8.2.1 Survivor perk Tier list
Me thinks DS should be 40s.
Based on how they fuction amongst good players. Of course if ur playing with people that have the IQ of a garden gnome perks like reassurance or exponential wont get much value.
Comments
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What's wrong with deliverance?
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This tier list is kinda cooked I'm ngl.
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I agree, DS should stun both the Killer and the Survivor for 40s, then the Killer can hit and down the Survivor immediately afterward.
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What makes Wicked in need of a significant nerf/rework in your eyes? It seems like a pretty good and balanced perk to me.
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Encourages tunnelling, removes important early game pressure from killers that need it, and is just too strong in general.
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Basement unhook. "I went down near basement so now I get a free unhook and remove all of the killers pressure yippee!!!!".
Remove its free unhook and buff the aura reading to 30s and boom its much healthier.
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There is so much wrong. Like who would come up with the idea of boon circle of healing and exponential being too strong 😅. You waste so much more time setting them up and then walking there, that they do not even make up the time.
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And if you play properly by stealthing early, forcing hook trades, or running 2 delis you're guaranteed for it to proc.
Sure if you run out in the open at the start of the game it's useless, but we talking about good players here.
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I'd put Exponential down for a rework. It's useless in normal matches, but really good for bully squads. There's no middle ground with that perk. The same goes for Boil Over.
Both DS and UB are extremely strong, but that's because they need to be. So, strong but not needing a nerf.
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first row: i wholeheartedly agree
second row: Plot Twist should be in the first when paired with DS, OTR should be in first row because of how far more powerful it became after hook grabs removal and DS buff
I disagree with Saboteur and Breakdown being under balanced/need a buff categories because whole sabotaging concept is very unhealthy for the game.
Also disagree with Repressed Alliance needing significant buff, i would put it in "balanced" category since it does it's job of countering any kind of gen regression applied to a gen very effectively.
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Genuinely the only survivor perks you could possibly argue need even a slight nerf are Deja Vu, Distortion, Lithe, Off the Record, Resilience, and [edit: we'll make it, I accidentally said Made For This]. Maybe BGP and Adrenaline but even those are borderline. Some of those I would personally argue against but I can see where they're coming from.
I'm sorry, but Overcome is too strong? Exponential is too strong? Circle of No Self Heal is too strong? Prove Thyself, which was slower than a solo gen BEFORE it was nerfed, is too strong? "Literally what even is that icon" (troubleshooter) is too strong?
Post edited by ratcoffee on4 -
It's basically a 5th survivor coming out of nowhere to get the save, with nobody having to get off gens or trade hook.
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I'd say Second Wind is fairly balanced. I'm always getting value out of it, especially paired with Autodiadact (it's my goto fun pair to use in my matches now). It's a free heal off hook, only takes 20 seconds, you're free to run/loop/gens/totems etc. All it takes is to heal a health state of someone else. Doesn't feel too strong or too weak.
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The tradeoff is you have no guarantee of it actually proccing, and then are afflicted with broken. It is straight awful in solo q as you can't communicate with your teammates that you have it, and if you are running it in a swf then you can make the argument that a lot of niche perks are way stronger. I think Deliverance is balanced out by its very feast or famine affect.
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explain why background player is top of list and sprint burst is little lower?
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This list reeks of 'I overindulge in content creators' because there's no way the average player would ever have issue with things like resurgence.
Layering it with 'well good players....!' adds even more unoriginality.
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SB has to be pocketed, and the killer can force it to be used. BGP activates at the perfect time for it to have zero counterplay if someone is under pallet.
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Yes instahealing myself and punishing the killer for not tunnelling and camping is very good perk design yes yes.
Why do ppl defend we'll make it and resurgence to death when they're like 2 of the most unhealthy perks in the game by punishing the killer for NOT camping?
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Does anyone even use Reassurance? Lol
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this is genuinely one of the worst tierlist I have seen. No perks on both sides needs a nerf except maybe distortion but that’s more of a rework.
Imagine still complaining about adrenaline or ds.
you do know that perks need to actually do something useful right? Resurgance was never used before because it was either bad or just mid. Now it’s good.
No way you’re complaing about plotwist. Yeah I can’t take this seriously
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this tierlist reeks of “I want everything usefull nerfed so I can get easier games” even though killer has been better since 6.1. Devs have done a good job making killers strong. Unfortunately we still got people complaining about how survivors are op because they lose 1 game
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a perk that requires you to not get hooked first and for you to get an unhook on a teammate. Leaves you broken for 60 seconds. Sounds to me like a fair perk. No reason to complain about it
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otr needs to go, is all i'm gonna say.
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not saying this list is wrong but i had a good laugh seeing all the anti tactics perk at the very top (DS, Reinsurance, Unbreakable)
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Who on earth would call for a nerf to DS, Reassurance, Balanced Landing, Boon: Exponential, Prove Thyself and Troubleshooter, among others, and then go on to call Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders 'balanced'?
