Hook Suiciding
why is this still a thing why do survivors have the oppurtinity to give the last hatch???? that should be removed cause it happens every match
Comments
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Just to clarify, are you arguing that hook suiciding should be removed because it's frustrating and ruins games, or because there's an opportunity to give the fourth survivor hatch without them having to wait for a minute (soon to be 70 seconds) because let's face it they're not being rescued?
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Hook suiciding to leave the game when it's barely started, and ruin the match for everyone left behind, is one of the most persistent nuisances in this game… but you can't seriously be complaining that the second last survivor dipping out to give their teammate a better shot at surviving. Like. Why should they waste 1-2 minutes of their own time just to sandbag their partner? What incentive do they have not to leave at that point?
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Then, try to talk the developers into a chill mode or quit trying to turn the game into a competitive trash game.
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This wasn't what I expected when I saw the thread title. Figured it would be another thread complaining about survivors ruining the match for everyone when they quit the game at the start of the match. Which is a fair complaint and one that should be addressed. Just make it so if you make more than one self unhook and/or miss more than one skill check while on the hook during the first 5 minutes of the match then it counts as a disconnect for penalty purposes.
But your complaint is at the end of the game when there are only 2 survivors left and you hook one of them that the player shouldn't be allowed to leave to give the last survivor a chance at the hatch? What is wrong with you? Does your ego need 4 kills so badly? If so then why wouldn't you just slug the second to last survivor? You already have the tools available. There is absolutely no valid reason to make a change based on your complaint.
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It's really not that bad.
When the second to last survivor throws for the other to get hatch, the killer has an equal chance for hatch to spawn near them too. It's just a last ditch effort to save the last survivor.3 -
Personally I think the hatch should be removed all together. I don't mind too much because im happy with the 3k and don't mind slugging. But my issues with the hatch are
1. It encourages slugging which most people hate. Even if I down last survivor before they find the hatch, I tend to just slug them, look for the hatch to close for the extra BP then hook them.
2. In many of my games it's lead to a stand off where the last 2 survivors know they can't do the gens so don't even try and they both hide hoping the other player gets killed so the hatch opens.
3. It can lead to 1 survivor essentially sabotaging the team by avoiding gens, doing nothing the whole match or even deliberately trying to get teammates killed so hatch spawns. (I have seen this a few times, they usually go into the match with a key for this purpose)
4. Spawn locations are insane, they are no where near random enough. There has been times the hatch spawned at the killers feet and other times it spawns at the survivors feet.
From what I can see, the only advantage to the hatch is it gives a potential free pass to the last survivor which gives them incentive to come out of hiding at the end of the match.
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That is a really poor understanding of what the hatch is about. There are killer players on these forums (and you are clearly one of them) that fail to understand that the hatch is a mechanic is in the game for the killer as much as the survivor. Its purpose is to end the game in a reasonable amount of time. You brush the subject when you mention "In many of my games it's lead to a stand off where the last 2 survivors know they can't do the gens so don't even try and they both hide hoping the other player gets killed so the hatch opens".
Now imagine a game where there is no hatch. When it becomes apparent to the survivors that winning by conventional means is impossible and working gens is pointless then what do you expect the players to do? When there are only 2 survivors left and there is more then one gen left to be completed then it is literally impossible for the survivors to escape by completing gens unless the killer goes AFK. Without the hatch, then the only thing the survivors have left to do is waste the killers time. And that is exactly what they do. If you think it sucks searching the map for 2 survivors that refuse to work gens then trust me when I say it is so much worse looking for one survivor that refuses to work a gen and there is no hatch to end the game.
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you can just slug for 4k
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the hatch is a mechanic is in the game for the killer as much as the survivor
noone buys that sorry. they can simply just add the ability to open the gates as the killer after some time passes.
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They're not wrong though.
Opening the gate only assists the survivor in most cases. Hatch is the better alternative to breaking the stalemate quickly and creates a tense rush between whoever finds it first. The only downside right now is the slugging for 4k thing, which my only defense for is adept challenges. (As poor a defense as that may be.)5 -
if the killer doesn't want to wait they will give the gate and if they wouldn't mind waiting they won't, it would be up to their decision. more often than not survivors are able to get the escape be it for the total random hatch spawn or indefensible gates so i wouldn't mind the trade off.
slug for the 4k isn't the only downside, ratting survivors also are. even 2v8 games come to a halt after 3-4 deaths because all the remaining survivors start hiding for hatch(es).
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You're forgetting cases where the last survivor would hold the game hostage by hiding, which can already be done with 2 survivors. Hatch and EGC prevent this without risking giving the survivor an easy win for basically stalling out the match until either the killer opens a gate or triggers the hard cap on server time.
