70 seconds hook timer aftermath. What do you think of the change? Good or bad?
70 seconds hook timer was released from the PTB. It will be PERMANENT.
What do you think of this change?
Is it good or very good, or is it bad or very bad for the game?
Is it solving camping?
Is it solving tunneling?
Is it actually giving killers an incentive to split hooks instead of forcing the game into a 3v1 as soon as possible?
Write you opinion below!
Comments
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It hasn't fundamentally changed much about how people play, it's just harder to force people to second stage which is good for Survivor gameplay.
33 -
I think this change is BAD for the game overall, if not very bad, because:
- It doesn't solve camping really.
- It makes the anti camp mechanic stronger with no rebalancement of it.
- If makes tunneling even more necessary.
- It doesn't solve killers wanting to tunnel.
- It doesn't give killers an incentive to split hooks, and the best strategy still remains to kill a survivor into a 3v1 ASAP.
- It gives survivors MUCH much time to just let the survivor hang there, and finish gens.
- It gives much more times to, after doing a gen, go for a trade last second and always be fine.
- Hook trading now is VERY strong for survivors, because of how much times it gives.
- It punishes low/mid tier killers a lot, where strong/S tier killers don't get affected much.
19 -
I still think it's too early to say. While it doesn't affect killers who don't camp, it does inadvertently hurt killers by giving survivors more time to spend on gens instead of running for the unhook. While 10 extra seconds isn't a lot, that does add up over multiple gens
0 -
gen-rushing is stronger, gen before friends is stronger. killer's hook presence is greatly diminished. a poor change that should be reverted.
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You said it doesn't solve camping and then said it makes the anti camp mechanic stronger?
Getting mixed messages here, do you want camping to be less effective or not?
17 -
I didnt even noticed it. Maybe its because I forgot it or I dont care about it.
3 -
It hasn't meaningfully impacted any of my matches yet. Anyone claiming it directly impacts the match, is basically self-reporting to crutching on camping too heavily.
I've had to camp on occasion too, but I've never required it as a lynchpin strategy. It's kinda like the 8 regression limit mechanic and people saying they kept hitting it. They self-reported to camping 3-gens, and they could no longer win due to exploiting bad design.
(I will say Eruption is the exception to the rule, since it effectively changes this to 4 regression events instead of 8, and I'd be fine with the Eruption pop not counting towards the limit).
As long as Killers play more aggressively, and win through lethality (which is even possible on Ghostface), then they will still win. If a Killer is attempting to win through attrition, then it will be slightly more difficult. If the threat of 2+ people on hook isn't enough to force a rescue, then the remaining Survivors are simply ratting for Hatch, so the match is a Killer win regardless.
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It doesn't do that much for the majority of survivors. Tunneling will be used by anyone who wants to tunnel regardless of the change since it provides a disproportionate advantage to the Killer. Nobody needs to tunnel; they just do it since it sways the match in their favour by a huge amount.
It won't affect camping that much since the only way that the extra 10 seconds will matter is if a) the hooked survivor is patient enough to stew on the hook without sabotaging their team by wanting to get off early and b) their team takes advantage of the time by not taking the hooked person off at the first opportunity and instead doing it when it is tactically wise to do so. Neither of that can be guaranteed outside of an understanding among SWF members.
I think it will do very little for the majority of survivors (who solo instead of SWF). It's a baby step in the right direction but it doesn't go far enough.
1 -
It's a perfect, non-abusable way to make camping and tunneling even slightly less efficient than they were. We need exactly that, and more things like that.
I typically argue that this 10 seconds doesn't do nearly enough and have said since 6.1.0 that hook times should be matched to gen speeds. This 10 seconds only, and barely, makes up for the extra 10 seconds of efficiency that camping and tunneling got when gen speeds increased. That was 2 years ago, and this was long overdue.
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Survivors greed gens WAY more and it’s not even close. At least when I play my main, significantly more gens are done and it gets to the end game way more often.
Definitely encourages returning to hook and tunneling but dissuades camping for sure.
7 -
It’s on the survivor team to make use of those extra 10+10 seconds, they will do nothing on their own.
Add in reassurance, multiples if you are in a swf, and you will literally feel the killers desperation while still continuing to camp.
Just don’t play stupid, use what the devs are giving to you!
This was already possible before, just survivors refusing to make use of 2x60 seconds of hook time against a camper. I was hoping, the announcement of an increase would finally make some survivors realise.
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It's not contradictory: anti camp is when the killer literally stands super close. If a Bubba stays further than 16 meters, or in a vertical place where it charges even slower within the 16 meters, it does absolutely nothing.
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"Nobody needs to tunnel". And that's where you're wrong: with 4 survivors always going gens, eventually you will need to tunnel, unless you have Devour Hope of another super gimmicky build.
