps, "killer can't do this this and this" mechanics and stronger killers overall I can't imagine how we make chase even more shorter and not boring at all. Every chase will be Haddonfield chase or what? Distance shortening simulator?
1 -
First point. There was a topic a week or two ago claiming tunneling only happens around 8%. With average of 57% kill rate. By that tunneling stats claim, the game is not balancing around tunneling. Are we going to agree that tunneling rate is high then?
Second point. For me, Im not against killers' buffs. But if Devs give Huntress 7 iri hatchets basekit, that broken thing still not stop killers to tunneling survivor. It happened with buffed Eruption.
When there are buffs on survivors. Killers bring up scenarios that top MMR SWFs would make the perks combo broken. Same to killers' buff, still feel dirty with that Huntress buff patch because there are Huntress that still tunnel casual survivors.
9 -
A 4 man SWF at high MMRs has a 48% escape rate while the average survivor has a 40% escape rate. That's leaning Killer sided regardless if you want to see it or not. I'm not saying that's a bad thing as it's a horror game but there's no denying that's Killer sided.
6 -
OP is definitely not talking about any of the survivor problems, instead he is just throwing useless us vs them with glaring bias that doesn't help anything, what did you expect
The counter to hard slugging is literally just play good, and no it doesn't require 1k hour skills, just doing good enough in chases and not get down within 15 seconds, basically exactly same as things you do against hooking killers
Realistically speaking slugging has no real advantages over hooking (unless you are a soloq and killer got the knockout/third seal, obviously), if all survivors gets down at same time, it wouldn't really be that different even when killer hooks, knockout and third seal is the problem and slugging is not
NOED hook issue is something but literally just pure RNG which doesn't happen often too, I don't see much problem in killer securing a kill at endgame anyway, it is already doable without noed especially when there is only 2 or 3 remaining
8 -
game is heading to survivor sided
3 -
It's not about just removing tunneling; BHVR has demonstrated fully they're balancing off of Kill rates and the current goal favours Killer. I have no issue with that; it's about having fun while playing. Being in a game with tunneling doesn't make many players want to play DbD; it makes them want to play something else. It should be a given that if Killer rates drop below BHVR's goal Killers will get buffs. That's a good thing. What's not a good thing, however, is the gameplay being miserable enough for one side that it makes people play something else.
It's why I missed a week of the anniversary event. Tunneling was prevalent enough that I didn't want to play Survivor and, when playing Killer, I didn't have the heart to kill anyone since the survivors I faced probably experienced the same as me. So I didn't like Survivor play at all and couldn't bring myself to play Killer as intended so I just played Stellaris instead. That's not a good sign for a game.
If I recall correctly you liked my suggestion about how to deal with tunneling which was a general gen slowdown while all Survivors are alive and a substantial repair buff when a Survivor dies so the ideal strategy would be to get all Survivors on death hook first so tunneling gets disincentivized and Killers also don't see 2 or 3 gens pop by the end of the first chase as often. That wouldn't need substantial general buffs to any side as addressing the core game systems would eliminate the need. I'm sure BHVR could come up with something that addresses game mechanics as well.
4 -
"First point. There was a topic a week or two ago claiming tunneling only
happens around 8%. With average of 57% kill rate. By that tunneling
stats claim, the game is not balancing around tunneling. Are we going to
agree that tunneling rate is high then?"That was a reference to a different type of tunneling. I'm referencing games reaching a point where "someone needs to be removed" with how many gens are left. I think those are thought of differently, of which I am referencing the later. Unless we want to talk about tippy top high mmr matches of which it is balanced around tunneling of former, but that's not average or probably what you're referencing.
"Second point. For me, Im not against killers' buffs. But if Devs give
Huntress 7 iri hatchets basekit, that broken thing still not stop
killers to tunneling survivor. It happened with buffed Eruption."Can we really not be hyperbolic? We go from killer buffs to 7 Iri hatchets? Really?
Eruption was an unhealthy designed perk I would agree and over tuned. However, I would disagree on the tunneling point. During the "gen kick meta" tunneling was significantly lower in my opinion.
