SWF need a time gen debuff
The game can't be balanced around them and was not created with them in mind( all the visual perk prove it). How many perks where getting nerfed bc squad would abuse them? Adrenaline for example.
This is not a competitive game and should be balanced around the solo Q-Killer experience.
is not a punishment for playing with your friend is just a balance to make the game fair for all.
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No. Use the Search Function to see why this is a bad idea.
But just as an example - what would you do about a Solo-Player who plays with a 3 man-SWF who all have a Gen Repair-Debuff? This Solo-Player would be stuck with 3 people who repair Gens slower, despite being the person you would balance around.
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I would say its fair since we killers have had countless perks nerfed for the sole reason that they are insanely strong on Nurse and Blight.
But at the same time me and my SWF are garbage 99% of the time, unless we bring gen rush builds. So penalizing us would be even worse.
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I'd say no to nerfing SWF. But I genuinely wouldn't be oppposed to a system that scales gen speeds just a little. That would reduce the amount one sided stomps, whilst not rubberbanding hard enough to give someone a black eye.
That way if survivors rush gens, then the killer gets a little more time to build some pressure, and if a survivor gets tunneled out early, survivors are capable of making a comeback if they play well. It would also make balancing easier, as there would be more consistency in matches.
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This is not the proper way to deal with this problem, there are 3 ways that would be good, each with their own tradeoffs, on how to deal with this problem, that would not affect game balance of solo vs SWF.
- Make voice chat a thing, allow survivors to communicate with each other by default. This won't perfectly close the gap but it would significantly strengthen solo queue communication. Then, killers can be buffed accordingly to deal with the fact that coms is the more normal thing.
- Remove SWF and force solo queue only. I think this would be extremely unlikely, but in theory it is possible, you can play with your friends if you want using the custom KYF mode and SWF will no longer be a thing.
- Separate out the queues, create a ranked queue that is 3-4 man SWF only, and a solo queue that only allows duos, and ensures that survivors are either 4 solos, or 2 solos and 1 duo. Then they can balance each mode accordingly. For example, in CS:GO, the ranked mode has a different economy and balance than the casual mode where you get free money and armor for just playing.
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And I'm pretty sure they said they will not do any of these three options either. The second one is imo one of those rare things that would actually kill the game, with almost half of all survs in a least a two-man SWF.
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that is fine because it is 3 man swf. gen repair debuff would balance out SWF. It is just that i think it is better to buff soloq to similar gameplay efficiency to swf and then make appropriate nerfs to survivor globally if neccassary.
at the same time, i don't think it is that survivor needs gen speed nerfs, more so that killer needs base-kit gen buffs.
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You’re correct. The devs have stated they aren’t bringing in voice comms, they’re not removing SWF (which would kill the game), and there are no plans to create an ‘ranked’ and ‘casual’ mode either. Frankly, I think this would probably kill the game as well if considering what happened with 2v8 / 1v4. There weren’t enough survivors willing to play so both queues suffered. Would be the same with a ranked vs casual mode really.
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No, because the Solo-Player would also be punished. While they dont have a Debuff, they play with 3 people who have one, lowering their chance of Survivor.
And well, you dont need to balance out SWF. Despite what struggling Killer players are saying, they dont lose games because they play against an SWF. 99% of SWFs dont even play in a way that they benefit from being in an SWF in a significant way. And if someone plays against an SWF which is really, really strong, they would have probably lost against them as Solos anyway.
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solo isn't getting punished for playing with swf. the debuff is just regular balance for SWF. a modification to the games balance.
if someone plays against an SWF which is really, really strong, they would have probably lost against them as Solos anyway.
No. Not necessary. That is why the conversion is about debuff SWF. Even developer themselves admit that 4 man SWF and 3 man escape more often then Solo. MomoSeventh Played Blight for 2000 wins, Only to lose to 4 man SWF. This loss would have not been possible apart from SWF.
I am not saying that Survivor globally or SWF should be nerfed but SWF does win more on average. Like with any change, it is a blanket change. it is more important to buff killer from lower end of spectrum to the level of dredge's PTB changes than focus on blanket changes but some blanket changes don't hurt for under performing aspects of the game like Gen-kicking or spreading hook for 3rd/4th hook after hooking first 2 survivors.
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solo isn't getting punished for playing with swf. the debuff is just regular balance for SWF. a modification to the games balance.
If SWF would get a debuff of 20% repair speed to each member, the Solo-player would also be punished, because they play with 3 people who all repair 20% slower. So if one of the SWF-members is at a Gen, they will take 108 seconds to complete a Gen instead of 90 seconds.
When you have to play with those people who have Debuffs, how is this not punishing for yourself as well, even if you are Solo?
I dont think it is that hard to understand.
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the 20% debuff is off-set by SWF being more efficient at the game. your teammate are suppose to be better/stronger because they're a swf. The goal of the changes is to reduce escape rate to 49% →40% to be in line with soloq.I highly doubt this is actual escape for reference, i think strong swf escape way more than that vs most of killer cast but anyway. we're just using a number showcase the goal.
When you have to play with those people who have Debuffs, how is this not punishing for yourself as well, even if you are Solo?