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No, I'm not. Unless you're not satisfied with winning over 60% of the time there's no need to tunnel. And I'd argue that if you're dissatisfied with winning significantly more than 50% of the time in a multi player competitive game that's a you problem. Nothing Survivor has is busted anymore like it was pre 6.1.
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It encourages gens-before-friends so now I'm just tunneling and slugging from the start to compensate the risk.
Otherwise if I do it later and the survivors apply the tactic, there is no possible comeback.
As survivor I can finish gens more easily (and faster) as I have more time before going for an unhook.
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It's exactly as I predicted, which is that hooking is now a net negative, because the time you spend to down someone isn't worth the so-called "momentum" that you gain by hooking. Now, survivors can greed gens even harder, and whereas before they'd make it to the hook as their teammate was dying, now they can trade hook at the last second and you have to go on another chase with that survivor. You can hook trade all match long, and it's still a negative to the killer because of the time lead survivors have. Obviously, this hook buff won't help the lower level survivors, even though I'm sure that's what this was intended to do. You can have 100-second hook timers, and scared noobs won't be willing to hook trade. So keep at it: balancing the game around noobs so that survivors at top level can be that much more oppressive. 👍
5 -
has basically no effect on killers with strong chase and mobility who can always be in a chase and win them fast. For others killers like hag, trapper , ghostface . There is even less reason to play them now . I don't mind because i allready mostly play high mobility killers
4 -
I can't punish survivors for being greedy with gens which doesn't seem like good design from my own play as killer and what I'm seeing playing survivor this has decreased camping but increased tunneling.
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I didn't notice a change yesterday because survivors kept immediately unhooking before I got into a chase with someone else, and often times, before I even left the hook. So I just tunneled the person out and nothing changed.
Hopefully people will realize that you can take your time with saves.
That said, when/if people get used to the fact that you can wait longer to unhook, I do wonder what the long-term consequences will be. Part of me thinks generators might go faster, as there's less incentive to leave them before you finish one (since you'll have ample time to finish + rescue in more scenarios now). A part of me thinks there's also the chance that nothing changes because, ideally, people should stay on generators and refuse to unhook until someone else is in a chase, in which case this doesn't change much unless said chase happens in the last 10 seconds of a hook phase. Yet another part of me thinks nothing will change because players are too antsy for quick results and won't actually utilize the extra time given to them.
Curious to see what will actually happen in the future.
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I haven't noticed it impact my games but I feel this is one of those changes where it's going to take time to really judge its affect.
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I'll disagree with their point and say, it does not solve camping and it does not make AFC stronger. Because nobody actually camps like that, they proxy camp now. 10 seconds doesn't solve the problem, and just makes it so survivors now can ignore their friends longer and power through gens longer.
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What has happened a couple if times in my games is this: you hook a surviver, roam around the map looking for survivors, chase one off, but they run to a strong loop, meanwhile a gens gets done somewhere esle, and they even got time on the clock to safe their team mate, quite often its this 10s that lets survivors easily finish their gens.
As OP said: its not a big, problematic change, but its a net loss on basically all fronts for the game: gens before friends and still go for the safe, gen jockeys can have their cake and eat it too, securing a second hook stage became much harder and it will force more killers into "tunnel or perish" situations, being backed agaisnt the wall with 2 gens remaining and just 1 hook.
5 -
Base kit borrow time, no more hook grabs, the anti-facecamp and 70 seconds hook states... When none of this existed, there were less problems to achieve successful unhook. All these changes have only created selfish players, and consequently worse players.
4 -
It doesn't seem to have changed my games too much but I am seeing more tunneling.
1 -
I can't see it having much impact in solo queue due to 90% of survivors forcing stage 2 if you don't rescue them within 30 seconds.
It will have a big impact in SWF games though. A coordinated, efficient team basically gets an extra 30 seconds of gen time before they even have to think about going for the save.
I really don't like changes or perks that literally do nothing for solo queue, but buff SWF massively. I don't think it's healthy for the game and just makes the whole balance thing even more of a mess between SWF & Solo queue.
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I'm still getting 2 out b4 exit gates start using GE and PR.
Usually get the last 2 with noed and remember me with 2 stacks only lol.
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I mean assuming your profile pic, what strong loop is there against a skilled Clown? Predropping a god-pallet? I dunno, I still think sufficient skill and lethality is unimpacted. This was a change that was supposed to happen when gens got bumped from 80s to 90s, to make camping not indirectly buffed as a result. To that end, I'd take both 80s gens and 60s hooks again. I won back then, and I still win now, it isn't a problem when Killer has enough skill without crutching on shortcuts.
3 -
Nothing really changed.
6 -
I don't notice it at all.
1 -
Totally forgot it was even a thing until I saw it mentioned on here. My games feel the same.
