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Tunneling causes player decline
Let’s ignore the usual “it’s toxic”. This time it’s about the growth and player retention.
So through this event I got several people to play the game and try it with me. About four. At first they were loving it. They were terrible, but having fun despite their mistakes. There was laughter.
And then the tunnelers came.
Now they quit. Now they won’t get back on. Because “how can I play and get better if I’m hunted off hook”.
Yes there are perks to help but the thing is. They don’t have them. They don’t have any DLC they’re new.
Now with experienced players. It’s a big reason not to play survivor. I typically refuse to play unless I’m begged or a challenge.
Tunneling is not only detrimental to game health, but also to player retention. Something desperately needs to be done to minimize the effectiveness or something to heavily punish it. So NEW players can have a chance and have fun too.
What are your suggestions to minimize this issue?
Mine would be: point penalty, heavily increasing length of endurance, heavily increased haste upon endurance activation off hook
Comments
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Well first of all we'd have to rebalance the game because you can't just delete tunneling and let it be like this, against efficient survivors you need tunneling.
We'd have the option to buff killers heavely, turn up gen speed and delete tunneling and camping at the same time and have super quick rounds where survivors can't do much.
Or we'd have to nerf genspeed/buff base-regression, nerf regression-perks, buff chaseperks and give more of them and delete tunneling and camping.
Both of these option would balance it out that you can delete tunneling and camping and still have viable killers.
I couldn't tell you how to delete them tho, maybe make it similar to the cages from 2vs8 because your idea would be irrelevant. You'd just have to hit them instantly and your entire play to discourage it doesn't work.
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Honestly give haste and endurance for 60s during main game (it would deactivate at end game) and let killers try and tunnel and lose because of it. I know people will moan but literally don't tunnel and it wouldnt effect you.
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Tunneling itself isnt inherently bad, but the way a killer can proxy camp a hook and immediately go back for the survivor before they even have time to fight back is whats bothersome. Id recommend a time delay before the survivor hud changes to unhooked, and maybe delete the notification?
It would also be nice if killers were further rewarded for not tunneling, like everyone is moriable if theres 8 hook with everyone alive,I think it just comes down to not making tunneling as accessible and adding benefits towards not tunneling
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I win most my games without tunneling so does most players so no need to make huge changes if tunneling is nerfed.
Killers even been getting buff after buff recently so game already balanced around killers not tunneling but you can't just give only carrot. Winning has never been easier.
Tunneling was needed 2 years ago when map like garden of joy or eyrie existed but when reworked maps has now 5 unsafe pallets is tunneling needed?
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The problem is the few people you know who won't return due to tunneling is not the same as the overall trend that DBD has experienced over the past few years.
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What are your suggestions to minimize this issue?Simple.
Baseline DS 5 seconds.
The perk can be changed around that, a second activation, move speed, or an entirely different effect.
But DS is and has always been an amazing tool vs tunneling. It should be baseline, it shouldn't be a perk and it certainly SHOULDNT BE behind a paywall.1 -
Being a relatively long time player, the game is certainly not as crowded as it used to be and it's only getting worse.
And 100% my hat that tunneling is the main reason.7 -
I mean tunneling/camping/slugging is unhealthy for the game.
The problem is that vs better, more coordinated survivors its part of the balancing of the game.
Ideally they would make it so using these tactics were impossible or significantly less effective and rebalanced the game in some way so killers wouldnt become weaker.
One of the main reasons why i liked 2v8 so much is that tunneling/camping/slugging werent so prominent on that mode.
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Yes it is, if you're able to win without tunneling and camping the survivors weren't on your level. A efficient team won't let you win without tunneling and camping because you just loose gens quicker than you're able to down and kill them.
Besides that eyrie and garden of joy are still two of the most awful maps ever released, they are horrible. The reworks didn't change that at all.
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I would say the biggest cause of player decline is terrible team mates
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I hate the argument "if you don't need to tunnel the survivors aren't on your level". couldn't I just as easily argue that if you need to tunnel the survivors are at a higher level than you sense you need to deploy cheap/desperate tactics to win? Furthermore if you have to deploy cheap tactics to win, wouldn't it make since to NOT do that, making the killers kill/escape ratio drop. giving the devs better data and showing them that killers are worse off if they play fair….leading to them buffing killers so people don't have to play in such a manner that promotes toxicity
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As most killers in the game you have to tunnel on occasion to win vs survivors that are even mildly coordinated. As legion you're going to tunnel on occasion, for example.
