BHVR, Switch players bought DLC because you repeatedly stated it would transfer
For years, the Switch port and DLC were sold to Switch players with the promise that cross-progression is coming and will include the transfer of DLC. Some Switch players purchased the game and DLC because of that promise and would not have done so otherwise.
Cross-progression for Switch was announced back in July 2020. Stated here: "We are thrilled to announce that we are preparing the first steps toward Cross-Progression and that it will be available for Steam, Google Stadia and Nintendo Switch in September! Players will be able to share their progression, purchases, and inventory on those 3 platforms – Exceptions might have to be made to accommodate for some external licensing needs."
News from 2021 is still available online, both on the live site and on Archive.org and states: "your character progression, DLCs, and purchased or unlocked items will all be available to you." (The emphasis added is my own.)
The release of cross-progression for Switch was pushed back multiple times, but no update stating "DLC will not be included" has ever been made.
Questions about cross-progression were rarely answered, but when they were, the response was: "I'm sorry but there is no further update on Cross Progression at the present time." (quoted from Reddit 10 months ago). No updates. No changes.
BHVR has, for four years, claimed that Nintendo Switch players will get to keep their DLC. When they have given updates, they have not revised their statement.
Whether or not BHVR has any control over the change, it was BHVR who made statements about DLC transferring: BVHR has a responsibility to make sure information they share with customers is correct and to make things right for their customers when it is incorrect. If they made a promise they can't deliver on, that's on BHVR, they advertised this feature to their customers. As is, BHVR's statements about cross-progression misrepresented their capabilities and misrepresented the product they were selling.
Switch players gave money, time, and an unreasonable amount of patience as they dealt with the never ending performance issues. The number of customers who would not have purchased DbD on Switch if the cross-progression statement had not been made is high. Customers spent money based on faulty information. I did not purchase the chapters on Switch just to play half the chapter; killer has been unplayable for me, but even though I can only play half the game I still paid the same as everyone else.
The money spent by Switch players is just as important and holds the same value as the money spent by players on other platforms. For years, we have paid the same as everyone else (or more, when compared to PC) for an inferior product. Many of us did it because you, BHVR, made the statement that DLC would transfer to other platforms with cross-progression.
What is being done to make sure Switch players have access to the cross-progression function that encouraged them to purchase DLC for the platform with the worst performance? Because right now, we're being told we're not receiving the product for which we paid, and that's not acceptable.
Edit: The 2021 announcement about Switch cross-progression was changed and updated. The original version can be seen at Archive.org, plus I took a screencap:
Comments
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Honestly, this complain sounds completely fair to me given BHVRs statements in the past.
I get Nintendo might say No to the DLC Sharing but this feels like something BHVR should then make right themselves. Like…just unlock the Original Characters and give an "At Cost" discount to the DLC (I have no idea how much of the $4 per character goes to BHVR versus whoever owns the rights to the character. While it would be most right for them to just give everyone on Switch the characters on other devices, I can at least understand why they wouldn't just want to eat those costs).
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I would even say that as these are digital assets, a show of goodwill can be made (seeing as the person has already spent money on these and this can be verified), that for Switch players transferring who are losing their characters and DLC, they can get a token to download across accounts regardless of Nintendo.
or as you mentioned a discount - DBD players are usually very loyal - we are spending money on an 8 year old game anyway. Goodwill gestures will usually bring benefits in the long run.
I’m sure there are many nuances to this but honestly, loyalty in this case would be the best move.4 -
I feel your pain but this honestly makes complete sense. Nintendo 4 years ago didn't have a new console about to be announced.
There's no reason to risk losing a customer to a competitor if their next gen console is literally months away from being announced.
Most Nintendo players are loyal anyway for the exclusives (Mario, Zelda, DK, Pokémon) and didn't buy a Switch for DBD.
They want players to stay with Nintendo and my hope is that we will get an upgrade of the game the same way PS and XBOX players did.
I don't know if Bhvr would make a Switch 2 upgrade or not though and even if they were working on one, they would have an iron clad NDA not to tell us as Nintendo hasn't formally revealed the Switch successor.
I personally have decided to completely stop playing and purchasing DLC until an announcement from both companies are made.
After today's Livestream, where a developer stated despite their best efforts, 2v8 has performance issues on Switch, there is no other rational choice.
There's no point investing time and money in something that could be discontinued so near in the future.
It's not even beating around the bush that bhvr isn't going to be able to support the Switch port for much longer at this point and Switch has lost 2 live service games in the past year.
