Killers could stand to struggle a bit more imo.
Genuinely don't see a reason for BL1 and new wiggle.
Maps got balanced pretty hard minus a few outliers(that are balanced out by other outliers,) no one takes Hope anymore and MFT is bad, I don't see why killers still should get BL1.
I forget the original justification for reworking wiggle but with hooks respawning I don't see why we still need new wiggle. If a killer wants to greed for a scourge hook or hooking near a gen there should be more risk.
Comments
-
Maps aren't balanced though. They were balanced but BHVR keeps touching them and they broke again. A lot of maps either have too many pallets or not enough and so e of the new jungle gyms are very questionable.
28 -
How is "new wiggle" any different to "old wiggle" apart from not having to destroy your A and D keys?
38 -
Maps aren't even closed to balanced. According to the stats killers hit bloodlust tier one in over 70% of games. The only reason it's not higher is because of the perk Rapid Brutality and certain killer who don't get BL hardly at all, like Doc and Clown. Make killers 120% and we can get rid of Bloodlust altogether.
18 -
According to the stats killers hit bloodlust tier one in over 70% of games
Source?
I also doubt that there's any way to discern if bloodlust is needed by map design or if the killer is playing in ways that bloodlust is more common simply from one stat.
For examples: Is this just killers respecting pallets too much unnecessarily? Or is this just a case of things like skull merchant drops a drone at every pallet and the only gameplay is to hold w, which basically forces bloodlust?
5 -
US consoles had to rotate our analog sticks I never want to go back to that
17 -
I don't think Bloodlust 3 is needed, but completely removing bloodlust is a huge nerf for some killers (basically any killer who has a moment without power no matter what) and new maps are not going to end well…
I would refuse to play Midwitch without blood lust. That's hold W simulator.
Hold W is already very strong thing to do against most killers and it would be way better without bloodlust.
Huntress/Trickster/Deathslinger on rock loops without bloodlust? You have nothing to do there.7 -
This is obviously just my experience and my opinion, but there has been a ripple effect as a result of simplifying killer play over the years. I often get 15-20 seconds from just standing a pallet as a survivor because killers absolutely refuse to risk a stun and try to bloodlust most unsafe tiles. It's how a lot of killers play. They stack 3 or 4 slowdowns and bloodlust it in chases.
5 -
My guess is this stats post.
From my reading that is 56%, the numbers aren't additive.
Which is actually less than I would have guessed as to count you only need BL1 to trigger for a brief instant one time in a game to count.
0 -
I feel like if there are maps that are great for killers and there are maps that are great for survivors then that's a good balance? I feel as though if every map was the same power level it would get boring fast.
My point is that there's not really any god loops and most maps are not bad for killer anymore, nor are there things like unlimited dead-hards, etc. Which were all justifications for Bloodlust getting buffed.
Hitting greats used to grant more wiggle progress.
4 -
My point is that there's not really any god loops and most maps are not bad for killer anymore, nor are there things like unlimited dead-hards, etc. Which were all justifications for Bloodlust getting buffed.When has bloodlust 1 been buffed? Maybe its not on the wiki, but looking at the wiki every change has been a nerf to bloodlust 1 and/or only impacted bl 2 / 3.
Generally, bloodlust seems like a central mechanic of the game at this point (in my opinion, a good one). I could see the argument for it getting a minor nerf, but doing away with it would be pretty big change.
Hitting greats used to grant more wiggle progress.I wouldn't call that the old system, the old system was the key mashing one.
8 -
As an M1 Main, we genuinely need bloodlust. There's enough Survivor chase perks to cause us issues, and enough of them stacked together means without Bloodlust or chase perks of our own, we struggle. And we can have four of these a match. On maps that could have too many pallets or areas we still cannot deal with without slugging, like Badham basement if the hooks do not spawn there.
I'm not sweaty, I wanna play Myers and have a shot at doing OK. I like low Terror Radius builds. I should be able to have a fair shot at winning on most maps running my low TR Myers without struggling to catch someone because of a bunch of stuff out of my control, because people like OP want higher level stronger Killers "to struggle more" so they can get their five gen loop compilation for TikTok.
We are seeing Killers hit BL 1 70% of the time. This catchup mechanic is currently so necessary it's being used as a crutch because most Killers just want to chase, but chasing too much means a loss against a decent team. But Killers want to chase, so what happens? Multiple gen slowdown to allow Killers to chase longer and also maybe do well. Because the game doesn't reward anything other than kills.As someone else stated, make BL occur sooner or make Killers 120% speed, THEN we can talk removing BL entirely. Until then it is a necessary evil for some Killers.
