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Is nerfing SWF impossible?
Can't they make a system that can tell what SBMM they're in and how many survivors are in a party then adjust the game accordingly to make the match even and fair as closely as possible?
Comments
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If four average survivors are in a group together, do you think it's at all fair that their combined average would place them against the likes of Otz, Tru3, etc. Who all have thousands of hours?
If your answer to that is no, then that's your answer as to why they can't make a system like the one you're describing.
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That's the wrong way to approach the problem.
Better improve communication/information among solo players.
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Just make in-game chat a thing already jeezz and buff killer accordingly. It's not difficult, games have been doing it for years.
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On the one hand, yes, but on the other, I don't trust this community with anything more than a quickchat wheel of prewritten responses. Voice chat would be fun for exactly five minutes until it became a parade of slurs and screaming adolescents and people blowing into their mic and hearing people's background music echo three times into a bad mic for the entire game. BHVR is already poor at in-game moderation and they're not ready to handle this.
And yeah, to the OP, the problem is that most SWFs are casual friend groups that don't play noticeably better than solos, so any flat nerfs to SWFs punishes a healthy group of players before it hurts the 4stacks with jacked items and complementary perks who actually need the nerf. It's better to try and elevate solo queue to the level of information SWF gets for free, and then balance the game around that. They've already boosted solo quite a ways in this direction, though there's still plenty of room for improvement.
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No. I do not wanna be called slurs by the random. They already sandbag me and my team enough.
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Why would the developers nerf SWF? A 4-man only escapes 48% of the time—at best. They’re not even breaking even.
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I would imagine a mute feature would be available.
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They could easily make a system to nerf SWFs. They don't want to and have stated that multiple times.
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Give solos more info. Why can't they see self unhook progress, or show which perks they have to their teammates ingame?
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It isn't necessary to nerf SWF groups because killers overall are winning anyway.
The ones who aren't, hate to say it, but it's a skill issue. Actual good killers are winning regardless and they've released stats to back that up a few times now.
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Yes, but then you return to the same issue we have now.
To prevent harrassment, players are gonna mute others, which in turn means that they won’t benefit from communication. That in turn results in the issue of lacking communication still being there for them, whilst also turning the conversation into “just use voice chat 4head”. That, in turn, just alienates those who don’t want to bother with vc.
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Swfs aren't a problem. They should focus on improving SoloQ instead.
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No, there's no way to meaningfully nerf SWF without kneecapping solo.
Not that it needs to be; people most remember the one or two cracked squads who terrorized them, and not the multitudes of totally middle of the road or bad squads, if they even realized they were SWFs at all.
They need to keep buffing solo, but tbh solo is in the best shape it's been since I started playing. More stuff like the HUD upgrades will close the gap further.
But please god no voice chat. Not now, not ever. I'm not one to make such proclamations, but I would quit survivor if I had to deal with that crap.
Post edited by Thusly_Boned on7 -
Yes, even implementing in-game voice chat would obliterate Trapper (I love playing Trapper) and Hag as well.
I don't think there's necessarily a way to combat SWF strength and just because people are playing in a SWF, it doesn't mean that they're highly coordinated people playing survivor.
I've seen people talk about like, making gens go slower depending on the amount of SWF in a lobby but that would just affect the unlucky random. Even then, if you add a penalty on the SWF to do gens slower, it would probably force people to just not play the game as much. I don't think punishing SWF is an option as many people like to play with their friends. Put simply, adding in-game wheels and putting the anti-camp meter would go wonders.
I know the devs talked against allowing survivors to see each others perks, but we have so much space to utilize when we pause the game and they can literally be there on the fly to help survivors know not to do certain things - such as unhooking a Deliverance player.
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You can't nerf swf without indirectly nerfing soloq.
You can't buff soloq without indirectly buffing swf.
The only way to "nerf" swf - adding any communication program (such as Discord) to prohibited programs while you play the game. Because the ONLY PRON of swf over soloq - communication tool\program.
But… It's impossible.
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There's simply no way to mess with comms on the consoles. The chats parties are entirely separate from whatever game is being played, so there's no way they could even know let alone block it.
And I'm pretty sure Microsoft prohibits any game they accept to interfere with comms in the first place. I imagine Sony does the same, though it's irrelevant for the Switch as they have no built in comms.
Couldn't tell ya about that Discord thingy.
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Any buff they give SoloQ buffs SWF more. It follows that removing stuff from SWF would mean removing it from SoloQ too.
Yes. This is impossible.
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Yes, there are plenty of ways to nerf SWF. But if you even dare suggest this, people will claim that you are "punishing people for playing with their friends".
Removing an unfair advantage is not "punishment".