A scenario: two gens left, everyone has one hook. You hook a survivor and they get unhooked. If you don't go after the death hook person you'll very likely lose. It would be stupid and game losing not to. The issue is not black and white. It's easy and tempting to say "thing is bad" or "thing is good", but seeing nuance and having empathy requires flexing a certain amount of mental muscle.
That's no more scummy that letting someone hit 2nd so you can break a 3 gen. It's just trying to win the game with all the tools in your kit.
Also sorry to say, tunneling isn't really as frequent as people pretend. They take a hit with base BT and the killer rightfully sticks them back on the hook. Not tunneling. They have DS up so go and get downed for their friend, trigger DS and get put back on the hook. Not tunneling. They get unhooked, try to heal under hook and the killer comes back and their friend doesn't take aggro. Not tunneling. All that stuff is just poor game sense but people will throw themselves on the metaphorical ground and scream and screech that they got tunneled.
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Well the game isn't balanced to be played without, that's exactly why they just make it harder to tunnel and camp and don't delete it entirely. Besides that the argument "just lose even if you could win because I feel like it's toxic even tho it doesn't have anything to do with me as a person" is a VERY bad argument too. I really hate loosing and I don't have the intention to give the win without fighting, so if I have to tunnel and camp I will do it.
It's only toxic if you take it as toxicity, for me tunneling is just a nessasary thing to do, I'm not mad when I'm getting tunneled and I even find it fun to try to live as long as possible.
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This is same argument as you need to tunnel because survivors are better than you and for me that's true I only do tunnel mostly agains't survivors above my skill level. If you actually tunnel all games you can win every game and never lose. There is blight having 2000+ wins streak with tunneling/camping. That's why I think the game is not balanced around it you are supposed to lose sometimes. I kinda feel bad beating very good players with that strat.
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Those maps are now much more manageable. Garden of joy even seem to have some deadzones. Both of those maps are only shadow of what they used to be.
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The game is balanced to play without tunneling and camping. Myself and scores of other killers are proof of that. you DO NOT need to tunnel to win. If losing a match upsets you so much that you resort to tunneling/toxic behavior as your main tactic….thats just called being a sore loser and bad sportsmanship. I win virtually every match with my ghostface without tunneling or camping…and i have 0 gen regression perks. when i dont win its never less than a two kill. and its not "mmr" cuz as i said…i rarely ever lose and im a killer main with 3k hours. Its just that pressure + prediction is better than tunneling.
like yeah. tunneling and camping is an easy win. But by singling out a specific player and ruining their experience just for your benefit and lack of proper skill…is toxic. If you intentionally and repeatedly perform an action that you know is ruining the experience of others, that's toxic. Now this isnt the same as typical gamer rage when theyre losing, it is the intentional performance of actions that you know will significantly ruin the enjoyment of others. DBD is notorious for its ridiculously toxic community. So as players, do we not have a responsibility to help facilitate an environment that encourages enjoyment and health for all players? If losing a few matches means a happier community and results in a better balanced game, is it worth not tunneling?
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It's really not. I understand you're the greatest killer in the world, but most people simply cannot reach your level of rarified excellence. For most of us mere mortals, you gotta get someone out when the game is close.
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Uh, no. Tunneling doesn't do anything of the sort. This game is rapidly closing in on a decade. People have been complaining about anything and EVERYTHING since day one. People throw around terms like Tunneling and Camping (and make up new ones all the time) without the slightest understand of what they actually mean. If Tunneling was killing the Player Base, given how often the loudest among us complain, Dead by Daylight would have been dead and buried long ago. The game is healthy and still going strong. It has the normal ups and downs which have more to do with the desire for new content, but the behaviors inside the game which people call "toxic" have nothing to do with it.
For that matter I've had a crazy guy call me toxic for bringing cake. Throwing around assertions like this with zero data to support them might seem appropriate in this election season, but it is in fact silly, unethical, and in no way supports your argument. REAL Tunneling is actually quite rare as it happens. And no behavior inside the match that is within the rules is toxic.
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Again, no. Just, no. The game is not balanced around behaviors within the game. The game is balanced around results of the matches. The DEV have told us this again and again. They are seeking a certain success rate, and as long as Survivors and Killers linger in that general vicinity, there is a rough balance. How Survivors get there and how Killers get there isn't a factor. My suggestion is that you worry about YOU. What can you do inside the match to get the results you want? I realize you seem to care very deeply about what other people are doing and how they play, but that just makes you a busybody who feels entitled to decide what is right and wrong for everyone else. That isn't your job. That isn't my job. Our job is to decide how we play personally. I never complain at Killers or Survivors for their legal tactics. The only time you are going to hear me get heated is when I see hacking, or someone using lag to throw things off, or some dirty Survivor that decides to work with the Killer. Beyond that I say have at it! And while REAL Tunneling is extremely rare, when it happens it is still just a legal tactic where the Killer is choosing to sacrifice all other pressure to chase one person down. It is rarely that profitable once outside of Potato levels.