I wouldn't consider a punishment as soloq player. i'd consider a balance change for SWF where SWF has 112 charges to complete generators just like 80 →90 charge change. Me as solo player would stay at 90 charges.
Like i said, i am not really for this type of change because it creates target prioritization for killer. Like i want to now target soloq players because of repair efficiency+weaker player/weak link of the team and ignore swf even more then what it currently is. I'd rather that soloq have bond-level aura reading and if solo survivor is speed-running the game too hard, then perhaps starting buff killer in some way.
I am not opposed said changes, but i think it is different route to balancing.
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This is all academic because SWFs don't have a guaranteed advantage.
People can simply play with their friends and yet not be very good at the game. People can play with their friends and spend their time goofing around or talking about other stuff and end up playing worse than they would solo.
You're punishing these people for simply playing with their friends, making the game experience worse for those who are simply trying to enjoy a multiplayer game. That's only going to drive people away.
The SWFs that pose a supposed balance problem are a subset of the overall groups of SWFs, not all of them.
Not to mention, you're targeting gen repair times of all things. You're specifically targeting gen efficiency, which is not something you need voice chat to optimise. Anyone with good gamesense can repair gens efficiently if they're solo, particularly now we have the survivor HUD action icons.
We've seen the killer equivalent in 2v8 now. Would you say the same there? Should killer premades have a -10% penalty to their movement speed if they queue up together? Or should survivors in 2v8 get 20% faster repairs if the killers are a premade?
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Like many others have said over the years….Let's start with making kindred basekit.
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Wanting to nerf friends because they play together an online game is just very sad thinking.
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Killers and survivors are not friends.
It's quite normal to balance the game by nerfing advantageous survivors, especially SWFs.
At least in other games.0 -
If u are really good with the killer ur playing with, SWF will be perfectly balanced.
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Other games nerf things that are advantageous but don't actually harm the experience of playing with friends. No game that I know of punishes people for playing with their friends.
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No. Punishing people for playing with friends in a "not a competitive game" has and always will be a terrible idea.
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2-3 man SWFs don’t actually have much of an advantage. 4-man SWFs are better but still below 50%. And they’re so rare it doesn’t seem worth it to do anything at all to limit them. Additionally SWF is pretty much what keeps survivors playing this game at all. The same people crying for SWF to be eliminated, restricted, or nerfed in some way would be the same ones making “wHy DoEs No OnE pLaY sUrViVoR?” threads with a shocked pikachu face once SWF is gone. Clueless and ridiculous.
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No best solution is to just tighter the matchmaking. If swf is very good and escapes majority of times they should face more nurses and blights. SoloQ players who struggle should face more weaker killers. Also swf who is not good should face weaker killers. Better matchmaking is all that is needed.
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What an awful idea.
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Like a year and a half back or so they tightened the matchmaking up significantly. The result was longer queue times for most players, and the sweatier players complained when they only got sweatier players to go against. The loudest complaining came from streamers who started to get burned out due to stressful match after stressful match repeatedly.
So the skill levels started to balance out some, but they didn't like it. And as for queue times, each and every time community gets asked whether they want faster queues or quality matchmaking, the resounding answer is always for faster queues.
So basically players do not want to wait, want fairish trials, but not back to back sweating either. I don't envy the devs figuring that one out. 😕
Imo the best way to improve matchmaking is to continue to work through the reasons players lobby shop & dodge. When players leave lobbies the awful backfilling happens. The longer people wait the worse it gets, until the system just grabs whoever and throws them in. Maybe it's no lobbies at all, I'm not sure. Not showing Prestiges should help some.
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It doesnt even matter what nerfs you oppose on swf (which you shouldnt do. SWF shouldnt exist but now that its here, people shouldnt be punished just because they play with friends in a group.)
But the fact they can communicate is the strong thing. And you wont ever be able to nerf that.0 -
If you think that communication is the strong thing for Survivors, you are just so wrong. Put the same Survivors who play in an SWF together without Voice Comms and you will roughly have the same results.
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How so?
Because swf is strongest when they KNOW when the killer is approaching and they just get away early enough so the killer cant catch up. That only works so perfect with voice comms.1 -
On a personal level, I'd be thrilled with a game solely based around soloq because that's all I play as survivor.
Realistically, that's never going to happen. The only chance it ever could have happened to treat SWF and soloq differently was when SWF was introduced. maybe then it could have been done without player anger, there's no chance at this point.
BHVR also isn't seeking a perfectly balanced game. As it is, you can do things like run double Iri, use map offerings, etc. if you really want to. If they aren't concerned with such things, people playing together doesn't seem to be that big of a leap.
MMR could be tighter, but that has limits on what it can do.
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hold on a sec are you a survivor main taking the killers side?
if so thats nice of you thank you for being one of the nice ones
but even as a killer i gotta disagree with balancing around the one over the many so i say balance it to solo Q survs personally
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Absolutely not. We've seen swf teams have slightly better escape rates not because of communication, but because it means those survivors are probably just better overall. Gotta remember that people playing swf together are usually more dedicated DBD players than average solo ques.