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This simply is not true. You can make repair speed lower for 4-man SWF teams, for example. Solo queue and even up to 3-man SWF would not be affected. That's just one ideas. I'm sure the devs/community could come up with plenty of others.
We all know it's never going to happen though because 4-man SWF having easy matches where they can coordinate to knock out gens quickly and/or bully the killer is a big part of what keeps this game popular. Killer players are willing to continue playing the game because 4-man SWF are not a majority of matches. So they deal with the occasional unfair match or try to identify and dodge 4-man SWF in lobbies. As long as there are enough killer players willing to play the game, there's no reason for BHVR to change anything.
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It is punishing people for playing with their friends though. Is slapping them with debuffs not punishing them for playing with their friends?
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The problem with SWF is voice coms. Everyone knows that.
When one survivor can tell the other one who is on the other side of the map that killer is coming and the remaining ones know where killer is, the gens get repaired uncontested because it's physically impossible to be everywhere at the same time for many killers out of the selection pool.
At this rate, voice coms should be addressed somehow as they give an unfair advantage. It's the same if killer suddenly got a global wallhack or LP perk that last forever.
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bhvr has a official discord for dbd so that people find friends to play with one another. They want more people playing their game not less. Thats never changing
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It's voice over coms issue. Nobody is against organizing a party match together. Being able to talk during the game and sharing crucial information though clearly is unfair as it's currently not normally possible solely through the game. In fact, you can already organize a party match without a need for discord if you'd like as game allows you to do so.
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The issue you're describing is not an automatic benefit conferred by voice comms. You're talking about coordinating. This isn't something that happens with your average SWF.
Your average SWF uses basic callouts with information like who the killer is and what perks they are or might be running, but they can't really communicate where the killer is specifically without a callout system that has been discussed prior to the match. They can use landmarks like Shack and Main, but they couldn't tell you which jungle gym on which side of the map the killer is being looped at.
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Once you start getting SWF above average, which will also likely use VO coms ( I'm not talking about high skilled SWFs and beyond, those will very likely boost their chances even further with VO ) you will notice the significant difference in the behavior and playstyle of survivors.
The average SWF you describe is pretty much on-par with SoloQ as those indeed don't share info that much mid game and could be goofing around or talking about something else. It's MM job to find you opponents who are close to your skill and the higher it is, the more impact shall VO communication have if it is being used by people on survivor side.
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Just give a comms wheel like most other games have. Evil Dead had a decent one.
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That only further emphasizes my point that it is, in fact, a coordination issue. Not exactly something you can do anything about. Players who focus on coordination are often worse in other areas.
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Yes, it is impossible.
I've always thought of SWF as an unsolvable problem. Players are doing nothing wrong, they are just playing with their friends, but DBD will always remain a hide and seek survival horror game. The game is built around a certain lack of information, which is the very reason why we have perks that give the player select amounts of information, such as Alert and Bond. Also the reason why the old Object of Obsession had a risky downside to it.
Using comms gives a huge advantage where it shouldn't, but I don't think anything can be done about it.
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Nerfing SWF, not so much. Bringing solo que players up to SWF levels or enabling them to be much stronger is definitely possible.
People just don't want to add the 1 thing that will help and thats voice comms.
This community is incredibly against it (cause they fear the toxicity) however every MP game has it enabled, whether its LoL, Valorant, R6S, or even OW2.
Hell, OW2 even lets you know right when you load into a new match that your 'voice chat might be recorded in case of toxic or abusive behavior'. R6S literally has a commendation system built in now so the more toxic you are, the harder it is to get into matches, you get heavier punishments/timeouts, can't play ranked mode, etc. LoL has a hard stance on it too, where if enough people report you for being toxic or abusive in chat, you'll be banned temporarily for 14+ days. 14 being minimum.
Voice chat doesn't even have to be a mandatory thing, it can be completely optional if you want to try and communicate with your team or not (cause you're introverted as heck or just don't want to take the chance of talking to someone whose toxic). Just like in almost every other game. Make it completely optional.
Everything else added is just a lil bandaid fix and that bandaid wears out fast and falls off.
And the sad thing is, there has never even been a test for it. No one has any idea besides their assumptions. And ofc its easy to run with that idea cause you'll believe the bad outweighs the good but if done right, it can definitely be an addition and not a detriment.
BHVR isn't the type of company to do this though. So SWF will reign supreme till the end.
Also no one should be FORCED to play or make 'friends' on the DbD discord. Saying 'oh just play with friends or find a group to play with' isn't a good suggestion. I like solo que b/c I like the idea of loading into a match with 3 strangers and trying to make it out together. I've played in an SWF before and it was not fun. There was almost no challenge, unless we ran into some hella sweaty Nurse or Blight (back then).
So yea, no voice comms - SWF stays ahead easily. Its the one thing I am always in favor for, despite this community saying they don't want it.