6 -
this change pretty much doesn't do anything regarding average dbd match because average survivor really has no idea on how to actually use the hook in their favor as a way of pressuring the killer, and because of that they will try to gaslight you how this change is just about "well just don't camp" despite them going next on hook against campers anyways.
On high skill level this change is literally drastic. Kobes were something you could ban in comp for example because you can control people not to try kobeing, but this change is something even comp community doesn't know how to solve, while being well aware of how severe it is. Whole 10s of additional hook pressure per hook state, combined with Reassurance that hasn't been nerfed at all is just a huge overkill for hook mechanics that are already completely unsafe for killer to generate map pressure.
3 -
Didnt do anything for the high level either.
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Splitting hooks will always be a guaranteed loss unless gen times are increased. It's a matter of simple math. Unless survivors are intentionally not doing their objective, there is no mathematically possible way to win if you're trying to spread hooks evenly. It's especially impossible against coordinated SWF teams.
8 -
barely noticed, i rarely get a survivor killed from the hook timer
1 -
I feel it's a bad addition, and this is coming from a survivor perspective.
Since its implementation, I've been left on the hook by my team mates while they prioritize gens, totems, hell even chests to the point I've reached second stage even though I wasn't being camped nor was the killer even close enough to be within terror radius range. I've experienced this change in survivor behavior, prioritizing gens over friends, in about a quarter of my games since 8.2.0 was released where it was an incredibly rare occurrence before hand.
I haven't been able to get as many killer games in due to long queue times in my region, so I can't speak on it from that side of the aisle just yet.1 -
The ideal game process for killers is - one person on hook, one in chase, one going for an unhook/heal, and one on gens. That's pressure. Even Otz, who is considered one of the most knowledgeable on the game and listened to by many, has said this. It's not ideal for survivors to leave team mates on hook because they contribute literally nothing to the team on there. And if the survivor in chase goes down while someone is hooked, then it's recipe for a snowball. They need to be unhooked and back on a gen asap. Using Reassurance on a survivor when you can just unhook them is bad decision making. The only time it's good decision making is if the killer is camping. Because in that situation, it's one survivor on hook and 3 survivors on gens. No one is in chase, no one is having to unhook and heal. No pressure.
Also comp isn't even the same game as pub so no reason to get into that. They have their own rules, the devs have nothing to do with it.
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Its been a 100% survivor blood points all night long. I've never seen this happen. Soooo what do you think?
FYI... Went up against The Dark Lord once in 20 matches
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Nothing has changed in terms of how people play. Killer mains are just being dramatic when they say it has caused more slugging. Killers slugged before the change and they still do. No difference at all. It's a bad attempt to get the change reversed because it made the easiest playstyle (camping) more difficult.
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I could notice it immediately. The survivors took forever to save their teammate, probably because they were on gens the whole time, yet they still got them off before hitting second stage. That's what this change helps do.
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Honestly, same.
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Explain to me how camping is easy in this day and age. You can't be too close or you'll give them a free self-unhook, and with the increased hook time their teammates hook trade more consistently, even when they waited way too long to go save. Killers will in fact slug more, even if it costs them the game, because they're rightfully afraid that hooking gives them nothing. No pressure, no fewer survivors, no regression or slowdown without perks. They just waste 45 seconds of time chasing 1 person to start the game at 1 hook and 2-3 gens left.
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Are we really trying to imply that standing exactly 11m from a hook is some kind of huge challenge now? Only the most skilled players can figure out this one trick?
I know that literally anything the killer does is an amazing feat that's never before been seen in gaming history, but come on.
Anti camping measures (including the anti face camping mechanic) can only be considered, at best, a slap on the wrist. And that's if the killer can choose to just move slightly farther away and avoid that slap on the wrist entirely.
3 -
I don't have a problem with it, you really should be leaving hook and starting chase with someone else while someone is on hook anyway. Now, proxy camping is an even worse option, which is fine by me. Add anti-camp self unhook progress to the survivor HUD too while you're at it, SWF can communicate it, why shouldn't solos be able to play around it?
Sure survivors can attempt to slam gens and leave the person on hook, but if they're not quick enough to unhook, they may find themselves overwhelmed if you manage to down someone else before they can get the unhook, then head back and interrupt them as they try to go for a late unhook on the first survivor.
It's not always a good idea to leave people on hook for 70 seconds, that's one less survivor doing gens and a potential snowball waiting to happen. These kinds of buffs also make room for more killer buffs if they turn out to make a big impact on kill/escape rates, pushing the game in a more chase oriented and less camping oriented direction.
1 -
My survivor matches have been plagued with killers camping or returning to hook to tunnel, but my killer matches are pretty much the same as always?
I feel like people are quietly protesting against the change and playing in such a way that fulfills their own pessimistic views about what the change would accomplish, because I genuinely do not notice any difference when I'm playing killer.