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If youre not gonna be constructive dont comment. im not talking about last minute desperate kill. im talking about those who only ever tunnel the entirety of the match. noone will be mad if one dude is tunneled at the end of the match.
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yes they do balance it around the results. however, tunneling is a behavior that directlt effects the results of a match. so, if the behavior effects the results, and the results are what is being used for balance. then this is a behavior that can be influenced by balance changes. If the results of killers losing frequently, result in the behavior of tunneling. then the opposite must be true.
also what's with the personal attack dude? chill
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What are you talking about here? His comment was to the point. He may have delivered it with humor, but what he is suggesting is quite correct. You are making the suggestion that the game never requires any tactics YOU personally find toxic. Moreover, you indicate that you are a Killer that never had to use said tactics and manage to achieve great results. The person you are responding to is, far kinder than me, and is at least giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are honest in that regard. They constructively point out that most people are NOT able to get consistent results playing by your version of the Survivor's Handbook. The argument is sound, even if sarcastic.
I'm more direct and less kind. I don't believe you when you make such statements, an opinion which is entirely my own. And even if I did believe you, I would point out that you don't get to decide how OTHERS should be playing based on yourself.
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I haven't made any personal attacks on you. I have addressed your arguments and made a statement of fact about your insistence on policing other people. For example, what you said above is not logically sound. I could break down those sentences, line by line, and show you why that doesn't mean what you think it means, and why you are simply wrong, but that would be mean and over the top. The DEV have stated, MANY times, the overall Kill/Escape Rate they are looking for and have even provided percentages. Those numbers are being hit by the game in a fairly reliable way with all the current tactics in the game. As it happens, the DEV favor a slightly higher Kill rate than Survival based on the theme of the game itself. So if the game ain't broke, they don't try to fix it. Seems like a reasonable approach. I'm going to point out, again, that you should focus on what YOU do in the game.
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Sarcasm isnt kindness. And dude. look. what i am saying, isnt unique to me. its is arguably the primary complaint people have in this game. you can use the search option to find more threads of a similar topic. I don't care how people play, until that playstyle becomes problematic. problematic behavior is the topic. Now you say it's a "me" thing. It has also been acknowledged by the devs as an issue, similar to camping. Which is why they continue to make changes to counter that behavior. So….if the devs acknowledge that it can be problematic, and most people who play survivor agree it can be a problem…clearly it isn't just a me thing. so again, you're making it personal for no reason. chill out.
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you literally called me entitled and made assumptions on my thought process.
"makes you a busybody who feels entitled" ~ you
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That isn't a personal attack. It is a statement of fact, which I can support by quoting you over and over again throughout this topic. I'm not making any assumptions about your thought processes. I'm taking you literally at your words/posts. You seem fixated on what other people are doing in their matches. You feel they shouldn't be doing certain things. That is the definition of a busybody, and your beliefs about what should be is also the definition of entitlement. We are, however, getting away from the point. Do you find any fault in my suggestion that your time would be better spent worrying about your own playstyle rather than that of other people? Can you explain why you feel you are the person best suited to decide how other people should not be playing? I'm not being mean here. I'm trying to make a point, because I believe personal bias is clouding your judgement and taking you down a road that you neither intend nor realize.
We have all had bad games where the tactics rubbed us wrong. We all get tilted from time to time. These experiences do not mean there is a problem with the game, nor with what the other Player did. I just go by what I was taught in Kindergarten and remember that my personal say and responsibility is ME. I am not the boss of other people.
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okay dude 👍️whatever you say
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The existence of things made specifically to counter tunneling or camping alone makes that opinion incorrect, game is clearly balanced around camping and tunneling in mind
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I think this is misunderstood. Against efficient Survivors you don't need to tunnel, but Killers do need to tunnel against Survivors who are more efficient than they are. If the Killer instead takes the match as a learning opportunity, they will continually improve, and eventually be more efficient than those previous Survivors, and win without tunneling. It is difficult to take the loss when you know you could win (in this context) though. The best way to stretch, improve, and learn, is by banking that thought in your head "I can win if I tunnel, but I'm gunna try to not do that", then since mentally you already know how you won, you can take the risk and grow.