You can skip to 1:32:00 and see the devs talking about Switch performance today with the new mode:
https://www.youtube.com/live/QEe2ZZnKy08?si=IGaBYbuiLsg1V5BL
I do understand your frustration, I'm not thrilled as I've bought every dlc and $500 of auric cells but this is the reality.
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Good luck with the Switch 2 launch next year. You'll finally be able to play Dead by Daylight in 30 fps.
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I didn't watch the stream, is 2v8 not on switch?
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It is but they make a point to tell you what to expect from the performance. Just skip to the 1:32:00 time mark.
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If you watch from 1:32 it explains it briefly (so not a long watch) but the gist is: we made every best effort for 2 v 8 but on switch it is gonna suffer from framerates (most likely very badly if they mentioned it) and they have said they will include switch but it is up to players to decide whether to keep playing it (so, it’s gonna be awful, but you can play it - but don’t complain because we told you so)
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Thanks.
Honestly i didn't expect they would do that. Usually with switch ports if performance is too bad they won't release it at all because of quality and appearance and all that…
Though if you've heard about the mortal kombat 1 port for switch i guess devs don't really have… standards for switch ports anymore.2 -
yeah the standards are low and always have been. But when we’ve invested so much time and money it is just a very bitter pill to swallow.
I mean the rational part of me does understand and I bought a steam deck because it is the closest thing to switch handheld experience (whilst being FAR superior in visual and performance). I knew the time for switch was nigh and pre-emptively made the move. As @CountOfTheFog mentioned, we usually buy the switch for the Nintendo licence games and can understand and forgive the compromises in terms of graphics and performance etc of other games, however, the sheer investment (monetary and otherwise) makes the situation a very demoralising one.
It makes me sad more than anything but I hope there will be a positive solution for everyone - the problem is the switch playerbase (at least it feels so to me) is seen as ‘not worthy’ enough to have attention paid to it. But the fact is we spend money and love the game as much as anyone .
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This.
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Yeah I've been waiting for ages to get all my stuff from Switch, but part of me kind of anticipated this. It's never been easy for Switch players so I didn't expect this to be either.
Any chance a dev can confirm if cosmetics for DLC characters will transfer across? Or if that all falls under the DLC umbrella. Thanks!
Edit: also did they say how we can link our Switch accounts? Might have missed it
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Honestly, this complain sounds completely fair to me given BHVRs statements in the past.
Thank you!
this feels like something BHVR should then make right themselves
Exactly.
Great points and exactly the kind of thing I'm suggesting.
as these are digital assets
Yeah, since these are digital assets, there's no overhead cost for BHVR to eat in terms of physical resources. Giving away original non-licensed content is a conceptual loss, not a physical loss of money and product.
Since Stranger Things is back, I'm not even upset at the idea of licensed chapters needing to be repurchased. That was mentioned as a possibility in BHVR's very first cross-progression announcement. But original non-licensed chapters? Those are under BHVR's full control.
Yeah I've been waiting for ages to get all my stuff from Switch, but part of me kind of anticipated this.
I anticipated that no console DLC chapters would transfer, or at least no licensed DLC chapters. I did not expect that Switch, the only console that was promised to have its DLC transfer with cross-progression, would be the only platform to not get it at all.
Any chance a dev can confirm if cosmetics for DLC characters will transfer across?
I've asked in other threads if cosmetics transfer and if so which ones. One was even a direct response to a community manager. There's been no answer. If cosmetics don't transfer, then that's really bad. BHVR needs to be clearer on the specifics about cross-progression, because "shared DLC" is as ambiguous as they could possibly be.
I personally have decided to completely stop playing and purchasing DLC until an announcement from both companies are made.
I'm definitely not buying DLC on a platform that can't share it. My friend today went out for a PlayStation card so they could get Lara Croft. "Would you like me to pick you up a Switch card?" I very quickly responded "No."
(And then I told him about the cross-progression update, and he too is quite upset. He has, sitting next to me, watched me struggle through the low fps and all the other performance issues while I waited for cross-progression, and he feels bad it's gone this way. If we'd known, we may or may not have purchased DbD on a different platform, but we definitely would not have bought it on Switch. And that's why I'm livid, because BHVR went back on statements that greatly influenced people's purchases, and that's something companies aren't supposed to do.)
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TLDR about what the performance will look like:
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I'm not going to pretend I have nearly as big a stake in this matters as others, since realistically speaking the only thing I'd like to transfer from my Switch account are Stranger Things skins I bought before it left the stores a few years ago, but I agree that a show of goodwill from BHVR would go a long way here.
These are digital assets that have for the most part already made their money and earned their value in terms of cost, I think that despite BHVR's smaller status as a company, they could bite the bullet instead of punishing those who have invested so much money into the Switch port.