Swf teams are not this unbeatable boogey man everyone thinks they are. Punishing team play would kill this game.
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We've seen the killer equivalent in 2v8 now. Would you say the same there? Should killer premades have a -10% penalty to their movement speed if they queue up together? Or should survivors in 2v8 get 20% faster repairs if the killers are a premade?
There is no real proof that 2vs8 killer is imbalanced. If anything, i think the problem exists in reverse. 2vs8 killer is too weak when NOT playing SWF killer because they're not using advantage of 2 killers. That is one of the reasons why 2vs8 had so much huntress because non-swf killers was like 1vs8 +1vs8 rather 2vs8. Lone gunner type killers in my opinion will end up being more popular because they don't require any teamplay or team synergy to be effective. this is detachment from original conversation.
You're punishing these people for simply playing with their friends, making the game experience worse for those who are simply trying to enjoy a multiplayer game. That's only going to drive people away.
No, It is balancing specific type of gameplay mode. your not being punishment because in practice, SWF might still be more advantageous to play even with said drawback. SWF won't be massive advantage with no downside.
Not to mention, you're targeting gen repair times of all things. You're specifically targeting gen efficiency, which is not something you need voice chat to optimise. Anyone with good game-sense can repair gens efficiently if they're solo, particularly now we have the survivor HUD action icons.
I disagree. there would be no statistic difference in escape rates if it did not provide an advantage or any posts regarding nerfing SWF. SWF has faster generators because it plays macro game more efficiently then solo. The combination of many stronger macro elements means that they spend less time healing, more-time pre-running, less time running into pallet dead-zones & teammates make them more efficient at doing generator objective by not running killer into generators. it is that all those aspects of the game are complicated so it is easier to simplify this and just weaken a global variable in generator speed.
someone upset that SWF /= free wins.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
If the players are good, you dont really need communication. Then everyone knows what they are doing. Like, you dont need to tell me how to play the game, I have almost 10k hours. Yet, I only play in a 2man-SWF, simply because I enjoy playing with a friend (and having at least one person to rely on is nice).
And this is the main strength of SWF - filtering out the bad teammates. You basically lower the RNG of your teammates, in SoloQ you can have awesome Mates in one game and in the next game the Survivors you play with dont know if they play DBD or Minecraft.
For example, at some point we played with a friend of my SWF-Mate who is a Streamer. So he was not in our Discord Call, yet we escaped more often, because that guy is a really good player and we removed one RNG-factor (a potential bad teammate).
But overall, most SWFs players encounter dont care too much and just want to play with friends. So while they communicate, they will most likely not communicate in a way that it will significantly boost the escape rates.
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Did you even take a look at the latest statistics? Or are just one of those SWF-haters?
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I think the the biggest advantage of SWF isn't the comms, which in most groups never use it to its fullest potential.
It's the midigating of the rng aspect of solo queue. You know if your mates are doing challenges. You know that they'll likely not leave you behind, or get to second stage needlessly, or sandbag recklessly, things like that.
Much of what makes solo queue so rough is gone when you can know something of your mates, their strengths and weaknesses and tendencies. All of this I feel matters more than calling out killer locations and what perks they're running.
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SWF does not noticeably change escape rates for Survivors unless they are a 4 man at the highest play level. SWF is not the issue.
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that also makes alot of sense, yes. Maybe this combined with the fact that call outs are simply easyer through voice coomms, makes the whole picture why SWF is so much stronger than soloQ, as these things are often more layered.
I agree3 -
All this would ensure is they'll all bring gen perks and smash them out even faster to compensate. Then everyone will complain even moreso about gen progression perks until they're nerfed and solo q will suffer
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Well I don't get it why listen to streamers over most players. They should definetely had it more harder I see them mostly sweating as their life on line well as it's their job. They can always start to play more chill and get to MMR bracket where they suppose to be.
But probably problem streamers has their own community who defend them. Myself I don't find appealing watch someone else play. I certainly would not watch players who can't handle facing equally skilled opponents. That makes them actually bad at the game.
I do find most players would like having better matchmaking over short queques it's just loud minority who complains. I think lobby shopping should be made punishable. 3 minute ban like tcm did is good solution. Probably the lobby should be just hide entirely.
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If you struggle with killer in 2024 that's a personal problem it's literally never been easier for me, for everyone that has your opinion there are an equal amount of killer mains who share my opinion that if you made this game any easier it would be flat out boring to play unless both sides were given sizable buffs for more fun, I'm literally playing killers like Freddy, wraith, onryo, clown and demo still winning most my matches because nurse, blight, oni, or billy isnt fun for me anymore when you can end a match in like 2 minutes and half the team dcs when you down someone in the first 25-30 seconds, what would even be the point in playing when I could just stack slowdowns on top of the debuff you're suggesting and sleepwalk my way to a win?
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My issue with splitting the queues isn't just not likely having enough players to reasonably fill them both. It's how would we keep the sweats out of the casual area, who would roll in there looking to stomp and pillage? What incentives would be enough to make anyone pick a much harder mode willingly? I don't think shards or even cosmetics would be sufficient.
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Let's please keep the conversation civil and constructive, even if we are disagreeing. Thank you!
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