Survivors Giving Up Epidemic
I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this but it genuinely feels impossible to play 75% of solo queue matches anymore because people are just instantly giving up and letting the Killer hook them and then they give up on hook. I have no idea why this has gotten so bad recently but it's not even just Killers that are annoying or easily prone to 3 gen anymore, I was playing against a Bubba who didn't even have engravings or chili and was running zero slowdown and all three of my teammates just ran up to him and gave up at the start of the match. There was zero interaction between us and the Killer prior to this, they just didn't feel like playing against Bubba, one of the most inoffensive Killers to go against in the game in my opinion.
I really don't know how to solve this other than just disabling the DC penalty and making giving up on first hook a bannable offense, because the only reason people are doing this is to dodge the DC penalty. I understand some people don't want the DC penalty to be removed since it'd leave certain killers like Skull Merchant, Nurse, and Knight with almost entirely bot lobbies almost every game, but solo queue is genuinely unplayable as it is right now. People are giving up against some of the most inoffensive, weak Killers in the game for almost always zero justifiable reason. People who don't want to play a match aren't going to one way or another. Either they DC and give your team a bot and maybe some semblance of a fighting chance with said bot(s) or they give up on hook and screw their entire team over. And right now, things have gotten so bad that it's almost always the latter and never the former.
Either way, something has to change with this. This epidemic has gotten really bad, it's left solo queue in a significantly worse state than it was a few years ago.
Comments
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Just yesterday, I played 5 solo ques games, all of which had the first hooked survivor give up on hook immediately. I then took a break.
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idk, if it's that wide spread it seems like an issue with how the survivor match experience is rather than an issue with the players
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I mean when people are just giving up outright at the very start after zero interaction with the Killer so far this clearly isn't the case. Obviously it's a problem with the playerbase but we're not able to fix that directly. The point of my post is really just I'd rather have no DC penalty and have bots for teammates so I can maybe still escape rather than someone just instantly giving up and being forced to play with 2 (or less) teammates because someone didn't feel like playing.
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They need to make it so you can't suicide on hook from the first stage. It allows you to leave the game while circumventing the DC penalty.
I know it won't solve every instance of people giving up, but allowing penalty free ways of leaving the game quickly is basically encouraging it at that point.
Honestly, I think a good amount of it is entitlement. People getting upset that the match won't be absolutely perfect for them and then immediately calling it quits.
In a lot of my killer games people just immediately give up from the get go for zero reason. I'm not camping, tunneling or running 4 slowdowns or anything, they just immediately give up for no discernable reason.
Maybe it's because they don't like the killer I'm playing? Even then it's not like I'm a Skull Merchant main, I think I've had someone go next at 5 gens on every single killer in the roster at this point. I roll my eyes every time it happens.
It's probably one of the biggest things weighing down on my experience as a Survivor, and the only way to guarantee it doesn't happen is to 4 stack. Even 3 stack games can be ruined by the random tapping out early.
It feels like I'm spinning a roulette wheel as to if I'll have a full team for the majority of the game. It's so frustrating.
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imo it's a symptom of the state of solo q but not the problem
solo q is not fun. the odds are stacked against you in solo q and in my exp it's mostly due to your teammates. This is due to the lack of comms and just the overall lack of trust/confidence that your teammates know what to do and when to do it or what not to do. It's cyclical and I have to think that others, just like me, just get exhausted and just say f some matches and want to go next
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That what you have when you allow to your players to throw matches without any punishment. I don't think any other PvP game be like "Yeah, just throw it match in a trashcan for 4 other players and try to have fun in another match. Or maybe throw another one. Or two. Or hundred. We don't care.".
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It could be the killers you’re playing as, it could be survivors burnt out, it could be survivor pessimism. Whatever the cause, making the game more miserable for survivors isn’t going to change it. You just can’t force players to play out a game they feel hopeless about.