At the very least, Nintendo will probably allow Cross Progression between Switch 1 and whatever the successor is called. I wonder how long the Switch Port will last tbh, it's never been the best running or prettiest game, but 2v8 getting an active warning about its playability is a pretty big sign that it's on borrowed time.
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Its been on borrowed time for awhile now. That was just a dev acknowledging it (no offense).
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Fingers crossed we at least get our cosmetics. If they could throw us that bone it would hurt a bit less lol
"we'd known, we may or may not have purchased DbD on a different platform, but we
definitelywould not have bought it on Switch."The crazy thing for me is that I had the PS5 sitting there for ages while I played on Switch. I'd seen the updates about Switch cross progression, and that played into my decision to delay buying it on PS5. Really bummed I delayed and kept putting the money into Switch instead of just switching to PS5 immediately. Once I switched, I couldn't go back because the Switch performance is so poor in comparison. I said not long ago that this game wasn't made to be played on Switch in any capacity.
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the only thing I'd like to transfer from my Switch account are Stranger Things skins I bought before it left the stores a few years ago
I don't understand why BHVR is being so opaque about what exactly is transferring. There are so many different items that can be bought and earned in the game. DLC chapters purchased in the platform's store. DLC chapters purchased with auric cells. DLC chapters received via a giveaway code. Auric Cell-only cosmetics. Iri Shard cosmetics. Cosmetics that were purchased with Auric Cells but are available with Iri Shards. Cosmetics that were received via a giveaway code. The free Rift track. The paid Rift track. The Amazon Prime cosmetics. The free limited-time cosmetics given away with the purchase of Auric Cell packs. And do the limitations apply to all of that type of product or are some limitations only applied to licensed content?
We know nothing except that Switch players get both less than what was promised and less than every other platform.
These are digital assets that have for the most part already made their money and earned their value in terms of cost, I think that despite BHVR's smaller status as a company, they could bite the bullet instead of punishing those who have invested so much money into the Switch port.
Exactly.
that played into my decision to delay buying it on PS5. Really bummed I delayed and kept putting the money into Switch instead of just switching to PS5 immediately.
Yup, people made financial decisions based on information that BHVR made public and advertised. That's why I see it as a serious issue rather than just, "Man, this is disappointing."
I probably would've purchased the game on Steam or played it for free on Epic. I would've purchased the DLC on PC. And if I now for some masochistic need for self-flagellation decided to play it on Switch, all my PC purchases would transfer over, meaning I'd be both better off on PC and at the same place on Switch.
the Switch performance is so poor in comparison. I said not long ago that this game wasn't made to be played on Switch in any capacity.
I've said as much, too. The performance is unacceptable and the fact they felt comfortable selling it to customers for at least as much money as any other platform is mind-boggling. Now, Switch players suffered through the performance issues, paid for DLC that many of us couldn't fully utilize (I'm not the only one on Switch who can only play half the game because killer is unplayable), and are getting less for their money than everyone else. Players on other platform got a better product for the same amount of money, and now that money goes even further because their purchases transfer to other platforms. Including transferring to Switch. There are so many things wrong with how BHVR is handling this, with how they're treating their loyal Switch playerbase, that it's almost a struggle to comprehend it.
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None taken, I've heard people say it was on borrowed time since its release lmao
Hopefully the release on the successor Switch fairs better, if it really is on the level of the Xbox One/PS4 like sources indicate, it might get to stick around much longer.
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I really do hope this (and 2 Vs 8 mode) isn't a signal that BHVR are going to stop supporting the Switch soon. It will be quite a while before I upgrade to the new Nintendo console and doubt I'm alone in that respect. It probably wouldn't make great business sense to drop a huge install base for a what is likely to be a pretty small one (for at least a year or two, anyway).
While there are probably not that many Switch players left in the west, I bet it's a fairly popular platform in Japan where the Xbox may as well not exist and PC gaming isn't so popular.
Funny thing is, I'm not sure DBD should be having the terrible performance issues that it has on the Switch. Fortnite shares the same game engine, seems to be more demanding (at least to my layman's eyes) and yet is very well optimised for the console. But on my PC, DBD is flawless yet Fortnite ran so poorly I ended up uninstalling it.
I know BHVR doesn't exactly have the same resources as Epic, but surely the Switch version of the game can be improved beyond how it currently runs?
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yes I can absolutely vouch for your point about Japan where the Switch and generally all Nintendo consoles are pretty ubiquitous. I started playing DBD whilst I was in Japan
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BHVR really does not optimize their games. If I remember correctly, BHVR hires people without coding experience so they can teach them the BHVR way of coding in-house. I also don't think they go to professionals experienced with console ports to port their games over, meaning BHVR does it themselves and wings it, and we've experienced the results first-hand.
