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The Decline of Survivor Game Quality Over Years
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
Comments
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First let’s start with the Good for the current session
I had a large amount of Killer variety. So that’s good.
There was an average of 1.54 group blood point offerings per game. Of course I was part of the 1 a lot of the time but at least that’s better BP than normal.
Only in 8% of the games did I see a Survivor DC when it was still possible to win the game. Of those games, I escaped 33% of the time so the replacement bot did something.
I only saw slugging for the 4K twice in 100 games. It really sucked but at least it was only 2% of the time.
There was an average of 3.56 gens done per game so that’s a decent amount.
Now onto the Bad
I was tunneled in 26% of my games. All of the games with tunneling had camping but there were some people who also just proxy camped. In total, in 37% of my games I saw tunneling and/or camping. That’s not a low figure.
My escape rate was an abysmal 26%. I’m pretty altruistic but as you will see from the comparison I was not expecting that low of a figure.
My fellow survivors did not do much better. Their escape rate was an abysmal 31%. So, although I’m sacrificing myself a lot to get others out nobody else I’m playing with did that well either.
There were 11 4Es versus 45 4Ks. So it’s four times as likely to get a 4K than it is to see a 4E.
Comparing win rates defined as a 3 or 4 E or K depending on your side wasn’t much better. There were 24 Survivor wins compared to 66 Killer wins and only 10 games were draws (2 on each side). So you’re still over 2.5 times more likely to win as Killer than Survivor.
Those are pretty discouraging odds.
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So, let’s take a look at a comparison of my old games. Those videos all have non-generic titles (such as Haddie Kaur Totem Hunter, etc). Keep in mind that during this time period it was after 6.1 but with the following differences.
Hook grabs were still a thing.
There was no anti facecamp timer.
There were no status icons for survivor actions.
If I remember correctly there was no basekit BT. I might be wrong on that since I run OTR all the time.
There were no bots replacing a DCing survivor.
So, you would expect that, given the changes and that tunneling and camping was easier back then there would have been more of it and that the positive changes to survivor would improve escape rates. Let’s see what my data shows. Keep in mind though I wasn’t as thorough as I was with the previous stats as I didn’t want to compare my stats to how survivors did generally; I was just proving I did play survivor to the person who accused me of not doing so and having biased arguments. As such, I just left when I got sacrificed and didn’t bother sticking around to see how the other survivors fared.
My Previous Stats:
My escape rate was 45.3%. So, my escape rate has declined by 19.7%. That’s a pretty serious decline even though, comparing the different videos, I’ve improved as survivor. I’m not saying I’m great but I’m less mediocre than I was before.
There were 4 games out of 75 in total where I saw tunneling so that was 5.3% of my games. In other words, tunneling has increased in my games from 5.3% to 26% so almost five times as much.
There were 11 games out of 75 where I saw camping proxy or face. That’s 14.6% of games as opposed to the 37% of games so that’s slightly over 2.5 times. So that’s a lot.
So, with the data I have for the current session, I was curious what would happen if I looked at the stats for the games that had tunneling, the games with camping but hitting the unhooker and the games where there was no tunneling, camping and Killer spread hooks. It was surprising which leads me to the part I’m labelling the Ugly.
Now for the Ugly With The Current Data
In the 26 games with tunneling and camping I escaped twice. That’s an escape rate of 7.69%. Maybe it was just me though so I looked at the overall escape rate for all survivors. That was a total of 8 escapes out of a total of 104 so also 7.69%. Maybe DCs had an effect? There were 3 times Survivors gave up at the beginning so that was 11.54%. That’s higher than the 9% overall but not enough to explain that huge of a difference. So, how does the gen situation look? When there was tunneling there was a total of 2.81 over 3.56 gens done on the average so being tunneled definitely had an effect on how much survivors could actually play. As well, there was 1 Survivor win with 3E and 25 Killer Wins with 3K or 4K so that’s much more biased than the overall data.
Now I looked at the games with camping but the camper hit an unhooker. It fared a bit better for the survivors. I got an escape rate of 1 out of 11 games so 9.09%. 6 survivors escaped out of a total 44 so that was a total of 13.64%. Gens fared much better with an average of 3.55 gens done which was almost identical to the 3.56 in the overall data. There was one draw (2E) with camping and the rest were all Killer wins (3K or 4K).