7 -
I don't think Bloodlust should get removed entirely, I just think it should be a lot more rare tbh. You have so many killers starting chases with playing for bloodlust.
2 -
Well, there are killers who can be completely without power for some time during the game.
Legion, Plague, Ghostface, Myers, Oni, Twins, Trapper, Vecna
Then specific loops for 110% killers.
So if bloodlust should not happen, then chases would need to be faster even without it and long periods of hold W couldn't exist.
There are simply killers, if survivor holds W, you will get bloodlust no matter what.
9 -
I could see maybe bloodlust being limited to certain killers. Killers like Myers who's power really doesn't do much to win a chase once started could keep it, while killers whose power SHOULD be helping can lose it. If your getting BL on Clown, that's a YOU issue.
2 -
Okay, but that doesn't sound like removing BL 1 as the step. Either increasing the time it takes to gain or reducing the speed boost.
Post edited by crogers271 on0 -
I've noticed the new map variants have favored the stronger killers more due to the more spaced layouts and weird tiles.
1 -
Because breaking the pallet gives 20 seconds of distance. Literally predrop 2 god pallets, shift+w to a corner, and if your team is actually doing gens, they'll finish 3 before you even get hooked.
10 -
Bloodlust is necessary. I don't think you realize how strong shift+w would become (hint: it's already the best tool a survivor has) if they got rid of bloodlust.
12 -
Yup but for some reason, even if they win 90% of their matches, you have big streamers like Trutalent saying the game is survivor sided. And a bunch of bots repeating the same thing behind them.
Theres nothing there. With what just happened to nemesis its just become a pattern of survivors kind of just there to laugh at. Like the hits you are getting with tentacle now, you may as well just give up in every match versus him.Load up your favorite killer, mindlessly win the majority of your matches and then come complain, even with a massive win ratio, that your killer needs unreasonable buffs. For whatever reason.
For reference I play legion and plague and have 0 issues. They are perfectly fine the way they are, even though some would argue about legion "just being m1 hur hurhur" needs buffs. And Plague I think black incense needs to be just deleted from the game.
But you wont find any self critical killers on any discussion thread anywhere. Its just… I have yet to see a person who plays killer call their favorite killer anything but underpowered. Youll never find people saying their killer is fine the way it is and you DEFINITELY will never find anyone saying their favorite killer is overpowered.12 -
I ended up getting stick drift on 2 controllers because of it
4 -
If the killer cant beat a strong 4 man than they will likely always be perceive as underpower. That the gold standard for a good amount of the killer players. I not sure why this is but this is a very popular mindset.
3 -
BL1 can still be necessary for some specific killers like legion on some maps like lerys if it spawns strong window rng, but there is no reason for BL2 and BL3 to exist.
0 -
There are so many Pallets that dropped are almost impossible to win a mindgame on them without BL1.
About maps… Macmillans are not Killer Sided - they are just not that unbalanced as other maps. Just an example.
Garden, Eyrie, Badham, Greenville, Gas Heaven, Groaning Storehouse, Nostromo, Toba Landing and more. All of these are Survivor sided. Give me an example of Killer Sided Map (maybe the new map from Vecna).
5 -
bloodlust is cancelled for most killers for using their chase powers.
bloodlust is a mechanic that specifically exists to give killers without chase powers an ability to chase survivors in maps that are still balanced for killers with chase powers.
11 -
I dont think that the amount of BL1-cases caused by Killers is higher than reaching BL1 "naturally".
But I have to say that over time I see more and more Killers who dont bother to mindgame anymore and just bloodlust a Loop, because most Loops are not really playable anymore once Bloodlust 1 is reached.
Which is a bad development.
5 -
BL1 is a pretty important equalising factor. Chase/mobility killers don't need it and don't use it, M1 killers do and it makes them more viable. It has nothing to no with map balance. You simply can't account for the disparity between chase powers like Wesker/Blight/Nurse, and slower killers like Trapper/Freddy/Dredge without it. Maps could be 100% perfectly balanced, and without BL you'd have nothing but Weskers because all the M1 killers would be impossible to play.
It is not intended for survivors to be able to loop killers indefinitely. It's a 4v1 game, the 1v1 scenario is supposed to be in the killers favour. If looping for 5 gens was reliable the game wouldn't work.
