Why is the Dragontooth Dagger designed this way?
The Dragontooth Dagger is a very rare addon for Vecna, it makes basic attacks inflict Hemorrhage and Mangled for 45 seconds to survivors who wear magic items.
Why does it last 45 seconds if the mangled rework a few months ago scaled duration with rarities? It should be 80. It's not that oppressive of an effect to warrant the low duration either
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Because it would give sloppy for an addon slot instead of a perk, and it would be pretty strong because of that.
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Okay but Wraith's "Blind Warrior - White" gives it for 70 seconds and is only Rare (and both are fairly easy to trigger) and isn't an issue
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It's on surprise attacks, which, if I remember correctly, Is a basic attack 5 seconds after uncloaking, which gets harder to do against better survivors.
Regardless, Vecna and Wraith are different in strenght and abilability of this resource, so they get different timers therefore.
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But that doesn't respect the design of all other mangled addons. Killers have varying strengths and abilities, but all addons designed until that update scaled with the rarity (which is what they wanted in the first place). Dredge has an 80 seconds very rare that also gives blindness, slinger has a 60 seconds uncommon on reel hits, Chucky has a very rare 80 seconds on power hit.
There is no actual reason for Vecna to have a weaker addon. It just defies their own logic.
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Having all of them have consistent durations based on the addon rarity was never the best idea to begin with because it assumes that all of those addons are equal in strength based on their rarity which is just not the case.
Mangled addons like the ones for Wraith (surprise attack = mangled), Huntress (hatchet hit inflicts mangled), and Nurse (blink hit inflicts mangled) for example are all still pretty good even after the nerf because they're easy to apply and can be applied often. Whereas addons like Trapper's (traps inflict mangled) and Pig's (putting a RBT on a survivor makes them mangled) are a lot weaker because they're far more situational, yet they all have similar timers so those more situational addons just end up being a lot more difficult to get any value from and aren't really worth running. Whereas Nurse's mangled addon is still one of her most popular addons, probably half the Nurses I go against are using it.
Having said that, I agree that Dragontooth Dagger being only 45 seconds is not really appropriate especially for a purple addon, really any mangled effect that is less than 60 seconds is not going to get much value, if any.
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i think all mangled effects are pretty much worthless except gift of pain. if we assume that every survivor is on a hook for 35 second and if we account that every killer takes 12 second to get to a hook, this add-on will expire before survivor even get unhooked.
if we consider sloppy butcher which is 90 seconds, a survivor that is unhooked will only need wait ~45 second to heal themselves to entirely negate the perk. that is way too short and well easy to way out.
Scourge: gift of pain is only viable mangled option because its mangled effect triggers AFTER you get unhooked and it lasts whole 90 second after being unhooked. this ensures that survivor cannot avoid its effect and even they do heal. they still suffer 16% penalty. the downside of this perk is that you need run agitation to get to the hooks because you want this perk trigger every single time so putting mangled into your build as killer is twice as expensive.
any mangled effect that isn't 120 second duration = worthless.
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Eh, I think Sloppy is actually still pretty decent, that extra 20 seconds it has over most of the 70-second addons often makes the difference between it running out on the hook or not, and basic attacks is an easy enough trigger condition. Yeah, some survivors will wait the ~45 seconds after getting unhooked to heal, but not all of them will so it's still going to help sometimes.
But yes that is one of the major reasons why Dragontooth Dagger is a bad addon, more often than not it will be gone before you get off the hook and it won't do anything.
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Yeah, it's definitely a mismatch with the other similar addons at that tier.
Meanwhile…
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i disagree, i think sloppy is pretty much dead. all add-on related to mangled are pretty much irrelevant because mangled timer decays on hook and time it takes to hook a survivor makes all those effects expire. scourge hook: gift of pain+Agitation is only viable source of mangled in my opinion.
due to how expensive mangled is as perk slot combination, i only put mangled on Nurse and Spirit because they can afford perk slots to use it and they get the highest value out of said effect because mangled is like source of pseudo instant down and nurse with instant downs or spirit with instant downs is among best bonuses for them to acquire.
i was honestly hoping that leverage, a source -healing speed would be a perk that you could use as viable form of -healing speed but new leverage is worse current leverage as it only applies for 30 seconds on 1 player which is complete garbage. The only niche build that i saw that ran Leverage is Oni with Agitation+Gift of pain+Pain res+Leverage with the idea to farm blood orbs. with its latest nerf, it will be worthless even on him.
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But then you have Nurse, the strongest Killer in the game, which inflicts 70 seconds of Mangled (ok, no Hemorrhage, but Mangled is the more important one anyway) with Fragile Wheeze. (And even if this is only on Blink-Attacks, this is usually every attack from Nurse)
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yup, they went super safe with that one unfortunately. 45s is nothing.
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Wraith's entire power involves using your increased lunge post uncloak to shut down loops, get free first hits, and force out pallets. It genuinely feels harder to not get a Surprise Attack than it does to get one in most matches.
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The conclussion I ended up with is that they nerfed it so it wouldnt be the only addon used (vecna's addons suck ass)
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Nah more than half of Vecna's addons are good if not amazing; the dagger is not one of them unfortunately.
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that's just wrong. he doesn't really have a must bring s+ tier add on (which is a good thing) but his add ons are overall good and useful imo. 4/5 of his greens are great, bag of holding and yellow potion are very strong, his iris are also okay.
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I think the reason why it has a smaller duration is because the "Magic Items" are intended to be the counterplay for Vecna. If you make an addon that punishes Survivors by engaging with the counterplay, it could be deemed too strong.
When you look at other Mangled addons, it normally requires the Killer to engage with their own power in a way that requires some level of skill or effort to pull off; this addon is the opposite, the Survivors need to engage in counterplay and you dont use your power in an effective manner to get the hit.
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it normally requires the Killer to engage with their own power in a way that requires some level of skill or effort to pull off
i can't think of any other killer than pyramid head (edit: and unknown) whose power is harder to hit than an m1 so i don't agree having to hit with power is much of a challenge for almost any killer. i agree with the sentiment that it would be punishing counterplay, but it's a purple add on just for sloppy effect, and we also have for example iri umbrella badge for nemesis that exposes survivors for using a vaccine, horn for wesker that applies oblivious for spraying etc.
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Well there are two things BHVR can do to address this then:
- Keep the rarity; Increase the duration and make it only apply on hits after using Flight of the Damned or a short duration after using Mage Hand.
- Drop the rarity; Keep the effect and duration.
Also getting a hit with their power is not necessary difficult, it's moreso that it fundamentally rewards the Killer for using their power and making good plays; which either requires skill or effort. This addon design is just weird to be since it is the inverse of what we normally see, you are actively discouraged from using your power if you want to get value from this addon.
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45s is actually nothing, it could be brown or even basekit and still would do nothing so it wouldn't be a solution.
vecna is mostly an m1 killer, only 1 out of his 4 spells is damaging. the add on can be tied to "violent caster" score event (m1 within a few seconds after using a spell) instead of survivors' carried magic items so it would be more in line with wraith.
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