Essentially tunneling is an admission of defeat against superior opponents, and going for the sand in the eyes trick to cheese out a win. A Killer who doesn't resort to low-brow tactics will eventually become stronger and without reliance on such crutches.
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Nope. All things equal a legion, dredge or trapper is gonna have to tunnel to have a chance vs an equally competent team. Different killers do different stuff with different levels of facility. The best legion in the world cannot 4k a comp team. The best nurse however has a shot at it.
It's bizzare that the vastly different power levels of different killers doesn't have a place in this rationale. They aren't all the same. All this stuff reads like macho git gud nonsense without any basis in reality.
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I mean I have those 3 Killers among my top 5(/maybe ten, because Myers and Clown are up there too in terms of most) played, and all at top MMR, and it functions exactly as I described. That post might be a self-report that you haven't even tried to master those Killers. Although this also might be because you are describing a different scenario. I'm talking about normal DBD, when you hit the PLAY button with online matchmaking where you don't know who you will be facing. If you are limiting your discussion to the top 0.00001% of games that are comp matches, then I'll concede that point to you if you concede my point to me.
I do agree that it is bizarre how differently powered Killers are, and at the very least the top 5 should be heavily nerfed and the bottom 5 heavily buffed. If BHVR did this every half year, we might get to the best state of the game so far. (By heavily, I mean 2 tiers worth of buffs/nerfs assuming S→D ranking system. So hypothetically Nurse nerfed from S to B, and Myers buffed from D to B.) If this wasn't what your final message was indicating, then I misunderstood your point there.
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You need to get survivor out of the game at some point.
If you have issue with tunneling, learn to play against it. Those extra 10 second on hook are going to help a lot, if you actually use them...
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Tunneling exists because 4 players are too strong in terms of gen efficiency and 3 players diminishes that efficiency by a lot.
If 4 player efficiency was nerfed and 3 player efficiency was buffed along with tools introduced to encourage the Killer to 4/8 hook Survivors, tunneling would decrease.
It all comes down to hooks or kills, devs still seem set on making kills the main measure of skill in this game.
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Your problem on that is that survivors on higher level are able to deal with it and it's still not consistent if you win, tunneling and camping doesn't let you win automatically it's just a tool that enables you to win at all because you don't have the time to get 12 hooks otherwise before gens are done.
To the blight: it's one of the strongest killers in the game, most players can't even play against him playing without tunneling and camping, so of course he destroys almost everyone playing with it. Besides that it's a streak that's impossible for 99,9% percent of the players, that's just the blight being a monster with his power.
Just because they got worse it doesn't mean they are good in any way, those bushes and the mainbuilding are still the worst things this game has ever seen. And eyrie is still awful regarding the loops.
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The biggest issue as I see it is somehow dealing with direct tunneling with one or even no gens done vs. only a couple of gens remaining and no one dead yet. Tunneling is sometimes the correct call, and as someone mentioned earlier it's not a clear black & white discussion. There's no easy way to do this sadly.
And by direct tunneling I mean the killer returns for the unhooked surv and follows them exclusively until downed and rehooked. Not because they took an endurance hit or foolishly healed under the hook, just focused on out. The feeling a surv getting this is awful and not good for the long term health of the game. Especially for the new players, and imo is unnecessary at 5 gens.
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I won't discus this further because you're ether the best player ever or the matchmaking gives you straight up potatoes. You won't have time for 12 hooks otherwise because you can't get quick downs with an m1 as long as the people now what they do.
Yet again I don't tunnel a specific player but just one survivor I randomly chose because I got them. I don't care at all if the player thinks it's toxic because it's not meant against them but just a way to take the gen-efficiency down. And nope I won't loose matches I could win, idc what anyone says. Besides that I don't even hardtunnel for 90% of the time, I mostly take who I find, so if I find the tunnel I will kill him, if I don't I don't.
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This is the tunneling im referring to guys. This thread has become so rude and angry lol.
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But to deal with tunneling requires from survivors a lot higher skill than from killer that's the problem. That blight shows the max potential of the stragedy never losing. In any other competive game something like that would not be possible.
Tunneling by definition is just focusing on one survivor until that is out 3 hooks only to that one survivor. That leaves lot of room for other stragedies. Who says you have to go other extreme 2 hooking everyone and get 12 hooks? I like to go in middle most of the time that is most balanced and beat even some good teams doing that.
Some teams are so skilled so not even smart to tunnel unless you are as skilled. But if my skill level is below them so I have to try surprice them and only go for chases that I can win. But that blight with 2000 wins can always tunnel as the best survivors are about his skill level and tunneling just is that good he always wins.