Wiggle is not meant to get you off before you get hooked. It would be pretty infuriating to play killer if half your downs never made it to a hook. It's only there to pressure the killer into going straight to a hook, or provide an avenue for a coordinated play using multiple survivors to deny the hook, after all you're spending repair time to deny the hook so it's a fair trade off.
11 -
This is all better than I could have said it and exactly true.
Survivors aren't supposed to win 1v1s. Period. You are not supposed to never go down and not supposed to win a 1v1. if you could the game would be unplayable for most Killers.
Wiggling is not a get out of jail free card. If you want it to be, there's perks to help with that. Wiggling is there to waste the Killer's time if they don't go to a hook, it's a way to prevent Killers from holding one Survivor hostage on their shoulder all round. It's not meant as anything more.
Survivors are not intended to beat the Killer. They are intended to avoid the Killer, by any means necessary, for long enough to do all the gens as a team and get out. You are not supposed to beat the Killer, because the Killer is meant to be stronger.
8 -
People forget Bloodlust is only a thing at all because there used to be infinites (and bloodlust was the temporary solution to those). Now that infinites aren’t a thing anymore, and especially since tiles & maps are much weaker—a trend we see continuing with each map update—I too believe bloodlust needs to be thoroughly examined.
I couldn’t care less about specific killers (like Legion or GF) unable to bloodlust down survivors, largely because the loops these survivors play on are much weaker than yesteryear anyway. And I think using m1 killers as a reason to justify busted mechanics that benefit killers (never see this logic applied to things for survivors) is a smokescreen for what people really mean but refuse to say: they want things that make the game easier for killers to remain in effect.
8 -
So what part or the game is supposed to be fun for the survivor in your opinion?
3 -
Bloodlust, in all of its tiers including Bloodlust 1, exists to serve two important functions in my opinion. I can't claim that these are the intended purposes of Bloodlust, I'm not psychic, but by my estimation the two useful functions Bloodlust provides are as follows:
- Insurance against infinites. Map design is better now than it used to be and I'm pretty sure there aren't any infinite loops in the game even disregarding BL, but it exists as a nice safety net in case that happens again. However, that's the less convincing reason, to me.
- It's part of the suite of mechanics that ensure no chase lasts forever. The killer moves faster than survivors at base, windows block if they're vaulted three times, and the killer starts moving faster still if the chase drags on too long. It's bad for everyone if a single chase lasts the whole match- save for maybe the survivor being chased. The killer's having a miserable time, and the other three survivors are all stuck doing generators and nothing else. The game's designed for chases to end, Bloodlust is one of the mechanics that nudges that into happening without it actually being free value for the killer- if you reach BL3 you're still at a massive negative even after getting a down.
For those reasons, Bloodlust has every reason to exist. I think some people get caught up imagining Bloodlust as a killer buff, and not a base mechanic- it should be considered something to keep in mind just as much as a used pallet should be kept in mind. You have to know it's there and play accordingly, as well as accepting that if the killer sticks on you, you will be downed eventually. That's a basic part of the game, not a flaw.
As to the wiggle system, I don't think either of the two buffs the new system has had are all that impactful. Sure, a hypothetical extra second shaved off the wiggle bar could be useful… but it didn't really result to much in practice. What we have is fine, it's not substantially different in any meaningful way.
7 -
Old wiggling was fun when you were popping off as a survivor and could spam the keys at the speed of light, but aside from that it could really be a chore. If I remember correctly, this was also about the time they swapped spamming Spacebar on second stage hook for simple skill checks, and I would never ever want that change reverted.
As for Bloodlust, I usually tend to see that procc on killers like Trapper and Freddy and whatnot, instead of Blight and Nurse, so I don't see why a blanket killer nerf that would mostly hurt the weaker members of the cast is a good idea.
4 -
The part where you play with your friends and it's actually a challenge to work as a team and win instead of being able to slap on 16 perks that all boost each other and easily four man out. I still have fun doing this even losing a bunch more as Survivor. Why do you and others need to win consistently to have fun? Or is this about BP gain, a totally separate issue altogether?
I want to be challenged as Survivor. I like hard games. It's sad to me that other Survivors do not.
4 -
1. maps are still terrible
2. Who cares about wiggle and hook spawns when hooks have become much stronger weapon for survivors to use than for killer.
6 -
I think they are referring to when Wiggling first got changed to Skill Checks and hitting Great Skill Checks would shave a full second off of Wiggling.
0 -
why are all of these complaining threads basically “the killer isn’t playing how I want them to play so let’s force them to play how I want them to play so that I can do what I want to do to them?” That’s absolutely ridiculous. I seriously feel like 90% of these absurd “suggestions” come from SWFs who aren’t happy when they can’t bully uninterrupted.