From what I know, DbD does not run well on PS4. I can play games that are much more demanding with no issues on my PS4 Pro, but I had to buy an external SSD for PS4 Pro to get DbD to run well. I'm pretty sure a big reason the game runs poorly is the visual effects. All that smoke, all the particle effects, I don't think BHVR bothers to keep those at a low res, even though they're unnecessary extraneous elements, and so the VFX cause my PS4's poor fans to go into louder-than-a-jetliner mode. That used to be a problem on the load-in screen before BHVR finally accepted that the uncapped loading screen fog was causing performance issues and they JPEG'd it. Another reason for the poor performance: There's a good chance BHVR is still using a lot of the code they started with, which means the game runs an enormous number of "if then" statements to determine what it should do, for example you press button "X" and now the game has to ask "Are you this killer? Are you this killer?" before getting to the right one and performing the correct action. The devs use better machinery to brute force the code, and performance degrades over time as the code becomes more monstrous with each update until once again better machinery is required simply because the game has grown larger even if the graphics and everything else remained the same.
I could be wrong, but this is the impression I've been given over the years of playing this game, reading the forums, seeing BHVR's job listings, etc. I'd love for anyone who knows differently to correct me if I am wrong, as I'm always interested in learning more, especially when it comes to why this game runs like hot garbage on many consoles when other games surpass it in graphics, performance, and number of players in a match on the same consoles.
While there are probably not that many Switch players left in the west
Amazingly, whenever DbD has had some Switch-specific problem and disabled Switch cross-play, I still got instant lobbies without repeat players. I'm on North American servers. I'm sometimes surprised by just how many other Switch players I see in my lobbies when cross-play is on.
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A bundle of iridescent shards and auric cells for Nintendo players transferring over would be a nice gesture for cross progression.
Though this has got me thinking, and not to deviate the thread too much, but it always baffles me how Nintendo seem to get this free ride comparing it to other platforms.
This thread has the same sort of disappointed acceptance of it from Nintendos side, and instead points the finger at BHVR quite heavily, and there is undoubted blame in that regard...
However the reality is likely to be very much that each of those announcementa went off of information that was available at the time, and it was expected to be able to implement that change... and it smells highly of Nintendo suddenly turning around and going "nah lol, we're not gonna allow that". Yet there is barely a bad word to be said about Ninendo's hand in all this.
I've seen them do it constantly with cease and desist orders, suing free fan made projects, gating their stuff being paywalls, attacking roms, locking literally everything they can to their own console and refused to budge on any customer beneficial features... and I don't really mind all of this... the game industry is insane.
What I do mind is how when either Sony or Microsoft do anything remotely resembling these things, there is an armada of backlash. Sony especially... Sony can literally foot the bill to fund a game development themselves like Bloodborne, and get slated for not making it available on other consoles... yet you turn to Nintendo and everyone is singing their praises despite gating literally every franchise they have on the Nintendo system....
You need a Sony account for Helldivers 2, since Sony published and funded development of the damned game? Games like Sea of Thieves needs a Microsoft account, noniaaue... pretty much any massive online game over the past 15 years requires registering with the publisher, but usually no one bats an eye....
Just confuses me so much why Nintendo pulls so much shady and anti-consumer crap... and no one seems to care and loves them anyway... where is the zealoted angry mob for Nintendo? 😅
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Did someone say optimization?
:)
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure all those little fire effects on the wreckage of Nostromo map are the reason why it's so painful to play on. It's the one map I never, ever want to be sent to on Switch. I honestly wouldn't mind if some of the fancier visual effects were disabled, if that's really the only way to improve performance for the platform and reach a stable 30 fps. I do think the game would really benefit if BHVR hired a studio that specialised in PC to console ports to look over their code, but it probably wouldn't be worth the investment at this point. In any case, there are some miraculous PC ports for the Switch so I'm sure the game could run better than it currently does.
I live in the UK, which I think has a relatively smaller pool of players compared to pretty much everywhere else. So it's a rare but exciting experience to encounter another Switch player in the wild. I see maybe 1 every couple of months.
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I'm not trying to condone anyone to do anything against this company but that's outright just not legal, BHVR really needs to address these people and fix this issue, from a legal standpoint they could absolutely be held liable for falsely advertising that for profits, they need to make this right and either give them a way to save their account or offer them a code for each chapter they already bought since they promised cross progression to them specifically to keep them buying and playing, it's only reasonable if they can't provide what they promised they compromise with the next best thing.