Now, how did everyone fare in the games where hooks were spread, there was no tunneling or camping and the 2 bleedout at 5 gens for the 4K games were excluded.
So, out of 62 games I escaped 22 times for a rate of 35.48%. So that’s lower but within the ballpark of the 40% BHVR is going for. There were a total of 110 out of 248 possible escapes for an escape percentage of 44.35%. Hmm, that looks kind of ego deflating but hopefully part of that is my altruism. As well, that’s also within the ballpark of BHVR’s desired figure. There were a total of 3.89 gens done.
Could that be due to DCs and Survivors giving up? It turns out that out of 18 games where there DCs and survivors giving up while the game was still winnable 13 of them were done when there was no camping, no tunneling and no slugging for the 4Ks. In other words, it was more likely a Survivor gave up or DCed when the Killer was playing in an enjoyable fashion. That I didn’t expect either.
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So what does this all mean?
That means a few things. This is all extrapolated from my experience but I can only speak to my experience. Just as a reminder pre 6.1 Dead Hard was rightfully nerfed from the abomination it was because it gave a 15 to 20% escape rate bonus at certain MMRs. The Killers in my data had an over 30% win rate bonus because of tunneling. Tunneling is more of a crutch and worse for the game than pre 6.1 Dead Hard was. You cannot seriously argue for tunneling to be a part of the game while you argued against abominations like pre 6.1 Dead Hard and Circle of Healing without being a hypocrite.
Second of all, the matchmaking data BHVR has is flawed and corrupted by the effectiveness of tunneling and camping. An Elo system was never designed to handle an asymmetrical situation and was designed so that symmetrical players could gain or lose based on their wins or losses on an equal playing field. The Elo system based on Kills/Escapes does not work for solo queue survivors because each individual Survivor cannot carry their entire group unless there’s hundreds to over a thousand points higher in MMR. The game needs to be designed so that Killer is stronger than any individual survivor and, ideally, as strong as 4 survivors of equal skill. If there is a tactic that is easily available to one side that increases the odds so much that disrupts the data. BHVR is measuring by kill rates and not separating anything by tunneling. This is unfair to solo queue.
Third of all, this data hammers in to a point that I didn’t realize before that there’s not really a point to playing solo queue as BHVR is making the exact same mistake VHS did with Monster. With Monster, VHS would aggregate data and was completely fine with Monsters of certain skill levels to lose miserably nearly every single game while they went on the horrendous learning curve. People stopped playing because, well, why would you play a game when the odds were so much against you? If a Killer decides to tunnel out a survivor or proxy camp they would win in over 90% of games. Why would anyone, apart from being a masochist, want to play a game for entertainment when they have less than a 10% chance of winning. That’s not human nature. To make it worse you need your teammates to improve for Elo to accurately reflect your skill as a survivor. That's not happening with solos since tunneling is disproportionately effective and reduces escape rates resulting in an MMR loss and being placed with lower MMR teammates.
Fourth, basing game decisions on games that include tunneling is unfair to Killers who don’t tunnel or camp. If tunneling provides such a huge and undeserved advantage then basing balance decisions off of kill rates means your data is either corrupt if you don’t want to encourage tunneling and camping or flawed as it’s not accurately reflecting the kill rate if you don’t’ separate games without tunneling and camping.
Post edited by TheSubstitute on10 -
So what can be done?
In my opinion there are a few things. First of all, BHVR could introduce cages similar to how they were in 2v8 and have multiple potential spawn locations. You can’t tunnel or camp very well if you don’t know where the survivors are. If there are Killers trying to learn the spawn locations just change the cage so the timer stops when a Killer enters the area while the cage resets or refreshes if it’s done multiple times.
Another way would be to introduce a repair speed bonus each time a Survivor is killed perhaps before a certain number of hooks. If somebody wants to tunnel someone out to sway the game in their favour use repair speeds to even the odds. If BHVR wants to be really kind they could pair it with basekit Corrupt Intervention or a repair speed debuff while all survivors are alive in order to deal with the common Killer complaint of how fast gens can go in the first chase.