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Why should we have to stay any longer in a game that is over? The killer has won, regardless of if last person has gotten the hatch. We just want to move onto the next round instead of wasting our own time. I'd rather leave the killer and last survivor to it then hang around longer then necessary
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You can just slug, so it's fine for now
If they made something ridiculous like free unbreakable or forced hooks, that's like guaranteed hatch spawn so would be stupid
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which can already be done with 2 survivors
you answered your own question. killer can open the gate if they don't want to be "held hostage" by 1 or 2 survivors or won't open it, it's up to them. this way slug for 4k sweatlords and hide for hatch rats can fight each other as long as they want, until server closes. idk what the problem with this would be. again, with hatch the last survivor already has a hefty chance of getting the escape anyway so killer opening the gate wouldn't be much more of a free escape compared to current hatch, which is out of killer's agency.
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I understand perfectly what the hatch is about lol like you said it's to end the game in a reasonable time but your failing to see my point. You can achieve the same result by having a count down timer instead of a hatch. As others have said, if by that point the gens are not done then the survivors have already lost so why give them a hatch to escape from? It's a free pass. You don't see the same system for killers, all gens done, gates open 4 survivors remaining where is the free kill for the killer? As it stands the hatch system can and does get abused by survivors that effectively hold the game hostage by not doing gens, hiding out of sight. In this situation the killer can't do anything to end the game they have clearly won and that is holding the game hostage, it only ends when the survivors say it ends.
By removing the hatch and replacing it with a timer of some sort it eliminates the need to slug for a start. It also would help stop survivors abusing the system by deliberately hiding for 20min hoping the other would die as there would be no free pass so no incentive to hide. It also gives the killer the win they clearly had.
Like I said I don't mind too much because if I find 2 people trying to hold the game hostage I slug them to prove a point effectively eliminating the hatch option and creating my own timer via bleed out. What's best standard count down where survivors can move and do things or a count down where they are slugged?
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I didn't answer my own question, you're just repeating your point. Letting the survivor out for hiding isn't the right way at all, not in a game like this. Hatch makes more sense.
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you proved hatch doesn't suffice at preventing taking hostage situations. i'll repeat again i guess, if the killer is bothered by survivors getting the free escape, they could simply not open the gate. i understand that with hatch they can both end the game and have a chance of not giving a free escape to the survivor but that comes with its own different problems we mentioned above so i don't think it's worth at all.
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The hatch spawns at the start of the match (there used to be a bug that it had collision while being invisible right from the start) so when it opens at somebody's feet it's just a coincidence.
Also, the hatch keeps the killrates a bit lower, if you add a mechanic like a timer, that will turn the majority of 3ks into 4ks the killrates will probably rise and that will probably lead to Killers nerfs.
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I don't see the problem, not like BHVR can't adjust "target kill rate" according to those number changes, either
The results won't change anyway
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That's my point, the game hands the survivor the escape. They should nerf the killers and get rid of the hatch so people can't abuse it. Whilst 3k games would become 4k on the flip side there are many games that more survivors would survive if there wasn't 1 person going into the match with the intention to get easy hatch escape. Maybe if that survivor helped then all 4 could survive in some cases. It has it's pros and cons for kill rates. But without the hatch the survivors would at least earn their escape and not deliberately try to hold the game up even with nerfed killers.
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If this happens every match, then that means, that you get a 3k every match. Not happy?
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I don't get what you mean, you think killrates wouldn't change without hatch?
And with adjusting the killrates, do you mean balance changes or do you mean using the new killrate as new target rate?
I don't see people playing for hatch often, but I do play a lot of SWF, so I might underestimate it.
You seem to care a lot about earning things. I don't understand that, luck is always influencing dbd and I don't see the issue with it, a 3k is a win just like a 4k. Not saying that hatch is the perfect solution, but as someone who has experienced hatch standoffs and 3man escapes at one gen left, I think the current version is fine. And the Killer seems to find it first more often in my experience. But since you wouldn't mind trading Killer nerfs for deleting hatch it's a fair opinion, even though I don't agree with it.
You could also argue from a horror trope standpoint having a last survivor escape makes sense, but that is imo a weaker argument.
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Funnily enough, most believe getting Hatch is a win, which it's not. They failed their main objective. To finish generators and power the gates to then escape.
While it's fine to me the last survivor gets Hatch. To Me, it should be the lowest BP ever (if not nonexistent BP achieved) ((but I don't much pay attention to how much a Hatch Escape actually gets earned anyways))
It's just funny how some get so cocky they escaped through Hatch as if it's a win.