And Skull Merchant isn’t the only killer survivors dislike facing. A lot of them are overtuned in the eyes of survivors now (Hillbilly, Leatherface, Singularity, and more).
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I think all this would accomplish would just be extended periods of people giving up, this wouldn't deter people at all. They'd just go AFK after they get hooked and not do anything for the rest of the match and we're left with the same problem.
Sorry but I'm going to sound like Mathieu Cote for a second, but if it's not fun why queue up to begin with? If you're not having fun with the game, why not just play Killer or a different game entirely? You're not being forced to play the game, it sounds like your time would be better spent playing something that you actually enjoy instead of ruining matches for everyone else and perpetuating your own misery. Nothing personal intended, obviously.
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Ok.
So the devs have made the game an unfun slog for enough of the player base that the game is starting to shatter.
"Let's punish them" doesn't solve any of the root issues here, and is a great way to kill the game.
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If you're burnt out and pessimistic, don't play the game. Go uninstall and do something else. You shouldn't be able to leave the game early without a penalty.
Just because you don't like the killer you're matched with doesn't mean you should ruin it for the other 4 players. That's a selfish way to think.
I don't think so. Making it more difficult would deter people. There would still be people who go AFK, but I think there would be less people giving up overall.
I've had people who are currently giving up, but then I go save them before they miss their skill checks, and they continue playing like normal.
Path of least resistance, and all that.
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Wow …I literally signed on to post this. Anybody else notice that blood points bonus has been majority survivor? So im East Coast, it used to be survivor bonus right up until dinner then be all killer bonus. After 2V8, it's been nothing but survivor bonus with very little killer bonus. Which is a shame because survivor is so miserable to play these days because it's boring it keeps getting nerfed and The Killers keep getting stronger with all kinds of crazy add-ons etc. add that it's just not fun to play solo and most people just don't play anymore , I can't help but think survivor is just going to fade out to where nobody wants to play. Bring back 2v8! At least that was fun as survivor
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The killer main answer to survivor umbrage is always to punish the survivors. It’s thoughtless and myopic.
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Exactly my point. We're not going to be able to fix Survivor sentiment overnight, the best thing we could possibly do is just let people get out of the match easily and quickly through DCs whilst still letting people who want to actually play out the match have a fighting chance with the bot that replaces them. DC penalties made sense when we didn't have bots, but recently all it feels like is the best way to completely ruin the solo queue Survivor experience.
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I guess my question would be: How do you actually implement that without just killing self-unhooks all together and being forced to rework perks like Deliverance, Wicked, and Slippery Meat? Because if you just make it so self-unhook attempts don't diminish the Survivor hook state bar, people will just start spamming self-unhook until they eventually get it or go struggle phase. There wouldn't be any reason not to at that point.
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I love how killers always go to "punish survivors for DC or Suicide out" rather than fix the survivors issues. People don't do that for no reason…it's frustration over an unplayable, boring player mode. As a killer I get to switch my game play, as survivor I get to do gens, unhook and repeat... except that killers tunnel, camp hooks etc preventing a lot of game play. They respawn hooks, make gens longer etc etc. What have they done to nerf tunneling And camping?....nothing. FYI, for the kids that like to twist my words....I neither condone suiciding out nor DC. I've screen shot this for the record... I just don't want another ban.
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I'm not exactly sure. I think a decent starting idea would be to halve the sacrifice penalty when attempting escape. So if you try to Kobe 3 times by default, you still have 30 seconds on your first stage.
There might be underlying issues with that idea, though, I'm not a game designer and I don't have the ability to test them.
What I will say, though, is you'd only really have to rework Slippery Meat and Up the Ante. Deliverance and Wicked could give the ability to self-unhook inherently, even if it isn't a base mechanic anymore. Kind of like how the anti-facecamp lets you self-unhook on second stage, even if that's not a thing you can normally do.
So if worst comes to worst, and they do have to remove the base self-unhook, I don't think there'd be too much collateral damage in terms of other content in the game.