…
Oh.
It's you again.
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Haiiiiiiiiiiiii :3
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Wait, hang on- how are you being punished for not camping here? Surely the only way you'd be negatively affected by WMI and Resurgence is if you're sticking around the hook to try and tunnel someone, since in that case they're healed too quickly to do it.
If you're off chasing someone else, surely you'd expect that the saved survivor is gonna be healed the next time you chase them?
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Yeah, Deja Vu is probably the only perk that deserves a change, since BHVR said it got a temp buff until a 3-gen solution was found. Not sure why you'd include Lithe/OTR/Resil/MFT in there unless you are saying buffs. Lithe is basically an inferior SB, OTR is denied by turbo-tunneling off hook or just not tunneling at all, Resil is still countered by Hemorrhage, and MFT was already butchered long ago.
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welcome to the era in DbD where most powerful usage of DS and Reassurance isn't against tunneling and camping :)
Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders have conditions that make them much more of a high risk-high reward, while e.g. DS and Reassurance are a minimum risk perks that give extremely good results if you know what you are doing.
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i would disagree with Deja Vu needing a change, because the 6% offsets the time needed to get to the gen, it's a net neutral. however I can at least ackowledge the validity of the argument you're making, it makes sense.
Lithe in particular is the easiest of the exhaustion perks to use correctly - you can't waste it like with Sprint Burst, and it's much easier to activate than Balanced Landing. I could definitely see an argument for increasing the exhaustion cooldown on Lithe to give it a downside as compared to SB / BL.
OTR is a pet peeve because a streamer I watch a lot seems to get bodyblocked by OTR players quite a bit, so maybe I just see it misused too often. I think it could stand to simply lose collision, but on the other hand, "so what" is a fair argument against nerfs. bodyblocking is a tool and putting yourself in harm's way after being unhooked is a fair tunneling risk, so there's also a fair argument against. (bodyblocking with DS I see as different because with DS the survivor ends up on the ground doing nothing, whereas with OTR the survivor can take chase again or run off and mend)
Resilience is one of the only perks that genuinely, reliably increases gen speeds. If someone wants to make an argument against any survivor gen speed perk, that's the one to argue against. I personally don't think perks are the issue (it's a combination of survivor items and killer expectations) and would encourage killers stop blaming perks specifically, but I think if there are any perks that aid in gen rushing, Resi is the closest to being viable at it.
I'm stupid and meant to say We'll Make It instead of MFT. MFT is fine. We'll Make It is also fine IMO, but being able to reset that quickly is super strong and I can see the validity in arguing that the numbers are slightly overtuned & it should be cranked down a little, even if I disagree.
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lmfao
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PE and I: WS are high risk low reward…
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this is the perfect response💀
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Potential Energy maxes out at -33% repair speed, and Weaving Spiders has an even worse return on investment. That's not 'high risk, high reward', that's 'massive risk, high punishment'. Both of these help killers more than survivors.
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potential energy is so bad💀
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To be fair, the value pitch for Potential Energy is "This generator goes faster at the cost of that generator going slower", so it breaking out to lower repair speed is kind of the point. It's for completing specific risky generators faster, not for doing gens faster overall.
The problem with Potential Energy is that you lose all your tokens on hit, making it an even bigger risk than it's meant to be. If they changed that to only losing tokens on down or hook, the perk would be a lot more solid overall.
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Most of these I think can be fair to say being in the realm of opinion on both ends, so Resilience is the only one I'll care to defend on other grounds. It was 9% back when we had the release game, and we had 65s gens on release. Now I didn't play that far back, but I felt it was perfectly fine with 80s gens.
9% saves ~7.5s on 90s gens, and ~6.4s on 80s gens, so I don't think it is shaving off that much time. Also, it comes with an inherent risk (more visible if you play stealth Killers at a higher rate, or meme with stealth perks) that staying injured can give Killer free wins by a snowball at times. All too often people greed staying injured, and lose a 2nd chase before going down as a result. I like risk+reward perks a lot personally, even if I think Dark Arrogance is garbage and should be buffed to 30-35%. Overall Resil feels good and the perfect balance for a risk/reward design, hence why it hasn't been touched in the entire history of the game (to my knowledge and 0 patch history on the wiki).
The only true complaint I have less of an argument against is 99ing the heal, but that partially is fixed by Hemorrhage and needing the Surv to bring a Med-kit/self-care while keeping their hands free (no flashbang). That being said, I wouldn't mind Resilience being nerfed to give the inverse percentage of your heal level. 0% healed gives full 9%, 50% healed gives 4.5% 99% healed gives ~.1% boost.
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That would be an interesting nerf. I also tend to agree that it doesn't really need the nerf, but it's good to at least talk about
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No, you are punished since if you're away from the hook, ur giving the unhooked a free 3s heal.
Proxying = no value from resurgence or WMI (unless they use it on someone else) if you return to hook in time or force hook trades.