It would be possible to, if you can’t code tunneling out of the system, to just multiply MMR gains if a Survivor dies before the fifth or sixth hook. Change the MMR formula so that the Killer gets, I don’t know, quintuple the MMR gains, if a Survivor dies early so that the tunnelers can play against the comp players. It’s pretty obvious that solo queue is in an abysmal condition and the majority of the player base needs help.
Or another possibility would be just to scrap MMR and go back to Emblems. Emblems actively punished camping and tunneling and I think that’s one of the reasons why there was less camping and tunneling. The games will not be as well matched in all of the cases where there isn’t tunneling and camping but there’s enough tunneling and camping right now the games aren’t that well matched already if you’re solo queue. The data without tunneling and camping implies that Killers that aren’t camping and tunneling don’t need any nerfs; if anything they might need a small buff here and there if the goal is a 40% escape rate. It’s the tunnelers and campers that are driving the kill rates to higher than what is desired and their doing so leads to changes that negatively affect Killers that don’t tunnel or camp.
I may encounter gaslighting over this post or people attempting to distort things instead of arguing in good faith. That’s fine; I didn’t realize how much of an effect tunneling had until I did this. If you feel that tunneling and camping is not that much of a concern, doesn’t affect things that much, etc then I have to say I posted the data and provided links to videos of 175 Survivor games to illustrate my point. Feel free to do the same. It’ll take awhile but I’ll wait. If you agree with my point please feel free to mention that BHVR should aggressively tackle this issue. Instead of dealing with items such as the abandoned Last Survivor Standing to address 4K slugs which don’t happen very much I would think the priority should be to address something in a substantial fashion that has such a huge impact on the experience of a entire group of players. When there were pre 6.1 bully squads using Dead Hard to make Killers miserable I argued that no player or group of players should ever be a points pinata in a video game. The same argument holds true for Survivors as well.
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My TLDR Summary
My escape rate has dropped from 45.3% overall to an abysmal 26%. The other survivors in my games have only a 31% escape rate.
The number of tunneling in my games has increased from 5.3% in the past to 26% now.
The low escape rates are because tunnelling produced a Killer win in over 90% of games I saw it in. There were 25 Killer wins (3K or 4K) versus 1 Survivor win (3E).
Tunnelling is even more of a crutch and has more of a disproportionate effect on win rates than pre 6.1 Dead Hard.
As tunnelling is overly effective and an elo system was never designed for asymmetrical groups the current Kill/Escape criteria corrupts the data for solo queue survivors.
Either get rid of tunnelling or give tunnelling such high MMR gains that tunnellers move to the highest MMR brackets super fast.
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what about: fix MMR system for everyone instead of asking BHVR do that only to those "tunneling" killers. But honestly, seeing 4k+ hours survivors not being able to hold an M1 chase for longer than 20s on average rather tells me average survivor player just doesn't want to improve at all
5 -
Did you even read my post? If the escape rate is 9% in games when Killers tunnel but close to BHVR's 40% rate when Killers don't tunnel the problem is the tunnelers.
11 -
Soloq is unplayable and BHVR do nothing about it , they just interesting on release new content, and of course, always will apper BHVR's defensors saiyng this game never be better than now
12 -
did you read my post at all?
Tunneling as a strategy never ever saw a high success rate in actual high skill matches (be sure to check so many tourney/scrims and DbDL matches) because of how situational it is against any team that has the bare idea of what they are doing.
Maybe provide us with some better info, like total average chase time of a tunneled survivor, or what other survivors are doing while the specific one is "being tunneled". The situation is not as black and white as you are trying to present it, and your research is basically just some raw info to support a "tunneling OP" narrative rather than having some depth so that we can see why is tunneling actually rampant and so successful in pubs, while seeing ~70% less success in high skill matches unless you were actually able to get a very fast first chase and first down.
Because i can assure you, the problems you are having would rather be because of pure MMR mismatch caused by SBMM being basically nonexistent or because of sheer player entitlement rather than tunneling as a strategy being "overpowered".
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- Bad idea. Cages removes critical gameplay features.
- Another bad idea. Survivors shouldn't be awarded for bad plays.
- You don't stop making bad ideas do you? Killers that tunnel shouldn't be rewarded by increasing their MMR. You only incentivize killers to do more tunneling.
- Untrue and yet another bad idea. Camping and tunneling existed before emblems were changed and it was worse than ever before. Nobody cares enough about emblems killers will keep doing it again.