All that said. In agreement, Hook Suicides also should negatively minus their BP. If the Entity wasn't given enough pleasures to slowly kill them on hook. She should eat at their BP for effortly wasting attempts of 4%ing.
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You can achieve the same result by having a count down timer instead of a hatch. As others have said, if by that point the gens are not done then the survivors have already lost so why give them a hatch to escape from?If I understand your suggestion correctly, the problem is that it wouldn't be fun.
DbD pushes tension, the heavy heart beating in the chest, trying to match the excitement, if not the horror, of the horror trope. Running for a hatch is exciting, it creates drama for both sides. The tension of the search which turns to relief when you hear the hatch sound is a very good mini-game.
A count down timer is the game just kind of ends.
You don't see the same system for killers, all gens done, gates open 4 survivors remaining where is the free kill for the killer?Killers have there own version. It's much easier to secure that last hook then it was the others. Is it guaranteed? No, but neither is hatch.
Also, once the gens are done and gates open, the survivors should be leaving. There should be a mechanism to force them out in such situations, but the game is over.
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You can just increase target kill rates to 61% or 62% even 65% depends on how much hatch changes introduce, actual gameplay doesn't really change anyway, so difference in target rate shouldn't affect anyone
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luck is fine I get that, luck of gen placement, starting places ect. It's not that I care about earning things but I do think it's a bit unfair on the other 3 survivors that have put the effort in for that one useless survivor to get what's considered a win (escape) then brag about it post game. Each to their own I suppose I mean noed can basically do the same thing for the killer, do nothing all match then mop up at the end with noed. It's crazy how many survivors have an issue with noed but not the hatch.
Like I said previously it's not that much of an issue because I can just slug them most of the time to get around the hatch issue. But my main gripe with the hatch is that it causes a stand off with the last 2 survivors. Both want to escape but won't do gens because they admit defeat and acknowledge they can't all be done with 2 player so hide. If there was no hatch then there would less incentive for the stand off (other than just pure toxic reasoning). That's why I would happily have killers nerfed if it meant the stand off for the hatch wouldn't happen.
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On nightlight 3ks make up between 13 and 22% of the matches. Sure, 3ks with open gates happen, but aren't that common in my experience so I would expect the killrates to rise more than a few percent when turning most of the 3ks into 4ks.
People would die more and they probably wouldn't be happy about it. A 4k is also more dispiriting than a 3k, so I don't think that the change wouldn't affected anyone.
Obviously, that doesn't apply if a new method would be introduced that still makes it possible to escape alone (e.g. a 1vs1 like some people suggested) but the person I answered suggested a timer without hatch and that will definitly increase killrates.
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People dying instead of escaping through hatches, is in my eye same thing
Game is lost, escape is nothing but a pity, you won't even rise MMR
Rise of killrate is meaningless when the amount of winning and losing matches doesn't change
It might change the feeling a little though, but then I'm not against fixing balance according to higher kill rate too
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You say it wouldn't be fun... Is the 2 man stand off where they hide for 20min because they both want hatch but refuse to do gens fun? That's my issue with it. The count down timer would end the stalemate, finish the match and allow people to move on to the next one. Maybe 5min timer when there are 2 left? Should be enough time to get the remaining gens done if they are able to but not enough time to take the piss and hide for an undetermined amount of time. Doesn't cause stalemate doesn't give the survivors the win for holding out the match.
I see what your trying to say about the killer having something similar but in order to get that secure kill the killers has to get them on the hook first. A survivor can find the hatch with keys/maps well in advance. The closest thing a killer has to getting a free kill is noed but if there are no totems then it becomes pointless.
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Hatch Escape grants 2500 Objective-BPs (on top of the BPs gained for escaping in the Survival-Category). I dont really think it is significant at all. I dont think that most Survivors gain the full 2500 BPs when escaping, since they will most likely have Objective BPs maxed out or are close to them being maxed out.
To the rest of your post - you can revert the argument easily. Killers seem to think that a Hatch escape is a Loss. At least you get this impression when reading the Forums. But a 3K + Hatch Escape is usually a Win for the Killer, yet some Killers seem to see it as a lost, even if only one Survivor can escape.
When it comes to less BPs for Hook Suicides - nah. You would punish the wrong people with that. Someone who wants to get out of the game ASAP will not care about BPs (because otherwise they would play the game). And I dont see anything wrong with a Survivor suiciding near the end of the game to give Hatch. If it is their first Hook, they would otherwise have to wait 2 minutes (or 140 seconds after the next Patch) to get into the next game, while most likely not being saved anyway.
So why should Survivors at this point have to waste everyones time (including their own) to not lose BPs?
