Hatch is a problem for game balance
I believe the existence of the hatch is a problem for game balance. Let me explain why. The game is balanced for a 40% escape rate, but the devs count hatch as escape. Let me say personally as survivor that getting hatch doesn't feel like a victory, it still feels like a loss or at most a mercy escape since you didn't complete your objective as a team. The existence of the hatch makes it so that killers have to be extremely overpowered because hatch escapes are factored into the escape rate, even though they don't show the true strength of survivors or killers.
The issue is that since hatch is factored into the escape rate, what percent of that "40% escape rate" is hatch escapes? If 15% of that figure are hatch escapes, then it means survivors are only winning 25% of the time if we consider a true victory completing 5 gens and escaping through the exit gate. This could also explain why solo queue feels so terrible to play in 1v4 these days, because most matches are complete stomps for the killer in which the last survivor gets lucky and escapes through hatch. If hatch were removed the game could be balanced for a true 40% escape rate in which 40% of matches feel like a true victory for survivors with 5 gens completed and escaping through the exit gate.
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I was under the impression the hatch does not count towards escape rates and other statistics.
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I thought so too, but it was explained to me that while hatch counts toward escape rate stats, it doesn’t count toward MMR.
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It does count in the official stats released by devs and they are balancing by including hatch escapes in the escape rate.
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In that case, I support removing hatch escapes from being counted as a part of escape rate statistics. I do not support removing the hatch from the game.
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Because free escapes are fair, but not if they count towards statistics.
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Without the hatch, the game is over the moment the second survivor is killed, and every 2K becomes an automatic 4K.
This means the game has to be balanced around a 2K being the optimum target for killers, and a 1K being the average.
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If we look at the statics here:
Two Survivors out of 400,, so 2 in 100 games someone escaped via Hatch.
While the numbers are obviously not representative, they show that a Hatch Escape is pretty rare. And from my own experience, I would agree with that. If I come into the situation that the Hatch is the only way for the Survivor (myself or when I am playing Killer) to escape, very rarely does this actually happen.
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You can't say "obviously these numbers are not representative" while trying to use those numbers to represent. The entire thing is pretty far off from normal gameplay to the point it's hard to believe it's not a complete fabrication.
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What about it seems abnormal to you? That person has a 77% kill rate out of 400 games. That doesn’t seem anomalous. At least one killer main has shown a 90% KR out of 1,000 games. And there are others with varying kill rates (all above 60%, which is the average BHVR gave us) who go on win streaks of hundreds of games. It’s quite feasible this player got a 77% KR out of 400 games.
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His traps show he doesn't even average 2 caught survivors per match... not DOWNED, but simply survivors in bear traps. This means this is mostly "man with knife games". Beyond that, this is also 1 person. I could do a similar thing where I slug for the 4k every game. Is that a good indicator of hatch chances on average? If I go afk to get 4 escapes, does that show the average experience?
His shown killrate already shows these stats are far different than average Trapper stats... and this is apparently with random perks?
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Wow I can't believe a hatch escape, which is essentially a draw, is counting as escape in Bhv's official statistics for them to balance the game. No wonder the game has gotten so ridiculously Killer sided.
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But killers have kind of the equivalent to hatch, which is securing a kill during end game. Often enough matches end in a 3 man escape instead of a 4 man escape because the killer can still secure a kill during end game. Which in my eyes would even out the hatch escape rates.
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If a killer gets a 4k in endgame from NOED or some other perk it still feels like a victory for the killer and loss for survivors, it doesn't feel like a draw the same way hatch does. If hatch is going to be factored into the escape rate they balance around I think it should be counted as half an escape, not equivalent to completing 5 gens and escaping through the gate.
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Meanwhile it is fine when someone opens ONE Thread here complaining about something and all the Killers join the echo chamber. :)
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Pretty sure I didn't say that. What I DID say was using the stats of what is clearly NOT the average Trapper experience is completely pointless and provides nothing other than to muck up the water and make things unclear. Even if this info is true... it's a clear outlier, not the average.
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That this is not the average Trapper experience does not matter for the number of Hatch escapes. I only went for this exact number, especially because it aligns with my own experience (as I have said).
What Killer this person played is meaningless for the argument when it comes to Hatch.
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So you'll admit the spreadsheet as a whole is DRASTICALLY different from the norm... that this player who's use of Trappers power is horrible, yet "Man with knife" game is top tier... that we should still take a single stat from this as completely normal.
If you saw a similar spreadsheet of a person claiming to play Huntress getting less than 2 hatchet hits per game but still getting a 77% kill ratio while using random perks... would you be this open to trusting it completely to the point you use it as a basis for random threads?
This makes me wanna share the results of my no-blink nurse matches. 100% Killrate... 0 hatch escapes after 1759 games. My proof is "trust me bro".
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Ok, again for your:
I only care about the Hatch Escapes in those stats.
They alignt with my own experience.
All the other yapping you are doing does not apply to anything. Hatch is not an issue, Hatch does not boost Survival Rates by a significant margin.
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Do you make a habit of watching games play out after you die? If you die first while solo Q, do you NOT just go to the next match?
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I dont play SoloQ, I play Survivor only as a 2 man SWF. And yes, I watch almost every game until the end, since either myself or my SWF-Mate are still alive.
Now you can start yapping about Trapper-games again.