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it was meant more as a general statement as to the state of solo q. I did not say the game was not fun, but solo q, which is what I primarily play, is just bad for anyone who plays alone (which is most). Suggesting players just drop the game is not really addressing the problems within solo q or matchmaking of which there are plenty. You don't queue up knowing what's going to happen although you have a pretty good idea based on history, but you hope for the best.
I don't go into a match ready to kms or dc, I go into a match ready to play and help the team so that some of us can get out at least. I don't mind not escaping, I mind the entire team losing because I get hooked and see one guy walking back and forth, injured, scared to play the game til someone finds him and heals him. I mind the entire team losing because 1 guy with a flashlight made it a 3 v 1 because he did nothing but spectate every chase just to get one save all game. Or when one guy goes 2nd stage while the other 2 stand there unwilling to save him against an m1 killer.
maybe these moments seal the match, maybe they don't, but they definitely give you a good idea of how your team plays and you can make a pretty informed decision that while the match is winnable, it won't happen with your team because they do not understand how to play beyond hold W and drop every pallet. A few consecutive games of that and yeah, I'm not gonna blame anyone or myself for just giving up in a later match.
make improvements to the solo q experience and I bet you'll see players DC and give up at a lesser rate
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Why is this a "killer main this, survivor main that" thing?
I think it's a reasonable expectation that when people ready up and play a multiplayer game, that they have to play the match to its conclusion. That's why disconnect/abandon penalties are a thing.
The only reason it's focused on Survivors is that they're the only role with a way to leave the match early outside of disconnecting. If Killer players could open the gates at 5 gens, that wouldn't be good for the game either.
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I mean I totally get where you're coming from, teammates like that are miserable. But there's just genuinely no way to make MMR or any sort of semi-functional matchmaking system actually work in DBD. There's way too many variables and the system is extremely black and white at the moment that more or less just encourages ratting until you're the last survivor and then escaping through hatch rather than actually trying to do gens and escape through the gates. The problems you listed aren't fixable because they're problems with the playerbase itself not the game, the best thing we can do is make it easy to go next whilst not screwing over teammates who still want to play it out.
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Because it’s largely killer mains who suggest BHVR address survivor grievances are through punitive measures. Survivors don’t typically ask that BHVR makes the game worse for them.
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Killers can and do just go stand in a corner until the survivors leave. Don't even have to be at your keyboard for that, and .. oh look, zero consequences there too.
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But they do, though.
I see a lot of people saying that the killer should be "punished" for playing in a certain way, mainly around tunneling/camping, etc.
Measures have been implemented in order to "punish" the killer for playing in these ways. For example, you're punished for hitting someone too soon after they're unhooked, or you're punished for facecamping with a free unhook.
Are these bad measures? Absolutely not. They make things fairer in general. In game design, measures have to be taken to disincentivise certain actions in gameplay that are considered to be unhealthy. This is one of those cases. BHVR needs to take a measure to stop people from leaving the game early just because it doesn't necessarily favour them.
If playing a DBD match to its completion is considered a punishment to you, then I sincerely suggest that you do something else with your time. All that's being asked is that people play the game that they readied up for.
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I mean sure this sucks too but it's not like the Killer has any teammates that completely has their experience ruined by them doing this, in addition to it just being a free win for the Survivors.
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I must have been unclear: I said survivors don’t ask BHVR to make the game worse for them, as in survivors. Survivor mains aren’t asking for longer gens, or to lose the ability to self unhook so they’re in timeout with nothing to do longer.
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maybe you can't outright fix it but you can certainly mitigate some of the solo q issues to make it less of a daunting experience
optional voice comms? scroll wheel comms? loadout visibility in lobby? teleport hook like 2v8? optional ability to queue up with members of your game? the list goes on, test some of these types of changes instead of churning out chapter after chapter.
also, no punishment is going to deter someone who does not want to play. If they do not want to play a match out, they will not play the match out
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Maybe, but this is far less common than Survivors giving up on the hook. I don't think the Killer going AFK in a corner is good for the game either.