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I don't want to shift focus to this, but I'll give my viewpoint here. First off, I don't have access to the negotiations or contracts between Nintendo and BHVR. I don't know for a certainty who's responsible for what behind the scenes. I know who's responsible for making statements that directly influenced my financial decisions and caused me to buy a game and DLC I otherwise wouldn't have, and that's BHVR.
On Twitter, I see the opposite of what you're talking about in terms of Nintendo-fanboy-love and free passes, because everyone who is upset about cross-progression gets at least one response from someone saying "bruh, don't blame BHVR, this is Nintendo's fault." One party may be more responsible for this mess than the other, but it's still two parties involved, neither is without responsibility. BHVR made public statements advertising that Switch cross-progression would include purchases/DLC, that's a fact that I can point to with evidence. Deviating from it would mean basing my statements on conjecture.
And ultimately, this thread exists on BHVR's forums, so my statements are directed at BHVR.
Yup.
A while back I played Lords of the Fallen on PC. Beautiful game, absolutely beautiful. Had some performance issues, which they tirelessly worked on and I think managed to fix. I wasn't crazy about how they fixed them, though, because they actually removed assets from the levels in the lower graphical settings. I had to change the graphics setting to ultra to get the beautiful levels back, and of course that really noticeably hurt performance… I messed around a bit, and I found that when I turned the visual effects quality to "who cares about smoke lol" the game ran smooth: even with the ultra graphics setting and all those decorations and blades of grass that were deemed expendable the game ran smooth.
Long story short, visual effects are taxing. Any game with performance issues should be look at sledgehammering high quality VFX particle effect nonsense.
I agree so much with everything you said.
from a legal standpoint they could absolutely be held liable for falsely advertising that for profits
This is exactly how I see it, though I've avoided saying it outright on these forums because I'm not a lawyer and I don't want to cross a line. I've tried to get BHVR's attention on Twitter by using words with legal implications, but that's Twitter.
I really really wish I saw more people being irate about this. I've seen an irate Tweet get almost 100 likes but that's not individual voices being heard, it's not action, it might as well be a shrug of the shoulders for all it means. Anyone who bought Switch content under the belief that DLC would transfer should be upset and they should be loud about it.
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@TragicSolitude absolutely, all platforms should be stepping up for these people, I'm not a lawyer either but my work requires me to study areas of the law in depth to prevent my company from making mistakes that can lead to lawsuits, to be clear though I dont wish a lawsuit on this company I just hope they make it right because from the outside looking in I already see potential for this to come back on them in a bad way if they don't play their cards right on how they respond and resolve the matter.
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my work requires me to study areas of the law in depth to prevent my company from making mistakes that can lead to lawsuits
Oh, cool! It's great to get input from someone with experience in these matters. Thank you for sharing your knowledge :)
I already see potential for this to come back on them in a bad way if they don't play their cards right on how they respond and resolve the matter.
Yeah, a lot of people are minimizing this, and I think a misconception held by players on other platforms and even possibly BHVR themselves is that Switch players are happy with the product they purchased and are throwing a tantrum because they're not getting wishlisted bonus features. (The second part of that misconception—which I know exists from conversations I've had—is that all consoles were lumped together when BHVR said they wanted to add cross-progression, and Switch was never explicitly promised anything… for which I have sources to prove otherwise.)
The reality is the opposite: Many/most Switch players have not been happy with the product they bought. We received an inferior product (which we bought in the first place because cross-progression was promised) and many of us stuck with it and purchased DLC because BHVR made multiple statements that our purchases would transfer to PC and our patience, money, and loyalty would go further than on other consoles. We were the only console BHVR made this promise to, and now we are the only platform not getting it.
The very big important factor here is that many people based their purchases on the statements BHVR made and would not have made those purchases had BHVR not made those statements.
Were this something BHVR never stated, or had they not released the game on Switch and taken our money, then yeah, the correct response to yesterday's announcement would be "disappointment." But that's not what happened, and I'm pretty sure consumer protections exist to hold companies accountable in situations like this. And you seem to be backing up my statement, which is good to hear.
I don't want bad things to happen to BHVR. I'm sorry that they're left holding the ball here when there were two companies involved, but it's ultimately BHVR's responsibility to fix it because the promises made while accepting money were made by them.
Edit: Expanded on the second part of the misconception since it's something I've noticed when conversing with others. The first part, that people may not understand Switch players put up with an inferior product for promised future payoff, is conjecture, but the second part about many non-Switch players never realizing Switch had already been singled out for guaranteed cross-progression (including transfer of purchases/DLC) is not conjecture.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on1