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The match is pretty much over after 2k. After 2k the killer has usually won because the remaining 2 admit defeat and hide so they can try get the hatch. Although this hiding tactic is reportable it still happens after 2k
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YYap Yap Yap Trapper
If a dev told you the normal percentage of Hatch Escapes is drastically higher than 2% for games that reach that point... Would you THEN stop preaching a random spreadsheet you found as gospel? This spreadsheet has more holes than Swiss cheese.
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Sure. Then get a Dev in.
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It doesn’t matter if he played the killer as M1 primarily. That argument is akin to saying “well, he mori’d people instead of hooking them when they were on death hook.” How the survivors fall is irrelevant. You’re splitting hairs. Why?
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The entire thing is super suspicious is all. Usually when someone does really well, it's due to their mastery over the killer's power. This shows the polar opposite, almost as if the person trying to make up an impressive, yet reasonable spreadsheet has no clue what normal Trapper gameplay is like. There's 0 actual footage to go with a random spreadsheet that is taken as fact.
I know there's much more impressive killrates than this, but... that's typically due to a Billy getting alot of value from his saw, a Huntress from her hatchets, etc. This however doesn't really add up. I can believe you'll have some teams that play horribly, but not to the extent that after 200 games of slaughtering teams you haven't boosted your MMR enough to go against teams who can handle "Man with knife" with random perks who apparently deleted the gamescript for the hatch entirely.
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MMR adjustments has nothing to do with wins or losses. It's like that in many games - it's entire existence isn't to reward winning or losing, it's to try to make the game more balance despite match outcomes. In some games, you could even have wins lower MMR ratings depending on how the wins happened (Not in DBD, mind you, but just driving home the point, MMR is not tied to wins\losses). In DBD, there's no real "wins" but instead kills or escapes. if a survivor escapes, they escape regardless of how. The game is designed around 4 1 v 1 situations happening simultaneously. That's why 3 or 4 escapes doesn't say survivor team wins, it's not actually a team game, but survivors are more likely to escape if they work together. The community is the one that came up with the concept of "winning" in DBD…usually being whoever gets 3+ kills\escapes has their side "win". Interestingly enough, you can't have a tie game in DBD, as there's no scenario where no one wins or loses in the case of 4 individual 1 v 1 scenarios happening in a single match. In the end, if a survivor escapes through hatch, they get a +1 to their escape record since it's an escape despite it not affecting MMR. That's also why they can't truly define a win for killers…as every time they eliminate a survivor, that's them "winning" their 1 v 1 with that survivor. Does that mean a 4k would mean 4 wins? Doesn't make sense, so that's why they limit their stats to merely kills or escapes.
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Someone had a 400 streak on Clown… and it seems every other killer has similar numbers. Not sure if they’re all playing to the full scope of their killer’s kit, but I think what’s damning is that a person can obtain such a kill rate without fully using a killer’s powers. It really speaks to how oppressive killers are.
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If hatch did not exist, targeted kill rates will be 75% instead of 60%, this is not a "game balance problem" because there is no way it's an oversight at this point
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What it really speaks to is how many people here blindly believe in every statistic you throw at them.
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Hens playing as trapper not using his power, not tunneling/camping and getting a 90% winrate i believe.
Others streamers tried this too with similar results.
I know he and maybe some other streamers are gonna be outliers in terms of skill but its not that its impossible to do.
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Yeah I think this video is often forgotten when people post the Survivor counterpart video. An individual with extreme skill can accomplish ~50% (multiplicatively) better results than the balanced around amount (40→60% for Surv, 60→90% for Killer). The main difference for Killer, is that you can do this with only yourself to rely on.
My problem has always been the most foolish, gamethrowing soloq teammate can always force a loss for most Survivors. Hens' Survivor video explicitly excluded that (sadly) normal condition, which IMO nullifies the results without the true numbers being represented. This has been a problem for nearly as long as the game has existed, all the way back to the classic 'doing gens you'.
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Afew differences here... The fact the Trapper GOT traps shows he wasn't a highly skilled player challenging himself by not using his power. It shows he's unskilled at Trapper... but at the same time HIGHLY skilled killer. Also unlike Hens, he claimed to have done this with randomized perks.
This doesn't even touch the biggest reason this singular example shouldn't be used when discussing hatch escape rates (which was the point of the thread). Even if we believe this is 100% true... they themselves admitted they played in the scummiest ways to get as many kills as possible. The reason why the hatch escape rate is so low is because he slugged for the 4k every time... the hatch didn't spawn. The few escapes that DID occur can be explained by the 3rd survivor bleeding out.
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For sure playing Pinky Finger Clown every match while slugging the 3rd survivor is going to result in alot of 4ks. It's also a bad indicator on 1) Clown's usual strength and 2) the hatch escape rate.
This thread was all about the Hatch, which basically never got to spawn in the Trapper matches being talked about because that individual claims he played as scummy as possible to get as many kills as possible. This isn't me saying he's scummy, that's his words.
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- going into hatch kills survivor instantly, gives killer all respective points/challenges/achievements for the kill and killer closing hatch results in the last survivor dying as well.
- hatch doesn't spawn with no gens left
- improvements to afk crows/aura read or whatever for cases where 2 (or more) survivors take the killer hostage, to which current hatch fails to become a solution.
done :) they can count hatch escapes as an escape or not whatever, better to not so data isn't skewed.
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BHVR balances for really bad killers. Most knows the game is broken once killer has a little experience.
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You underestimate BHVR's incompetence, my friend!
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