Even if you make it impossible to give up on hook, Survivors can still technically just stand still until the killer kills them. However, it's generally less likely to happen. Doing nothing is boring, and the human brain likes stimulus.
I'm pretty sure they also made it so that it auto-disconnects you as a Killer if you're AFK for an extended period of time. Not sure if that only applies from the beginning, though.
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Then I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make? Are you saying that Killer players DO ask for the game to be made worse for themselves?
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Going on 1st and DC is typically never the right thing to do, but I do think it’s indicative of a bigger problem with the current state survivor is in right now. Many people are quick to agree that yes, tunneling/camping/slugging isn’t fun, yes the meta is kind of stale and yes, solo is not in a great place right now but it doesn’t matter because X,Y,Z (which the xyz are often issues that killers have faced in the past or are facing now). And while X,Y,Z, (the struggles of killers) are very important and should not be written off, neither should the struggles of survivors.
We can all speculate on balance and what is “fair vs unfair” but at the end of the day it’s a game, and it’s important to consider what that game has to offer both roles. In my opinion that’s been formed from myself and others personal experience, statistics provided by BHVR, posts on the forums and the kind of discussions that happen from those posts— there does not seem to be much of an incentive to play survivor at all right now. It’s simply not as fun.
There are high chances of encountering “unfun/unfair” play styles that are used so frequently and are so impactful that perks were designed specifically to counter them, you run the risk of being much more skilled than the killer but still not surviving, your survival depends on your team but you do not win as a team, there is no comeback mechanic in place, and of course the biggest being you are statistically proven to lose more. etc.
Just like with perks, when playing either role in the game It’s important to consider the value you get out of the energy, time and effort you put in. Right now many survivors feel it’s not worth it. They shouldn’t be playing at all if they’re just going to give up. But I also think it speaks volumes that when a large part of the player base feels that not playing is better than playing, it isn’t seen as a concern—but as an entitlement issue in need of a solution that requires the survivor role to be even more restrictive.
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I definitely see it more than I did a year ago, but not enough that it affects my games. I'm sick as a dog at the moment so playing alot more than I usually do since I'm stuck on the couch, and yesterday I only had 2 games where a team mate gave up - only 1 was early game though, the other mid game - and one where I did (2 Sables convinced the GF to farm, and i don't enjoy farming so they let me leave. Not sure that counts). I also had two killer DCs, and one killer give up (went afk).
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Unfun slog is what happened now due to every Feble or Kataela player feel completely free to kill themselves on hook and go to next ruin another game, then after 10 matches like these go here and cry about poor soloq and its escape rate.
Unfun slog is when another Feng give up at first hook, then turns out she gave up to baby Doctor I run for 3 gens with 2 people on gens and we lost anyway, when it clearly could be a win even with bot instead of Feng.
This hardcore desire of die hard survivors to defend people throwing matches and continue to cry about "soloq state" is what I will never get behind.3 -
And literally none of those things get better if you ignore any of the root causes and are just out to punish survivor players.
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It's not common, but the typical "killer response" on the forums to "this game sucks" is to threaten the devs with crap like "the game requires 1 killer to function for every 4 survivors, so give us what we want or we all quit".
When survivors have a ######### experience, there's a common sentiment of "the players just need to suffer more, that'll fix it".
The entire point of me bringing up the afk killer is that no one has ever looked at that scenario and gone rabid and insisted that the killer should be banned, audited, and/or swatted for it. And yet we have basically that sentiment here in this thread for survivors. It's ridiculous.
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That's just not true at all, survivors LITERALLY CONSTANTLY ask for the game to be worse for killers… stop making it a war between sides, there's obvious bias from you.
We also know BHVR arent going to massively change the base game mechanics around how hooks work to stop people suiciding, so there's really nothing else realistic to suggest except more punitive action and a change to whats considered a bannable offense in the hopes that the deterrent is enough to stop it. It only becomes a problem for the people who really shouldnt be playing the game at all if they can't see a match to completion.
