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Decisive Strike should deactivate for protection hits or being in a locker
So it cannot be weaponized by toxic survivors
Comments
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Nope
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Protection hits aren't in the control of the Survivor. I can hit the rescuer en-route to hook, then hit the unhooked Survivor during the final frames of unhook animation delay, and that counts as a protection hit, even though they couldn't even move yet before getting hit and Deep Wounded.
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it would be so easy to force a DS disable whilst still tunneling though.
injure unhooker during the unhook animation, hit the unhooked's basekit bt. congrats, no DS anymore.
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This is not a good idea.
You can easily hit the Survivor unhooking, and then wait for them to finish the unhook, and go for the unhooked Survivor since them being close enough will count for a Protection Hit; thus it would be useless and not prevent tunneling, in fact, the counter for it would literally promote tunneling immediately off the hook instead of going for the unhooker. Decisive Strike would be a dead perk.
And Survivor entering a Locker to "force" DS is hardly an issue. You can ignore them, you have the choice as to rather you actively want to be hit by DS or not. It reduces the Killer's pressure if they decide to wait out DS instead of pulling them out since they can no longer slug the Survivor and go for someone else, but it's not "weaponizing" DS, it's using an anti-tunnel perk strategically to make tunneling less effective.
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idk if I think its still bad the way its weaponized now, sure its annoying but they have to trick you into opening the locker.
Nightlight says its used 12% of the time since last patch, idd call that fine.
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Yeah, it's pretty bad at high elos. Most people are running Unbreakable + Decisive + Dead Hard. Not really much you can do when they're deliberately running behind the person you're trying to chase.
I think it should deactivate for protection hits after the initial endurance / speed boost from being unhooked happens.
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Yeah, that's where I'm, at
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Anti tunnel stuff like DS and OTR should just auto deactivate if you down and hook someone else because at that point you are not tunneling and if you just happen to spot and down that person again in a short time from what should be then your momentum rising you lose it because of a perk giving them a 2nd chance. You could potentially go from having 2 hooks at once to then being hit by DS or swing at an OTR into the other person being unhooked and now you have nothing. Huge momentum shift.
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Unless they completely re-do the way the game detects protection hits (and "chase" for other reasons, but that's a different discussion) I don't want anything to turn off based on them. I don't know about you, but not making any effort to take protection hits while being genuinely tunneled, then having your DS turn off because you just happened to be hit near an injured Dwight healing with a medkit that neither you or the killer even knew was there would be an absolutely horrible interaction. And this isn't stopped by giving a grace period to avoid the obvious problems that'd pop up without the grace period (just force trades = ez free DS deactivation every time). And as bonus spice on top it's even an additional solo-swf gap! Swf can just say "steer clear if injured until my ds runs out" or something, while solo just has to hope there isn't someone injured around the corner they're about to round.
The entire point of conspicious actions is that they're 100% in the survivor's control, it's an active decision that they make, them announcing "Yes game, I agree to having my perk(s) turn off" by touching a gen or something. Protection hits are not like that at all unless they make the system for detecting them a lot smarter than "if close to injured survivor, protection hit".
For the same reason I personally wouldn't mind if lockers disabled it, because last I checked you can't be forcibly stuffed into a locker or stumble into it 😄 that is an actively taken decision.
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I still dont even know why the unhooked survivor doesnt just lose collision at the very least. This would already solve tons of problems.
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Protection hits sometimes happen unintentionally. Your idea is flawed too. You can can just hit the unhooked survivor, take away their Decisive Strike and carry on with tunneling so the perk is rendered useless. I believe Decisive Strike is in a good spot and shouldn't get any changes at the moment.
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I love how everyone in this game is high MMR
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forcing a hook trade and then going after unhooked survivor is still tunneling and fairly easy to accomplish. Absolutely 0 reason these perks should deactivate in that scenario
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From protection hit? No.
From locker? Sure.
What I really wanna see is attempts at flashlighting being considered a conspicuous action.
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While it's not an exact comparison I was ranked anywhere from Diamond II to Diamond IV over about six seasons of playing League of Legends.
I may not be the best at whatever I play, but I tend to get pretty dang close.
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I mean we are talking about 2 completely different games, different mechanics, different concepts of being 'good', etc…
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That's why I said it's not an exact comparison, but there is some overlap however different they may be.
Regardless though, back to the topic at hand... I sincerely don't think people realize how bad it is.
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These are two separate games from the last few days.
For anyone who doesn't understand, this is why we're getting annoyed. I'm not trying to tunnel people, but when the person who was just unhooked is intentionally running behind the person I'm trying to chase every single time I'm essentially being expected to double the number of chases in the game.
Sure that's two people not on gens, but there's still two others that are.
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I don't think either of those are really problems, honestly.
Everyone's already pointed out the big problem with disabling DS on protection hit, but I'll go one further and point out that someone trying to bait you into eating their DS via taking protection hits can be 100% countered by simply ignoring them. Hit them if they're blocking a doorway, walk through them, ignore them. Not an issue whatsoever.
I have seen some arguments about the locker thing that are a little more reasonable, like someone going down under a pallet and their recently unhooked teammate hopping in a locker close by, but honestly I think that's a niche enough interaction that it's probably fine. Maybe if it becomes an epidemic, but until then, not really worth caring about.