There is no changing to it. You have to understand that it's the game's own flaw. There is nothing you can do about it.
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Do you even play solo queue? The game is unplayable with the trainwreck game design that forgot it's a PvP game. The game favors killers so heavily that I'd argue the game is borderline abusive toward you when there are so many better games and options out there.
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I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
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yes, i play soloQ a lot more than i even play SWF, and you know how matches go?
- teammates completely allergic to gens;
- teammates getting 2-tapped in literal M1 chases;
- teammates playing for some random challenge objectives and completely not caring about how the match goes for others;
- teammates giving up on 1st hook because "omg i couldn't have fun playing on autopilot and being able to win"
- 2-men SWFs with flashlights constantly just lurking for the eventual saves and never touching gens when they have nothing else to do;
etc.
And now you want to tell me that it's the actual game that favors killers heavily and not players themselves who are literally gifting killers 4k on a plate?
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The only bad idea would be leaving in a feature that allows for such a disproportionate and undeserved advantage.
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That also shows you didn't read my post. I said the data suggests that Killers that don't camp and tunnel might need a small buff as the average escape rate was at 44% under those conditions and BHVR wants 40%.
However, the disproportionate effect of tunneling affects kill rates due to how BHVR measures its data and that is obscuring that there is a case to be made for minor buffs once camping and tunneling is removed from the equation.
Please take the time to read posts in the future.
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I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
if you understood how the MMR system works, you would understand that there is NO such a thing as high MMR in this game because everybody betwee 1600 (soft cap) and 2200 (hard cap) MMR points is considered as if they are one same skill level.
"But that means BHVR intentionally catters to killers by having such bad MMR system" - no, BHVR changed MMR system literally because players are too entitled to having instant queue times that they would rather have their match be found in <20s than have a match with people who are truly of similar skill level of theirs at a cost of longer queue times.
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
my dear brother in Christ, basically every game has strategy/characters that are elo inflated. For example, Nasus in League of Legends does tremendous wonders against low elo players, while he literally falls to C tier in high elo.
It's more like dbd community is full of people poisoned by fortnite mindset (we all know how much of a negative impact fortnite had on PvP games, dbd is one that suffered from that syndrome the most) and are acting like broken things are cool as long as they can win, while anything that is merely a low elo stomping thing is considered bad because of players not willing to improve.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
biased? I have played more than enough PvP games to actually learn mindset of average PvP player, and if i wanted i could grab 3 other survivor players of my skill level, don't even use comms nor show them my loadouts, and we could have an average of at least 3-men out. You know why? Because we share the same goal and nobody will want to do random things that will grief the match.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
ohh great, because skilled players don't represent majority of the playerbase and some "mid MMR" does, we should balance the game around bad players and make it unplayable on one side once we even it out so that bad players can have chance against average killers, but skilled players can absolutely torture every killer in the game. Literally the worst possible balancing advice you can make for the game.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
now we are purely comparing apples and oranges, aren't we?
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Then you should play another game. I don't know what else to tell you.
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dude, once again, give players an actual incentive not to camp and tunnel instead of making another punishing system to catter to people that refuse to play against those strategies. Further punishing strategies that don't work on skilled players will have completely counterproductive effect and will make bad players be even worse because they will rely on BHVR punishing their opponents more.
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Feel free to post your own set of 100 to 175 survivor games so you have your own data then. As it is, you don't understand why if one tactic gives a win rate of over 90% at one level of MMR when the win rate is 56% at the exact same level of MMR then that poses an issue. If you don't understand why I can't help you.
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
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That's the same business strategy Hellbent did with VHS. It worked wonders.
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Good. It's a design flaw. It can't be changed. They would have to make a new game. What don't you understand, mate? You could give everyone bells and whistles, give godmode after unhook for 99 minutes until the survivor repairs a generator, remove hooks so we play 2v8 in 1v4 but survivors can only do generators and no sabotaging hooks, flashlight save, etc. (Super boring btw)
0 -
hmmm
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
so, killers that actually adapted to average survivors, found what their weaknesses are and actually found a meta strategy to play against them in order to boost their killrates are the ones that want easy wins, but suddenly…survivors that refuse to learn how to learn basic counterplay to tunneling, last 20s in an M1 chase even though chase aspect favors survivor side a lot are the victims?