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Unfortunately, that's a side effect of over buffing killer and caring more about making sure killer have a high killrate, ensuring they are a power role over match quality and removing skill expansion from survivors. Whenever you ensure killers win a majority even against competent survivors you can't expect people to take the game seriously anymore.
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English is not my first language but I think you understand me. I feel you’re trolling me.
I am stating that it is killers who request BHVR makes the game worse for survivors, and this has consequently led to the issues OP outlines. Your suggestion to survivors not wanting to play is to punish those survivors, thereby making the game even worse for survivors. Because punishment (removal of self unhooks, for example) against any survivor affects all survivor. Survivors do not ask of BHVR that the game becomes worse for survivor. Killers ask of BHVR that the game becomes worse for survivor.
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Not what I stated. Read it again. And ready follow up comments if you still lack clarity.
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Root causes? More than half of them are just "I don't love to go against # killer". Tell me how you want to solve this? Delete killer role is fantastic way for you, I know, but what if we need they to stay? I hate going against Spirit from the bottom of my heart, but I don't remember I throw any game without trying in 5 years.
I had a lot of teammates give up on hook in the middle of really close amazingly interesting games for 0 real reasons. Root cause here is many survivors hate even trying to survive and prefer gen sim to anything else, how are you about solving this?
Truth is that community is a spoiled child and now, of course, any normal measures will be painful. But solving this "root causes" is also not an option, because we already have survivors throwing matches for any tiny reason, and no matter how much you will try to solve any of them, of course there will always be new ones. This is simply what spoiled child is. And sooner or later he needs to be told "enough is enough".5 -
I don't think anyone knows what you mean tbh. Why would anyone ask for the game to be worse for themselves?
Killers are going to ask for more punitive action because its the only realistic option there is. Changing and balancing game mechanics on the whims of people who clearly dont want to play the game and quit for literally the most pettiest of reasons is a silly idea.
The post above by fussy pretty much sums it up perfectly. Its a survivor attitude problem.
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I don't think anyone wants Survivors to be swatted over giving up. They just want them to play the game they queued up for.
If you abandon the game early, then you should get a DC penalty, for either side.
Again, if you think that playing a match to it's conclusion is suffering, then I'd advise finding a different thing to do.
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Its true they buffed Killers too much because Survivor used to be more powerful, so in trying to balance it they went too far the other way. Killer mains should be careful saying "just don't play the game" because pretty soon they'll be waiting in half hour que times or playing against all bots.
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I'm not trolling you, I just didn't get your point. Your explaination in this post is a lot more clear, though. Thank you.
My suggestion for Survivors who don't want to play, is to not to play. Either do or don't, but don't try and do both. Don't "oh I don't like this killer or these perks so I'm going to quit THESE matches against insert half the killer roster here".
Qutting the game early is making it worse for everyone in the lobby. ESPECIALLY the other Survivors. You're basically handing the killer a free win. It prevents a fun and fair match for the killer (which believe it or not, some people value over just purely winning), and ruins all hope of Survivors escaping, unless the match is exceptionally unbalanced.
Removing the ability to quit without a penalty won't make the games worse. It'll make them better, as you'll actually have a fighting chance to keep a full team for the entirety of the match.
Not having the ability to leave the game instantly is not a punishment. If you think having to play DBD is a punishment, then please for your own sake find a different game to play.
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I have around 2k hours and it has never been as bad as it's been the last week or two. I think it's post 2v8 syndrome. The people that liked it want to continue playing but hate 1v4 and they're taking that out on everyone else. It's the only legitimate explanation I can come up with. My SoloQ Survivor games have become completely unplayable and I'm noticing it from the Killer side as well. The only teams that even play the game anymore are just SWFs. I'm actually happy to run into them now whereas I used to dread them, because at least I'll actually get to play the game compared to everyone throwing and giving up in 2 minutes. It's insane.