"When there are buffs on survivors. Killers bring up scenarios that top
MMR SWFs would make the perks combo broken. Same to killers' buff, still
feel dirty with that Huntress buff patch because there are Huntress
that still tunnel casual survivors."Is how it effects top mmr swf not a valid concern? This isn't just a top 1% thing either.
While a lot of other killers needed improvements before Huntress I really don't see any issue with the Huntress buffs. Huntress isn't even one of the killers I really play, so this is mainly from me playing against her. Even after her buffs she isn't over tuned or anything. She's still even generally ranked as one of the funnest killers to face.
2 -
1
-
Yeah, we know survivors have an issues. We always ask devs for soloQ improvements and balancing maps by removing deadzones
3 -
And also by fixing tunneling, camping and slugging
3 -
I mean yeah I want tunneling removed as well. I don't think the hard tunneling at like 4 or 5 gens is common at all though and most people vastly exaggerate scenarios as "tunneling" when it's not. I see it regularly said in my games even that I was "tunneling", when I don't tunnel at all. I intentionally go out of my way even not to tunnel.
There is different types of "tunneling" though, I use that term loosely here. Like when the killers getting down to 1 or 2 gens he needs to remove someone generally. I don't do this, but I could see someone calling this "tunneling". It's hard to have these conversations because everyone has different definitions of tunneling, we'd have to agree on definitions first for proper conversations probably.
I think some of the confusion I have with people in conversations here is me going back and forth between what I would consider tunneling and using tunneling in the sense of how many others would.
4 -
The point is, BHVR is obviously never seeing tunneling as a "miserable" or anything, and the chances are they aren't even thinking it is that common, results in literally no fix coming
The boringnes of tunneling has been stated repeatedly, even from killers too, but BHVR literally has no interest in ACTUALLY "fixing" this problem
2 -
This is a beautiful take that I can mirror myself. At DBD reddit, I only take short desaster tourism vacations, the DBD steam forums are just a no-go area for me, but the DBD forums? I feel right at home, here.
2 -
Killer is definitely not close to the hardest mode.
I would've agreed in 2020, but nowadays it's pretty much just as easy as SWF.
5 -
Which is unfortunate since both sides agree that the game would be better off if there wasn't tunneling.
5 -
I think BHVR has tried to address it with incentives and doesn't want tunneling around. Friends Till the End, BBQ, etc give very little value unless you take advantage of the information and target someone else. Most aura reading perks (with the notable exception of A Nurse's Calling from many years ago) don't help you unless you target someone else. The Emblem system had BP and pip rewards that were diminished by tunneling and camping and the monthly rewards continue that incentive.
I think the main issue is that it's hard and requires resources. For example, with my suggestion it's bare bones. How much should gens slow down or speed up by? There's no way to guess without extensive play testing and in the meantime BHVR is still a corporation and needs to allocate resources to guarantee it's profitability in order to survive. I don't think it has anything to do with frequency as tunneling is far more common than 4 person slugging for the win and BHVR attempted to address that, albeit unsuccessfully, with its Last One Standing idea which never made it off the ground (no pun intended). If 4 person slugging, which is much less common than tunneling, is obviously on BHVR's radar then tunneling, which is far more common and more complained about, probably is as well.
The issue is how. No amount of gen slowdowns or perk rewards will stop tunneling from being more prevalent the higher up the MMR ladder someone goes. The optimal tactic in any team based pvp game has always been to remove a player from the other side while keeping yours. Here, only one side can lose players so what's the correct amount of incentives and disincentives ? That needs resources to determine and that becomes a matter of priorities. Player loss due to tactics such as tunneling is hard to measure but I'm of the opinion that BHVR does know that getting rid of tunneling would improve player retention but they're just unsure how to deal with it.
1 -
Yeah, there's a bunch of kids on the forums who get offended if people are talking about any issues that don't affect them.
Most killer players on the forums are pretty reasonable. It just seems like the forum is killer sided, purely because these trash talking kids post whatever they want, get banned and create new accounts to keep running their mouths. They're not the majority, just loud with a fast respawn rate.
1 -
The derailing is the worst part for sure. The whataboutism on this forum is frustrating.
4 -
All those alts seems to pop for either side too, though
1