You know that, if average killer noticed that average survivor knew how to counter tunneling, tunneling usage rate would drop by a huge percentage due to killers realizing how situational it is?
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Feel free to explain how moving tunnelers up the MMR ladder quickly so they're placed against people who can counter tunnelling is a punishment. Are you saying tunnellers should instead be placed against teams that don't have the cohesion or experience to counter tunnelling so they can get easy wins? Do you consider tunnellers being quickly moved up the ladder so they're appropriately placed against teams that can counter tunnelling a punishment? Because that sure sounds like wanting easy wins if you say that's what you consider a punishment.
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0
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You're still not accepting the different skill floors between knowing how to tunnel and how to counter tunnelling. You're literally like the Teens that defended how horrible Monster was in VHS and the Survivors that said 'just bait it out' to new Killers with pre 6.1 DH.
You want easy wins, I get it. However, there's a difference between believing only your fun matters and believing that the fun of all players is important. That's why I said I can't help you. If you don't want to accept truths because your bias stops you from putting yourself in other people's shoes there's no point in having a conversation with you as there is a fundamental mismatch in our basic positions. Unless you believe that more than just your fun indicates game health there's no way to have a productive conversation so have a good night.
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You know code can be changed.
7 -
i am the one who said that MMR system needs a rework in order to make whole game more fair and to actually give people grasp of what balance is.
Average player DOESN'T want MMR system to be reworked because they want insta queues, but then they proceed to complain how tunneling is OP.
Even your statement is contradictory, first you are trying to present tunneling as a balance issue, but then you proceed to actually agree with me without realizing it by pointing out that MMR system is flawed.
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Codes can be changed... what an answer.
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i don't tunnel, i don't camp, i don't use "crutches", yet i'm having quite a decent winrate thanks to MMR being terrible.
You want easy wins, I get it. However, there's a difference between believing only your fun matters and believing that the fun of all players is important. That's why I said I can't help you. If you don't want to accept truths because your bias stops you from putting yourself in other people's shoes there's no point in having a conversation with you as there is a fundamental mismatch in our basic positions. Unless you believe that more than just your fun indicates game health there's no way to have a productive conversation so have a good night.
ohh yeah, i definitely want easy wins, that must be the reason i'm advocating for severe MMR changes and even implementation of ranked gamemode even if it would mean that i'd have to wait 5mins in queue, what a great conclusion!
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Considering that the game had stats that were far more fair than it currently is designed, it's not entirely the survivor's fault. The game itself is tilted to favor killers far more than it should in a supposedly PvP game. The recent changes have failed to tackle the significant issues plaguing the game since its release, while simultaneously buffing and addressing map size to make it even easier for killers to dominate. Solo queue is ignored and treated as fodder for killer win rates and I'm more or less done with the game and its one-sided direction. Solo queue is unplayable and killer is generally a stomp with only a premade on voice being a general challenge.
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you are again trying to present player factor as game balance related factor lol. Fortnite really got it's grasp of dbd community
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I've played this game since 2016 and have never played Fortnite once. The game isn't balanced; I'm not sure who you're fooling, but it's clear that the devs feel killers deserve to win simply by picking the role.
10 -
ohh, so you are that Borisky kind of person
1 -
Nah, you have nothing constructive to say or argue, so I think I'm done conversing with someone who only wants a single role to be worth playing.
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Getting super high mmr and playing vs sweatlords isnt being rewarded lmao, the killers are hard tunneling/camping every game cause they want to win really badly, if they are playing vs better survivors they wont win as much and it will be harder for them.
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Some of the responses are wild and so besides the point.
With how contentious the topic of tunneling/camping is, I actually find it really nice that there is a before-after comparison applying the same definition. "It's more now" and all that is just relative. - And while the definition might not be one everyone agrees to, it is consistent; so seeing that much of an increase is interesting.Speaking of interesting:
"Could that be due to DCs and Survivors giving up? It turns out that out of 18 games where there DCs and survivors giving up while the game was still winnable 13 of them were done when there was no camping, no tunneling and no slugging for the 4Ks. In other words, it was more likely a Survivor gave up or DCed when the Killer was playing in an enjoyable fashion. That I didn’t expect either."