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I don't think there's much we can do, a player that doesn't want to play will simply not play, if we remove suicides on hook, ppl will just AFK (just like killers do when they don't like the match and don't want to face the DC penalty). And i'd argue that having an AFK teammate could be even worse than having none (and as a killer i can't stand the afk crow sound).
Removing dc penalties unfortunately would make ppl give up even more since SOME ppl still try as long as they are not on hook lol.
The only fix would be to adress the reasons that makes ppl not want to play…as long as they are valid 😂1 -
I think something a lot of people are missing here is the fact that a lot of the grievances with solo queue that lead people to give up aren't fixable because they're not issues with the game itself, it's a playerbase issue. Sure, I agree, BHVR could and should absolutely do more for basekit Survivors when it comes to things like slugging, tunneling, and camping. But giving up because your teammates are bad isn't really something that's fixable, that's just the hand the game dealt you. I'm not saying you have to try your absolute hardest when you get teammates like that, but there shouldn't be any scenario where you're able to just instantly give up and screw all 3 of them over regardless of how well they're playing.
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If you've played for 5 years then you undoubtedly remember a time where letting go on hook wasn't the issue it apparently is now. So do you think survivors are a hive mind who all suddenly woke up one day and decided to be spoiled brats for giggles? Something has fundamentally changed in the game and honestly, the only people who would know what are the devs. They'd have all the stats. I also recall you posting not long ago a quite high escape and kill rate (80% and 90% or something to that degree if I'm recalling correctly). It stood out to me because that's quite the outlier. It seems team mates letting go on hook doesn't impact the outcome of your games much, so is it just the fun factor they're taking away from you? We all know the common sentiment of this playerbase ("I'm not responsible for your fun"), is it time for that to change?
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I remember when dc'ing didn't have the penalty and I saw it far less than I do now. The problem back then is some people would play out a full match to a win, then dc in the exit gates to drop their pips and ranking. So they could have easier matches. I don't think the pips or MMR work that way with dcs now though.
Back then just 2 survivors could accomplish too much though. With all the resources, old perks, vacuum pallets, etc… Because of that the matches didn't feel as hopeless as they do now. You could afford getting matched with a couple teammates who were lower ranked or not as skilled. As you still had a chance to win.
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just got on to play and first match I die on first hook after trying to save teammate while our 3rd was healthy at gate just standing there. Traded, both teammates ran to opposite gates instead of resetting and just left
killer camped his first kill in basement but it was an easy 3 out that turned into a free 2kthese are the types of players you’re suggesting we finish our matches out for btw
culmination of bad matchmaking and cheesy mechanics that allow a killer to secure a kill that way and will scare off survivors from attempting a save because they assume they’ll just be camped too
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I didn't post anything about my escape rate or kill rate, I have my profile open, you are free to check it before starting some strange conversation with made-up information.
What about game: game no doubt changed. It became really hard for new survivors and entry threshold is really high for both survivors and killers players. It's not bad thing, and never was, because in a game where both sides compete in skill, you don't expect to win a lot without good amount of experience. But somehow people believe that they should escape a lot with only knowledge in their heads is how to run to yellow and proc Lithe.
We can go far into philosophy, reasoning why this is happening, but I think main reason is skill floor raised up a lot for survivors and many simply don't reach this level. It's good for the game health, since skill based game finally started to ask to have some skill, but bad for majority, since most players don't want to put too much efforts into this game. It's endless question about balancing between "oh party game for majority" and "game where skill matter and rewarded".
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This also massively affects kill rate statistics as while DCs aren’t counted towards them, there isn’t really a way to tell these early leavers so it will show as a kill in the statistics as well as making the game pretty much unwinnable for the remaining survivors leading to another 2 or 3 kills.
It’s why balancing around kill rate doesn’t work, as the statistics are too easily manipulated.
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Leatherface? Everybody enjoys going against Leatherface. Replace him with Nurse.
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