8 -
Really back at BL? Half the killers cant even get it thanks to powers.
7 -
BL1 usually is hit by M1 killers who have to chase survivors halfway across the map after Sprint Burst or Lithe before a survivor has to start using tiles.
If the goal is to make killers that aren't Blight, Hillbilly, Nurse, Wesker, Spirit, Oni, Huntress even weaker, then removing Bloodlust is a good way to do it.
7 -
Really? That was the best thing about wiggling. Unless you were trying to spin them at a 90mph or something, you just had to turn it in a slow, consistent circle. 1 or maybe 2 full rotations a second.
It always blew my mind that people were apparently breaking their controllers over this.1 -
Its funny because its basically a mid tier killer nerf
5 -
It would make Huntress even weaker too, considering 20% of the loops on each map are physically impossible to land a hatchet at because of her slow speed and windup time.(not to mention indoor maps) Not to mention another 20% of loops because you just have to catch up to pull the hatchet out and have time to throw it. She keeps bloodlust even when holding hatchets thankfully.
Make M1 killers 120%, everyone else 115% and get rid of bloodlust.
3 -
Bloodlust was a bandaid for poor map generation, as long as maps can generate poorly then its needed and yes they can still generate poorly. Outliers on one side don't matter since you don't need and won't get bloodlust on very killer sided bad map gens and outliers on the other side are almost the entire reason it exists. Some killers kits are just so mid that telling them to play without bloodlust is all but begging for stronger killers to be played instead since they didn't get bloodlust in the first place with power use.
Wiggle was just too overbearing to be played around reasonably on controller, pcs users can very easily counteract wiggling while console players can't, its still more effective than it used to be but it doesn't need another buff any time soon
2 -
This is wrong kind of. BL was added because of loop strength the were so many loops that killers couldn't do anything about and were pretty much infinites but real infinites still existed and where infinites because you couldn't get BL at those loops you would lose site of the survivor and lose chase no matter how you ran the loop.
BL is still absolutely a necessary evil as BHVR hasn't figured out how to design maps. Either they are all full of way to many strong loops that chain the whole map together. Or the new design is a billion crappie loops that you drop and run because they are unsafe.
3 -
haddonfield
0 -
Suffocation Pit is a big one. If you get the one that generates the window in the middle rather than at the end where the basement spawns, it is pretty much an infinite. Even when they throw the pallet if you do not have high movespeed the survivor can loop that window till entity blocker a majority of the time.
Infinites are so frustrating, free time sinks with no skill expression on the survivors side beyond holding W.3 -
This would just make the gap between low tier and high tier killers bigger. People already complain about every game being Wesker and Blight, removing blood lust would just make the killer variety even smaller.
Wiggling isn't supposed to be a free escape or even an extra chance to escape, it's simply to prevent the killer from basement hooking every game and controlling exactly where to hook someone. The extra second off wiggling had no impact in most games except for making SWF body blocking/sabo plays stronger which wasn't necessary. The current version is fine.
"Never see this logic applied to survivors"
How can you use M1 killers to justify broken stuff on survivors end?
8 -
Literally just had that variation today, Seven windows chained together back to back. Throwing it in with my map design rant video I'm about to do because these new map variations and reworks have been atrocious.
2 -
Skull Merchant is the Taylor Swift of DBD because no matter what the conversation is and whether or not it has anything to do with her in the slightest people will find a way to insert her into it just to hate on her
5 -
Well last time we tried to get rid of blood lust it was a complete DISASTER and not much of anything has changed from then. If anything BL is needed more just due to the amount of pallets that spawn for each map now since they moved onto making maps based around pallet gameplay like they said they would.
3 -
You could also pick artist or knight for this. Since you missed the point, which was survivors leaving loops means more "hold w" chases where bloodlust is likely to occur.
Killers can throw away bloodlust kicking pallets at loops, but can even accidentally get bl1 when the survivor "holds w". No pallets in open space means bl1 is effectively free.
I'm not sure why you seem offended by this, all I'm saying is that the gameplay of all 3 of these killers boils down to "leave the loop" is the only real counter to their m2. That's not controversial, it's just a fact.
3 -
But if I said I have fun losing on killer and I think killers should just enjoy the chase and playing a scary character even if theyre weak I'd be crazy right?
Acting like people are unreasonable for wanting to win without every match being a slog makes no sense.
4