So with tunneling even more casual killer likely always win agains't equally skilled opponent. Then loses when facing survivors above his skill level.
There are less pallets on eyrie and once you get some of the good ones away survivors don't have that much to work with. Garden I quess debends what killer you olay probably not good map for bubba with the bushes. But it used to be 10 times worse and seen killers win there majority of times now.
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I know a lot of people say tunneling is necessary at a high level and to some degree they're right and wrong. If you are getting sauced by three people and the one Dwight runs from the hook to the same gen three times, even if I've had fruitless chases with other people it still seems like tunneling when you hook him three times with less hooks on everyone else. It's the people who chase the same person endlessly than complain when tunneling fails that show the problems with it that being said there are some many times where the person off the hook body locks and constantly harasses the killer knowing Ds or ofr protects them. Blanket anti tunnel buffs with no changes to how they work would enable these playstles that leave killers feeling helpless
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They always reply like that, a waste of time.
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I think this isn't about balance. If killers are too weak to win without resorting to toxic and cheap strats to take win they did not actually work for, then remove those strats and balance killers?
NO SIDE actually benefits from this state of the game. None.1 -
There is a deep problem in this game, it's been actually accepted by the devs and it was acknowledged it was a problem (although, it's beyong the point, I just point out how the pro-tunneling resort to lying by asserting devs are with them).
Now you're perfectly allowed to state that you disagree and give counter arguments. This is how sane debates work.
Yet I only see sarcasms, insults, and ignoring the point on your side, along with forbidding us to provide feedback and our opinion on this cheap tactic.If you desperately want a DBD where tunneling is encouraged, again, that is your right, and if the devs don't fix that problem, good for you. But when the playerbase is on a heavier decline than it is now please have the decency not to ask why are people leaving the game and why searching times are getting longer and longer.
This is because while you'rer having so much fun preventing a player from actually playing the game, that player is not having fun at all and is likely to leave the game.
You can't have a multiplayer games without players. Remember that.2 -
I honestly believe people can do anything they want within the rules. I don't feel I get to add extra ones or try to shame people for doing things I don't like. I guess I'm ready for the funny farm. :)
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That's why no one is advocating for punishing players who tunnel, it would make no sense.
We're advocating for changes to be made so that tunneling is either not possible, or not a good tactic anymore.
If tunneling exists but can only results in 3 escapes i'm fine with that.
It's the same thing when in ma multiplayer game people ask for a nerf (even if sometimes people ask for that without data going their way). If a character in, idk, league of legends, is way too strong, is constantly first picked and wins almost all of his games, when asking for a nerf, we're not saying "people shouldn't pick this character". We're saying "people picking this character shouldn't have an automatic win with no skill involved".1 -
And as I and others have pointed out most people scream Tunneling when it isn't Tunneling. In those extremely rare cases where it is Tunneling that too is alright. There are strategies the Survivors can adopt. The game is the game. The Dev will decide if and when it gets changed based on whatever mathematical alchemy they utilize. It isn't a great mystery; they tell us what they base it on. The game is going on a decade soon, and have listened to the same tired cries of outrage and salt since it started. It all comes down to sour grapes, and trying to blame one's own losses on other people or the game being unfair. I even was ONE of you when I first start playing the game.
That's right; I took my turn at the podium raging at the powers that be against the cosmic unfairness of the tactics, the bad game design, and anything else I could vent my spleen at. Everything wrong with my gaming experience was someone else's fault. I look back on those days (and posts) with disgust and cringe. Do you want to know what changed? I realized that, "In the immortal words of the ancient Roly Poly elder lords. I had to git guud and stop being a scrub."
I started worrying about what I did in the match. I started trying out strategies, perks, and adopted a style that works for me. Rather than running from maps, or complaining about the other side's tactics, I saw every rough situation as a chance to practice against it. After awhile, I found I was no longer getting tilted, and having fun. Imagine that. It seems that when you spend more time playing the game, rather than ranting about it, you have more fun. That is my advice to you and any other angry person stepping up to the podium. If you stay with this game, you will one day have to look back at your posts and groan. Learn from our mistakes, and just play.
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If I play poorly and survivors don't, I need to tunnel and camp. I deserve that win.
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Not only that, people that try to play together are forced out the game before match ended. Imagine if in lol 3 towers on your lane are destroyed and thus you are removed from the game... All time invested wasted even if your teammates truly escape.
BDB needs to change it's core aspect - sacrifices during trial, and everything around it to make it more fair to increase player satisfaction.
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