There are a number of killers that change tac once a survivor DCs. Personally, I'm on the fence about this: sometimes I want a DC match to just end asap (cause really, having to watch a bot is… there are no words) other times turning the whole match into players just vibing and making the best of a situation does work and can actually be quite enjoyable and there's a silent agreement that everyone gets done what they want to get done in the match and then the killer gets to sacrifice the survs (except maybe if they have an escape challenge and can somehow communicate that). — Anyway: here it would be good to know at which point the DCs occur.I do agree: a particular playstyle by one side, leading to exceptionally good results for that side if used against a particular subset of players of the other side, is concerning. Especially if the 'solution' is "git gut" — cause that automatically boots you from that subset of players of the other side. Making MMR increase more if tunneling/camping is detected (lets ignore the technical challenge implementing this would pose for the sake of argument) is not the way though.
This is for two reasons: one is that "challenging MMR" isn't actually something that makes the game experience good; most people enjoy a mix of difficult and easy matches and MMR should facilitate that (if I find it I edit it in/post it in a later reply - it's a statement of one of the guys who did a lot of MMR things and I found his argument very compelling). The other reason is: DBD's SBMM doesn't actually use "strict" MMR; the soft cap is at a point where anything beyond that soft cap is still an extremely mixed bag. People in "medium"-MMR would probably see less suffering - people who are past the soft cap would suffer all the more though. Especially those that are barely past the soft-cap would get the extremely short end of the stick; as they're not actually super good but they still get matched with those who are on a regular basis.
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I agree the MMR solution isn't the best. MMR is problematic in a game that is asymmetrical as Elo was not created to be used in an asymmetrical setting.
What you said about those that are just at the soft cap is good food for thought. If you're being placed regularly with people who are 200+ MMR higher than you you're essentially meat for the wolves. That's a terrible situation to be in and I wouldn't want a particular solution to simply displace the suffering onto another group of players. That wouldn't be fair either.
I have to admit I was completely surprised by how effective tunneling out a Survivor was in my own games. I don't tunnel or camp when playing Killer because I won't do to other people something I find miserable when done to me. I never realized it before until I examined the data but in the past I had relatively extremely few cases of tunneling so it never really stood out. I was not expecting that either. I knew it was miserable to experience but didn't fully comprehend how concerning it was.
The other thing that I found surprising is that, based solely on my experience as I don't have access to anything else, Killers at least at my MMR may need a buff or two if the goal is a 60% kill rate and the Killers don't tunnel or camp. An escape rate of 44% implies a kill rate of 56% which is lower than BHVR's stated goal. However, since tunneling affects matches so disproportionately the minority albeit significant minority of Killers that tunnel are preventing that from being considered for the majority of Killers who do not tunnel and camp. Tunneling is disadvantaging not only Survivors directly but it's indirectly disadvantaging the majority of the Killer player base.
Thanks for the food for thought.
Edit: Sorry I didn't throw this up above but the DCs happened in the first few minutes of the game. It's entirely possible that the Killer changed tactics as a response. I didn't consider someone who DCed because the Killer downed them for the third time multiple gens in as a DC because their DCing wouldn't affect the game.
Similarly if someone gave up on hook but only to give another survivor a chance for Hatch I didn't consider that giving up as it would have minimal effect on the game's outcome.
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What point are you trying to make? Solo queue is not remotely equivalent to a competitive setting where teams practice together and scrim. They have countless practice reps against tunneling with the same builds and have practiced strats for specific maps. You're failing to understand why tunneling is less effective in a competitive setting relative to solo queue. The counter is macro-based and solo survivor is deliberately designed against macro gameplay.
We'd deliberately have the one player with an anti-tunnel build be more aggro, or have the one player with UB hook trade. It's not comparable to solo queue where you have zero comms or zero info on teammate builds. By all means, you can try to rotate hit tanks and resets in solo queue while still trying to get the gens done in under 10 minutes. Good luck.
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countless practice reps in terms of countering tunneling? This is completely incorrect and you are literally trying to turn countering tunneling into some thermonuclear physics class
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If you feel it's so easy feel free to post your 100 to 175 solo queue survivors games where you and your random teammates manage to counter tunnelling effectively.