Being far away = 3s heal.
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I mean, sure, if you're not there and they're running We'll Make It, that's a quick heal. Eight seconds is nothing to sneeze at.
But in this scenario, you're already chasing someone else. That's gonna take longer than eight seconds, and it's probably also going to take longer than sixteen seconds, so… what exactly is the difference? The survivor's going to be healed and back on generators either way, and while an extra eight seconds isn't nothing, it's also not exactly game swinging.
If you're leaving them to reset, they're gonna reset. To a degree, it kinda doesn't matter how long it takes, and it certainly isn't punishing you if it's a little faster. The only way you're punished is if you're returning to the hook and trying to chase the unhooked survivor, since then you're dealing with an extra health state. If you're across the map then you're barely affected.
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Considering you have to ferry back and forth, even if the tokens were 1:1, it'd still be notable slowdown in the killer's favour. The fact that you lose not just some, but -ALL- tokens when you lose a health-state by any means is just icing on the cake and dumps the perk squarely down in K(iller)-tier.
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That's exactly the issue. The speed of which they reset is simply not balanced, akin to something like old circle of healing. I don't want to leave that hook since I know they'll be healed in 2.4s instead of 28+s if I were to separate the unhooker and hit the unhooked into DW.
So either: Stay around hook, hit unhooked into DW to counter OTR and Res, chase unhooker to separate the Well make it. Guaranteed 28s heal assuming no other reset perks.
OR
Chase someone else further away. 2.4s heal.
Old COH did the exact same thing. Why spread pressure when everyone could heal in 20ish seconds? Why not tunnel when my health states mean nothing? Perks that directly punish the killer for leaving the hook need either a complete rework or a significant nerf.
Maybe if they had an activation requirement? Eg, resurgence would require 1 protection hit, WMI could require the killer to be within 24m of the hook while you're unhooking.
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Sometimes survivor perks should be allowed to do a thing. Just because killers keep breaking the game doesn't mean survivors should be punished for it by constantly dumpstering their perks.
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What if the said "thing" the perk does is too powerful and/or encourages people to play the game in unfun ways?
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The difference being that old Circle of Healing did this everywhere, the whole game. We'll Make It and Resurgence only work after a hook. The problem with old COH was that injuries which didn't convert into hooks didn't matter, survivors could consistently heal themselves in six seconds. That is when it matters how fast a heal is.
When someone's just been unhooked, though, you already got the value of that injury. You should be expecting that whoever just got unhooked will probably be healthy again by the time you get to them next, since you're explicitly ignoring them for a little while. We'll Make It and Resurgence are good perks only partially because they allow for quick resets after a hook, they're honestly better for how much they can prevent you from being an easy tunnelling target— Resurgence also has the benefit of buffing some less useful tools like Self Care, and We'll Make It also has the potential for team resets, but both are only activated after the killer progressed their objective so they're balanced.
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You're still looking at it in terms of speed here, though, when the point of Potential Energy isn't to make the game shorter. Yes, you spend a little extra time overall, but you get the value of finishing one specific generator quicker. In order for that to be worth your time, you have to pick your targets carefully.
Pump a safe gen the killer doesn't care about as much for tokens, then spend them on a generator that is easier for the killer to defend, or that's part of a 3-gen, or is just in a risky position for some other reason. It's the same concept as two survivors working on the same generator- not a good idea if you actually want to do all the gens quickly, but if the smartest play in the moment is to do that gen quickly, it's a good tactic.
It's only it losing all tokens when losing a health state that prevents Potential Energy from being a perfectly worthwhile perk.
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Considering neither of these perks are top picks, nor are they pushing killrates down below balanced points, I think you'll have a hard time making these perks out to be 'too powerful'.
And -everything- encourages killers to play in unfun ways, because these same people will pull a fine comb through every change to see which way they can exploit it to their advantage. The solution isn't to just keep nerfing survivors, the solution is to make killers not want to camp/tunnel. Even if you did nerf these perks down, squarely out of viability, you'd still be out there tunnelling your heart out.
If camping/tunnelling were legitimate concerns for forum killers, we'd see them try to come up with a solution outside of simply 'keep nerfing survivors', instead of vigorously defending it and hailing it as 'a valid playstyle', except when it can be used to complain about survivor perks.
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Resurgence is a top 5 surv perk and We'll make it is meta.
Yes, that is exactly what I am advocating for, hence why I want perks that encourage tunnelling nerfed (Deli, resurgence, etc).
There is no solution to tunnelling without reworking the core mechanics of the game, which will never happen. So it'd be great if they didn't push the tunnelling meta even harder by letting perks like resurgence, WMI, deli, deadlock, forced hesitation, etc exist while nerfing perks that encourage split pressure like pain res and grim embrace.
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Resurgence is not a 5 five perk
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"DS should be 40s"
At this point, BHVR should nerf DS so you start the trial on the hook if you have it equipped so killers can stop complaining about it.
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