3 -
Otz said this literally before all of the most severe hook changes happened.
It's not ideal for survivors to leave team mates on hook because they contribute literally nothing to the team on there. And if the survivor in chase goes down while someone is hooked, then it's recipe for a snowball.
it's not ideal? It's literally optimal to greed your teammate on hook as much as possible for a hook stage and that's literally nullifying map pressure killer is trying to create by having a survivor hooked.
They need to be unhooked and back on a gen asap. Using Reassurance on a survivor when you can just unhook them is bad decision making.
completely wrong. First, hopping to a gen asap after being unhooked is literally putting yourself as a survivor into a most vulnerable possible spot and peak of bad decision making. Telling Reassurance is bad and only actually useful against camping killers is a sign of complete unawareness of what hook pressure is.
Because in that situation, it's one survivor on hook and 3 survivors on gens. No one is in chase, no one is having to unhook and heal. No pressure.
ahh, the same old black & white definition of map pressure. Map pressure NOT just about amount of survivors doing gens. You can have 2, and even 3 survivors off gens and still create roughly as much pressure as if only one survivor is off gens.
1 -
To me the +10s hook timer is not a big change in itself, but it is sort of a tipping point for many killers. Tunneling and camping are a defacto unfun playstyle, thats true, but all the safety systems that got added to the game, ie basekit BT 5s, then 10s, Antifacecamp mechanic, buffs to OFT and DS, hook time wasters like Reassurance and Kinship/Comradery and Deliverance, easier timer for flashlight saves and utter impossibility to protect from flashbang safes, and the gutting of most gen-defense perks, all this together has now reached a tipping point were its more detrimental to hook survivors, then to slugging them.
We talked a lot about this in the last couple of days and I tried it myself, and if my goal is just to win, its much more effective to slug everyone and force one or two bleedouts, then hooking, because hooking is such a timewaster. In essence, we would need an incentive to go for 12 hooks and keeping survivors alive for a while, so that everyone can have some fun at the game, BUT right now this is actively sabotaging your game as the killer.
For example, if we had oldschool BBQ and Gift of Pain as basekit, what would he get?
BBQ basekit: the killer gets +25% BP for every survivor they hook while no one died, ie as soon as one survivor leaves the game, the bonus gets frozen. After hooking a survivor, show the aura of a non-hooked survivor for a couple of seconds.
Gift of Pain basekit: a hooked survivor gets a debuff to gen-repair speed as long as they aren`t hurt again.
This would give the killer an incentive to keep survivors alive and not shooting themselves in the foot by doing so. Maybe the debuff could escalate the longer the game goes on with everyone alife and not death, whatever the specifics, but BHVR never really tried anything in this direction. Old BBQ was in every build because of the BP bonus and thats why BHVR wanted to do away with it, but it was also incredibly healthy for the game: it gave killers an incentive to hook everyone and even though if they had no idea what to do next, being shown opportunity and some auras pried them away from the hook. Win win for everyone.
5 -
it's not ideal? It's literally optimal to greed your teammate on hook as much as possible for a hook stage and that's literally nullifying map pressure killer is trying to create by having a survivor hooked.
How is it 'literally optimal'? Because leaving that survivor on hook is 'literally' turning the game into a 1v3, which we've been told over and over again is by far the best thing for the killer to do.
So why is it both optimal for the killer to make it a 1v3 as fast as possible, while also being optimal for the survivors to make it a 1v3 as fast as possible?
5 -
"with 4 survivors always doing gens"
w-what are you doing that 4 survivors are always on gens?
6 -
i think they're generally aware that sometimes, it makes sense to stick a gen and finish it before rescuing, but they are generally unaware why that is sometimes the case.
There's a whole lot of strategy that goes into sticking gens vs unhooking a survivor, and in most cases the biggest factor in that decision is weighing the risk of the gen being regressed against the work the extra survivor can do. Usually it is better to go for the unhook immediately - I'd say the cutoff is about 75% gen completion or 22.5 seconds left on the gen. Any more than that and you're wasting a whole bunch of time letting the survivor hang and do nothing.
The cases when you wouldn't go for the immediate unhook are either unaffected by the hook change or are actively the thing they were trying to prevent in the first place so, good tbh.
2 -
I can't say I've noticed it all that much.
In my killer games there's been a few instances where I think "wow, they haven't gone for a save yet?" but I can't say if that's happening more than it used to. It's also not as though that's a bad thing for me, literally the opposite, so I'm not going to complain about it lol.
I think logically it probably will weaken proxy camping overall, because survivors have more time to reset and more time to punish it with gen repair. On the flip side, though, if they just stick on gens regardless of what the killer's doing, they're making themselves very vulnerable to a snowball, so it can't easily be abused.
Good change. Small, but good.
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