Or, considering you keep on referring to comp, you could listen to the actual comp player who is telling you why you're wrong.
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This really comes down to MMR and survivor experience. I almost exclusively solo queue and more often than not escape unless I'm going out of my way to be risky to do some late game saves (more fun). One of the most experienced survivors in the game did a video series of solo queue where a win = 3 survivor escapes. Throughout his series, it was a 60% win rate. If I recall correctly, he did an anti-tunnel build and would intentionally try to get aggro which freed up the other 3 survivors to blast through gens.
That being said, tunneling is popular because at higher MMR, it's the only chance killers have to reliably try to get a win. Being "the nice guy" and hooking everyone once in a row just isn't feasible. I'd personally suggest that killers be given strong incentives to not tunnel as opposed to trying to nerf tunneling which will inevitably hurt all killers across the board (even the kinds that typically don't tunnel) because sometimes tunneling IS the only option the killer has considering how much power survivors have over killers.
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I love the forum because people genuinelly tell you, absolutely straight-faced, that survivors deserve to get tunneled and camped if they don't spend a thousand in game hours training against tunneling and camping, and recording themselves to pinpoint their mistakes and comparing strategies with educational DBD youtube videos on how to counter tunneling and camping, just to counter a strategy that the killer did not require even a fraction of the effort to apply, just a "Should I tunnel today?: > [Yes] > [No]" choice they made on the spot.
Like, literally. If a 20 hour killer with no concept of what the DBD community is or what "tunneling" means decides to tunnel, a 1000h survivor has to die if they didn't spend those 1000h training to the level of tournament players. Because, you know, tunneling is not effective against them, so therefore the responsability on countering me is yours. It's not my fault the strategy doesn't require me to know what a hook state is or how to use my character's power. I literally just clicked you to death because you're bad and I'm not lul git gud
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They also try to say tunnelling is necessary to win in public games when the intended kill rate for public games is 60%. It's not necessary. There's an argument to be made with the current balance it's necessary in the competitive scene and I defer to those with much greater experience there (they know the reality there far better than I do) but I'm not discussing the competitive scene. I'm discussing public matches with random teammates with a game that is intentionally balanced so the Killer has a greater than 50% win rate. There's no need to tunnel in public matches.
I also find it humorous how there are so many defending camping and tunneling who say they don't camp or tunnel but have enough of a personal investment in the issue they act as if their family is being held hostage and will be killed if they don't react with outrage to the suggestion that tunneling and camping might be bad for the game.
It's quite the dichotomy to be so incensed about something somebody supposedly has no investment in.
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...Yes, actually. Teams do practice this and practice playing in 3v1s. If you don't understand why dealing with tunneling would be easier when you know your teammates, have a clock system, know your teammate builds, and have practiced things like body blocking/dying under pallets/etc repeatedly with the same players, I don't know what to tell you.
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why are people fighting you on this??
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If everyone else is having the same experience as you, then the overall kill rates will go down below the target 60% and devs will make appropriate adjustments. If the overall kill rates are still around 60%, then your below-average escape rate is a skill issue, matchmaking issue, or just a run of bad luck.
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I have no idea. People always say post your games so I posted 100 games showing how tunneling is disproportionately effective against solo queue and compared it to another 75 games that were recorded about two years ago to show tunneling has substantially increased. That pretty definitively shows it's an issue in my experience. Despite getting 100s to possibly over a 1,000 more hours of experience of survivor and showing improvements in play my escape rate has been cut neatly in half while solo queue has gotten mechanical improvements from BHVR (status icons, basekit BT, etc) with the main change being I now see tunnelling five times more than before.
I mean it's not hard to figure out a tactic that requires coordination, teamwork and regular communication to counter is disproportionately effective against solo survivors with no communication and random teammates but some people just refuse to accept it.
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I did a comparison between other survivors escape rates and mine and explained in the posts above the flaws with your argument.
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My escape rate has dropped significantly since 6.1 too. I like to joke that you're supposed to get better at games the more you play them, not worse. Goes to show that skill only gets you so far I suppose. The devs still control the process ultimately.
Thanks for sharing. It's nice to see a comparison two years apart.
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Thanks, I appreciate that comment. And, yes, it's true. Skill can only take you so far but if the game mechanics are set up so the odds are very much stacked against you things will get worse.
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