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I can answer that. It’s so killers are more likely to get their 4K.
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You say it wouldn't be fun... Is the 2 man stand off where they hide for 20min because they both want hatch but refuse to do gens fun? That's my issue with it.I'd say the number of times an interesting hatch game occurs justifies those long games, but you might hit it more frequently. It never happens to me as survivor because I won't hide that long. I've definitely had it happen as killer, but not nearly on the level I've had fun hatch chases.
The count down timer would end the stalemate, finish the match and allow people to move on to the next one.It just kind of makes the game into a farce. A mercy rule.
I doubt I'd have any problem with the rule, nor anyone who measures their numbers in the four+ digits, but I feel like anyone else it would really suck. 'That's it, it's just over?' doesn't really have the feel DbD is going for.
I also think there are other ways to address it. X amount of time without touching a gen, aura gets shown for example.
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Yes, with TWO survivors.
It will be worse without hatch when there's only ONE survivor to find.
How is that hard to figure out?
Edit: Let's add to this. With your system, if one survivor just hides all game killer has no choice but to open a gate and potentially let them win. Especially if they're not injured. Two survivors hiding sucks, but you can't open the gate already, and if you could why would you? That's the main problem, letting survivors win scott free for just hiding and not doing the objective. In the case of one survivor left without hatch, THEIR objective is the gates, not the killer's. Also on top of this, if there's one survivor left chances are the generators aren't finished and the gates can't be opened at all. Are you suggesting the killer be able to just open the gates whenever to give survivors free exits?
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The attitude of the OP in this thread, in my opinion, is honestly one the major things wrong with the game.
So many killers seem to think they're entitled to a 4K and some also seem to resent having to put any effort into it.
If the third survivor is suiciding on the hook, then you're getting your 3K. But complaints still come because you're not GUARANTEED the 4K? Even though the vast majority of matches I play I don't even bother looking for the hatch anymore as killers tend to find it within the first 10-20 seconds of it spawning. Unless it pops open right by you, or you're fortunate enough to find it in chase you aren't getting out using it. Then you have even less chance of getting out via the doors unless you can majorly avoid the killer which, if so, you deserve the escape. That scenario too is very uncommon.
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Look, I'm a killer player and I think there's some odd stances on this entire thing.
If you have a survivor throwing to try and save the last one, you're winning on gens and you have an equal, if not BETTER chance (depending on your killer) of finding hatch first and forcing a gate game. I win those situations more than lose them and this whole debate confuses me.
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As a survivor main, I kinda hate the hatch mechanic as it is the main reason killers slug for the 4k. While in many cases it can feel really petty to slug for the 4k (someone went next first hook etc), I do get it and I don't necessarily blame the killers.
Personally I would rather leave it to RNG when I play killer, if the survivor finds the hatch first… meh. I don't want to waste mine and another person's time slugging for a 4k that means nothing.
I kinda wish they would just remove the damn hatch or rework it a bit
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It's not like I can't see where you are coming from, but the hostage situation is just not common for me. And since I play a lot of SWF I usually watch and root for the last survivor (same with a random that played well, it makes me happy when they can escape).
Personally, I'll try to get the gens when there are two people left, escaping with two people is rare but not Impossible.
I will hide if the Killer is slugging for the 4k though. They are most likely on top of the downed survivor anyway and I find slugging for the 4k annoying, so I'm not gifting the kill to them.
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i tried to keep going so long without a word but it's getting tiring. you say i keep repeating but you are stuck arguing the same thing. i prefer the choice given to me instead of giving survivors the chance for a free escape on behalf of me. if i don't care about them leaving, i'll open the gate and if i care about it i won't and all the slug for 4k players everyone is complaining about thinks the same way. it's the way killers fight that decision being made for them, they don't want hatch given to survivors. the matches i'll not slug for 4k i already given up the last survivor so if the gate opening system came live i'd just open it in such matches, because i don't care and if i cared i wouldn't open it. here i repeated the same thing for a full paragraph because that's the entire thing there's not much to it. i want the freedom of choice so i don't have to slug for 4k if i need the 4k or want it or want a specific survivor dead.
edit: yes my suggestion is giving killers the ability to open gates whenever after 15 mins into the match or something, regardless of gen count or number of alive survivors.
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What I just read… Survivors having opportunity give last one chance to hatch is one of the only situations when hook suiciding is 100% justified.
Hatch is game mechanic to give last survivor chance to escape and something to play for in already lost game. Killer still however often has the better chance to find it anyway and get the 4K.
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So what stops killers from just opening the gate immediately every match, constantly and not participating in the game?