When it comes to DS, the only issue I can think of is that getting a save isn't considered a Conspicuous Action. Change that, and there's little to be worried about.
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I wish I could ignore them, that's the point.
Unfortunately they're forcing us to go through them because they have safety from Decisive Strike, and that's the problem. I don't think you realize how much time can actually be wasted by people taking hits. If they have Dead Hard or Off the Record and can take two hits, that's even more time wasted.
Even one body block is enough for the other survivor to make it to the next loop or pallet - that two second recovery time from hitting someone can extend a chase by thirty seconds or more. Is it an issue once? Not much. But is it an issue when everyone is running the same build? Absolutely.
There's also the issue I've run into of chasing someone off a gen but someone I just unhooked is also hanging around but hopping into a locker when I get close. That's a lose-lose situation for me as a killer: I can't pick them up or I'll eat the Decisive Strike and I can't leave them or they'll finish the gen, so I generally end up sitting there counting to 60.
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The thing about that is that you're sort of missing the other half of the trade, though, and that's the half that's in the killer's favour.
So, let's assume two survivors are coordinating to pull this off, you've got one that you're actually trying to chase and the one who was recently unhooked trying to bodyblock. You point out, correctly, that it makes the chase take longer, but what you're neglecting is that the killer gets more pressure than normal from that chase.
Chasing one survivor lowers the team's efficiency by 25% for the duration of that chase, and you should generally always want to have one survivor occupied like that. The reason it's so strong for the killer to already be in a chase before the unhook happens is because that situation lowers the team's efficiency by 75% — you have one in chase, one on the hook, one going for the save, leaving only one to do generators.
If we assume that you're chasing two survivors at once, you're lowering the team's efficiency by 50% instead of the usual 25%. Sure, there's an amount of time the chase could last where that still ends up being not a good trade for you, but by the same token, you have the freedom for that chase to last noticeably longer than usual because it's dragging more survivors off generators than usual. This is increased exponentially if the unhooked survivor is foolish enough to actually get downed, because then you get to finish your chase and go find someone else with a slug on the ground and a survivor on the hook to further increase your pressure.
It might give survivors some short-term gains, but it also gives the killer an opening to get a much stronger long-term gain if they make the right choices.
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As you noted, the ideal situation is only having one person free to do gens.
Chasing two people still leaves two on the gens... That's not good for me.
You can't reliably slug either. If you look at the screenshots I posted of survivor loadouts, Decisive is being paired with Unbreakable quite often which means you're gaining nothing more than the ten or so seconds it takes for them to recover.
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It's good compared to the alternative, which is three people on gens.
As for the last part, survivors burning through their Unbreakable when you didn't even want to slug them and they brought it on themselves is still pretty darn good, in my opinion.
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If you think people running DS/DH is bad then play a few solo q games and you'll quickly realize why a lot of people opt to use these perks; being tunneled is a very likely outcome in a match for any of the survivors.
Deducing if someone has DS is really easy because they do exactly what you're talking about, body block. You can usually play around this (remember, you're faster) and get the other person or down the DS user and slug for ~60 secs. This is slowdown because now his team needs to decide: do they go for the pick up and risk you snowballing them because you managed to down the other survivor quickly and return to the slugged survivor or do they continue their gens and allow themselves to get 2 people hooked? Up til now, that's 2 people not on gens and you have the possibility to convert this to 2 hooks while forcing at least 1 survivor, if not both, to come coordinate a rescue. From a micro perspective, it looks like they're winning by body blocking and delaying the down(s) but from a macro perspective, you're in a better position to swing the game in your favor by downing the body blocker and the other guy, tunneling the DS guy out, etc.
Nothing is guaranteed and you could end up just hooking 1 of them at best, getting outplayed by both and getting no one (if DS surv is body blocking though you can just down him and wait to rehook him, so worst case you can at least get him and let the other guy go). Either way, you're taking a risk and so are they. DS guarantees nothing, it's one time use, use it in the wrong place and you're gonna go right back down if there's no resource nearby for you to play. If you waste it body blocking then you're writing your own ticket to being tunneled out because the killer is gonna want you gone and he knows your DS is done. Personally, in solo q when I do run DS I'm certainly not wasting it body blocking for someone else because I want value from DS for myself, not for my teammate; using it on my teammate ensures I'll go right back on hook.
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I play both killer and survivor pretty evenly. I know the problems both sides face, and that's why I try my best not to tunnel when I play killer.
What we're talking about in this thread though isn't DS being used for its intended purpose of deterring tunneling. What we're concerned about is how it's being weaponized in matches.
Again, I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing. I bait out Dead Hards. I don't fall for obvious baits. I have the count going in my head after someone is unhooked so I know when it's safe to hook them again. But when the survivors I'm being matched with are on a pretty even level with me, chases can be greatly extended when someone gets enough time to make it to the next pallet or loop thanks to a body block.
If you aren't aware as well, there's been a bug in the game for ages now that does not allow you to lunge past a survivor. The game forces short M1 taps if you're close enough to someone, so it's much more difficult to get around someone than you think.
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Deactivate on protection hit - Can't do that, too much opportunity to kill the point of the perk.
Deactivate on entering locker - Should do that, the idea is 'anti-tunnel,' not 'allowed to be stupid.'
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