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DBD started out as a hide and seek type game, but over the years that "lack of information" design philosophy has slowly and gradually been removed. It's far more chase-oriented now.
Comms doesn't confer nearly as much of an advantage as players are led to believe. A lot of it comes down to how coordinated the players are. A group of four new players using comms isn't going to automatically make them the SWF death squad from hell. Experience and coordination are what makes voice chat strong, rather than voice chat itself.
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I don't think that is the case, to be honest. Stealth and the hide and seek playstyle are still extremely important aspects of DBD and so is the lack of information. A survivor shouldn't be aware of the killer's precise location most of the time, and if they are then there should be a risk (like OoO).
A group of four new players using comms isn't going to automatically make them the SWF death squad from hell. Experience and coordination are what makes voice chat strong, rather than voice chat itself.
I second this.
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The difference in escape rate is less than 10% for all levels of mmr and for all numbers for swf members. 90% of swfs are just friends playing together, and enjoying the game. They play like or if not worse than soloq teammmates since their focus is alturism.
For the other 10% well…💔
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I've always believed the biggest advantage to SWF isn't the comms directly but the midigating of the randomness of solo queue players.
You know going in it they're doing challenges, that they'll be far less likely to sandbag, and that most likely they'll come back for you. Also you end up with players having similar mindsets going in, and over time you learn your mate's strengths and weaknesses and tendencies. All of this is super strong imo, and really cannot be replicated in solo.
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It's not just parts of the community against comms being added in. The devs have said repeatedly over the years the have no plans to add it in for a couple of reasons, although I don't really agree with them myself.
First is the language barriers around the globe. This reason has a small amount of merit, but so many other games have made it work anyway. Then there's the prevalence of various comms already available on most platforms, such as Discord and the built-in chats on most of the consoles.
Imo they simply don't want the additional burden of having to police and moderate comms within the game itself.
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How can stealth still be important? There’s a killer aura perk for every single thing a survivor does (or doesn’t do). They’re releasing one now that shows a survivor’s aura for 10 seconds if they’re near a dropped pallet. Wallhacks are antithetical to hide and seek—at least for the hiders.
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Some people are going to perceive it that way. If someone perceives reducing a major advantage as "punishment", I can't do anything about the way they perceive that. But by perceiving it that way, you're only looking at it from your point of view. Whatever side you're on, you're being intentionally dishonest if you claim that coordinating on comms, especially on a 4-man team, is not a significant advantage. Debuffs are one potential way to help offset that significant advantage.
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Yea and no one's really surprised by it. They don't even police their in-game reports unless you have proof of someone hacking, cheating/exploiting or using truly abusive behavior. They put the responsibility on the player reporting, so if something does happen, you need to be recording it. And most people don't record their matches or have anything set up for that.
Their report system is a complete joke, it only tracks pre-game lobby chat and end-game lobby chat. Anything that happens in the actual match isn't captured UNLESS you so happen to be recording it yourself. Which like I said, almost no average player does that.
If they can't even do a report system properly (its pretty sad since this game came out years ago) and they JUST started introducing other game modes to the game, I have absolutely 0 faith in them pulling off voice comms. I know BHVR will never add it, sadly.
But thats what they should do if they ever want to help solo que players. Truly.
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I agree that we have way too much aura reading these days, yes, but you won't go against full aura builds all the time. Many killers prefer gen defense, and against those builds it is still very much possible to hide and work around them.
Well, it is how I usually play DBD. I am not crazy for chases like some survivors are.
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It's not being dishonest at all. It isn't incredibly advantageous. If it was, giving comms to a group of four new players would instantly turn them into the SWF death squad from hell. That doesn't happen though.
Coordinating on comms is only advantageous under very specific conditions. Very poor coordination, which you see in your average SWF, is equivalent to playing against Solos. They can communicate basic information like who the killer is, what perks and add-ons they are/might be running, and a rough idea of where they are on the map. They can't, however, tell you precisely where they are, which pallets have been used, which direction they're going in, where they're going to go down, etc.
The vast majority of SWFs have coordination akin to lemmings. They don't go in to every match with a particular game plan, synergistic builds, optimized playstyles, knowledge of every possible tile spawn and how to run each loop for maximum efficiency, etc. etc. They go in looking to have a good time bantering with friends.
Debuffs are not offsetting any advantage. It's punishing people for playing with their friends. It's dishonest to claim otherwise.
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I agree their reporting system puts way too much burden onto the players. From what I remember it's too late to add it in-game now, that due to how the game was originally coded back in 2016 it is near impossible now.
Maybe in a potential DBD2 somewhere down the road, or recoding the existing game from scratch. But I think they said they have no plans for either option.
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