This idea has so many flaws that hatch fixes. Hatch isn't perfect but yours opens up many other problems. And no, I kept bringing up the issues and you're glossing over them without addressing them. I even added more problems your system has and you still haven't really addressed them.
And this is coming from a killer player who doesn't care a bit about hatch. It's fine if the second to last survivors dies to try and save their last teammate, there's not a problem with that at all. Your system will encourage not only 1-2 survivors stalling the game until killer gives up and opens the gates, but possibly entire coordinated SWF hiding all match to get a free win.
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That's a double whammy of 'no thanks'. Survivors would be stiffed on a ton of BP and their matches would be significantly worse when they get forcibly stuck in losing matches with zero chance of winning, and on the killer side, if the kill rate goes up as a result of hatch removal and to compensate, killers take overall nerfs that bring not just the kill rate, but the win rate down, that's going to feel worse on them, too.
That would make things worse on both sides, which is really hard to accomplish in DBD.
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it would be the same outcome but a less toxic motive - it would be the last 2 hiding until killer gives up so they both can leave but now it's the last 2 hiding hoping each other get found first and die, with potential sandbag attempts.
i see only content creators doing a full swf hiding thing but besides why would anyone do that and how does hatch prevent that if they have a weird understanding of fun? a full swf has way more and guaranteed means of winning a match than that i believe.
killers shouldn't be able to open gates from the get go obviously, it's after some time passes. this way killer also has a way to give up against survivors that won't do gens, either bullying the them or hiding. survivors can just glue their faces to gens until they die in such situations but killer has no option (talking about matches where killers start to lick a gate switch and open it as soon as gens are done, but imagine it with a lobby that won't do gens).
what does hatch fix that this hypothetical system won't? you said it doesn't fix survivors taking hostage situations yourself if it's basically more than 1 person doing it. does hatch fix hide for free escape situations? definitely not it causes them. it also causes/warrants slugging for 4k if we are to add more reasons to get rid of it. this way a killer petty enough to slug for 4k will just not open a gate and will be able to send people to their next game if the survivor wishes to.
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Are you complaining about the only case where hook suicide is good?
I have to ask: was that bait?
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It’s not bait. I’m surprised you find it hard to believe that killer mains actually want a 4K as quickly and easily as they can. Have you ever been to the DBD Reddit?
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There are poor characters on both "main" sides. I don't even try to understand them.
As for Reddit, it is a cesspool. I'm not about to dip even a toe in it.
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What?
How is it less toxic to make the killer choose between searching for over an hour+ or giving up and opening the gates? You're trading one toxic trait for another. And heck, giving up for the last survivor to get hatch ISN'T toxic to begin with.
And guess what? Even with your system killers may choose slugging just to keep survivors from hiding by using deerstalker and knockout. Better to let them bleed out and keep searching in that situation. And you're not seeing full SWF hiding BECAUSE of the current system. It would absolutely be worse if they can force the killer to open the gates out of impatience or just not having the time to wait out an hour long game.Edit: You're also not acknowledging that while hatch still doesn't stop TWO survivors from hiding, your system will encourage 1-4 survivors hiding all match and make it a MORE viable strategy to do so.
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Sure, but this is specifically about 4Ks, killer mains, and a killer main ranting about the 2nd to last survivor giving up on hook before the killer can find the last survivor and kill them for the 4K. Not every discussion needs to both sides it. The reason I mentioned Reddit is because if you went to the DBD Reddit you’d find OP’s is a common sentiment. It’s not at all unusual
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Exactly, that’s why I cannot understand the OP mentality. It’s almost always going to go in the favour of the killer anyway and on the few occasions it doesn’t just take it on the chin and move on. A 4K imo should be the product of a very well played match by a killer - not something we just hand out by forcing the last survivor into a corner who must await the inevitable. The more survivors a game loses the more killer favoured the match becomes. But there still needs to be something for that last survivor to try and do to survive. The hatch and the doors provide that, albeit it at very slim odds, but it’s still a very big challenge for the survivor to get out at this point. Killers should still have some sort of challenge too at this point… especially as you’ve already technically won anyway.
Post edited by jajay119 on2 -
I find this whole premise of an ‘already lost game’ a bit of an odd one because the survivor role is to survive. To me, the game isn’t lost until you’ve been sacrificed . If I can evade the killer and find the hatch or get the doors open it’s still a personal victory. Sure, it would be a success too if you get out with some team mates, but that to me is a group victory. The two are not mutually exclusive. This whole ‘already lost match’ and ‘it’s a pity exit, you don’t even gain MMR’ excuses I see bandied around are flimsy attempts to negate the hatch that don’t have any true basis in the solo survivor experience.
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