Mori is toxic and you ready to talk abt it
Mori can be applied to the last survivor. There are at least two problems with this.
1. A survivor can be killed by this toxic method even if he was never hooked. I get that you guys like killers and all that, but the game needs to smell a little bit of balance, right?
2. You, the developers, if by some miracle you are reading this post, which I highly doubt, are literally cultivating bad sportsmanship by offering to kill the last survivor for free. Instead of encouraging a "hatch for the last surv standing" culture you're literally telling killers "dude we love that you tryhard and slug players for 4K".
3. Thanks to you and this "wonderful" update, playing as a survivor has become even more sad, and even more so being the last one standing.
The whole mori mechanic and the whole phenomenon is toxic. How could you think that such content wouldn't be abused and used for the most vile purposes? Oh yeah, you probably thought "let the players watch a cool mini-show" but that's far from true. In fact, mori is a manifestation of pure hatred and disrespect to player. In particular, it becomes even more vile because the survivor can do nothing about it? There is not a single mechanism that would be able to protect the survivor from the toxic mori.
Mori is also OP because the killer literally gets immunity from hook sabotage, blinding and other tricks that survivors use to save their teammate. Before you make a conclusion about anything, please read the following: I play both sides and I never use mori. I even try to ignore it as much as possible in the blood web. And I don't understand how anyone can like mori, but okay, everyone has their own opinion on this matter, I'm sharing mine.
So why is mori toxic? (attention here - MY opinion)
First of all, as I said, it is simply disrespectful to the player. Yes, this is a game about killing and surviving, but not about complete control of one side (killers) over the other (survivors). Although in today's reality it is, but that is not the point. Killers can do whatever they want to survivors, which they regularly do: make them bleed for 10 minutes, give false hope and then kill them and are very proud of it, and so on. As a player for a survivor, you have no control over yourself. You are completely dependent on how good a player you got on the killer and this is not normal, this is not how the game should work in my opinion. When I play as a survivor I mostly play solo and you can imagine the level of frustration that I get after each match. Not only killers have control but also "teammates" too. They can just sell you, not unhook you, bodyblock you, and a lot of other things that you won't have control over. But I've already gone into that. The point is that giving people too much power over other people is a bad idea from the start (and let me remind you that you're not playing against soulless bots, you're playing against real people who also have emotions just like you). Those who have too much power over others start to behave disgustingly, which we see in many killer players. I won't bring up tunneling and slugging here, otherwise I could talk about it for too long. The topic here is mori and mori is toxic. You can't resist it, it's OP and just bad sportsmanship.
Possible solutions to problems: just add an offering/ability or whatever so that the survivor has a CHOICE and a CHANCE. And that's it. It's that easy and simple. Mori-enjoyers won't take the offering/ability if they want to be killed that way (people can be weird, especially in this game), and those who don't want that will finally get a chance to die normally. I personally prefer to hide in the nooks and crannies of the map and wait for myself to bleed out than to be killed by mori. But unfortunately, this does not always work.
P.S and would be ofc nice if killers can't mori last surv who don't have 2 hook stage.
Comments
-
I fully agree with the sentiment here, though I don't want to be hostile to the devs:
Hi devs! Please know that some of us have stopped playing survivor or even spending money on the game because of this :) The game's continued success requires us to want to do those things. We can be friends! Devs + survs forever. BFFFs <3
Also, it seems like this system encourages getting 4k regardless of how unsportsmanlike you have to be to do it. Tunnel? Proxy camp? Slug for 4k? All ways to get to that juicy mori!
7 -
Mori is now hatred. The system is encouraging getting 4K and it's bad. Should the killer go for love and cuddles?
Are you two Sweet Baby Inc. employees?13 -
Thanks for the insults :)
Really though, there's already enough tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k even before the finisher mori was introduced.
I'm someone who plays killer and I think those tactics make the game worse. Being tunneled genuinely sucks, as does getting slugged for a 4k. I think we'd all benefit if players recognized that BHVR doesn't have a way to moderate those behaviors because sometimes they do come as natural game progression (e.g. if you happen to run into a survivor who just got off the hook in the early game). But there are people who deliberately use those tactics.
And tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k are considered boring, unfun, bm, or even toxic by a lot of the community. The game would be a better experience for a lot of people if players wouldn't engage in cheap tactics like those at the expense of other players. And I suspect some people will do those things to get their reward mori at the end of the match.
3 -
I don't agree with much of the framing in this post, but I am also a bit disappointed by the Mori Update because nothing is really made better in the game by this update other than making Killers hungry for that sweet extra bloodpoint bonus, instead of playing for fun and joy.
Read the original idea here:
Looking at what was discarded, I'm not happy.
I would have liked the LAST STANDING effect for the last Survivor only, not the killer, - to fight slugging.What I liked most was that the Mori was gonna be an automatic end of the match, last down, boom mori, making vengence slugging impossible but no, the Killer has to initiate the Mori still. You can still be the worst human being to the Survivor and waste their time.
3 -
The way this post is worded is odd. "to kill the last survivor for free"
Its not free. The killer hooked you twice. Its endgame, and you're downed….What more do you want the killer to do? What difference does it make in that moment if the killer moried you versus slappin you on a rusty hook….I mean really….
13 -
Agreed that some of the wording is awkward. OP's opinions are definitely valid, but you're also right that the mori isn't free; the killer does have to get the last survivor down.
Just want to note that the finisher mori doesn't require the last survivor to have been hooked at all.
7 -
I totally get it. As someone who plays both sides, it's really weird to see the power tilt so much towards the killers (and it's certainly not because the devs are playing as killers). I'm just tired of feeling like a helpless punching bag for the killer's pleasure. I'm a player just like him and I deserve to have fun too, but alas I can't because the survivor is just a piece of meat for the killer's entertainment. The peak is that I can just be brutally and humiliatingly killed without ever being hooked, when I played really well and therefore remained the only survivor. And what do I get for it? We all know.
3 -
I will not answer seriously to some silly trolling like this. You will make discussion with arguments or have fun on ur own.
1 -
>Its not free. The killer hooked you twice
Damn maybe u wanna read post huh? Just at first paragraph i wrote "u can be moried even when u was never hooked".
1 -
I already answered everything in the post itself. The killer gets a free kill. Why? Because mori eliminates the ability to save the survivor by blinding the killer, stun with a palette, sabotaging the hook, etc. What other arguments should I give?
1 -
Well said :)
1 -
I'm sorry but I'm not trolling. You chose a peculiar wording for your post, aiming for a harsh retoric that points the finger against a game mechanic and the playerbase: hatred. It's a strong word, but it's related to YOU and how YOU perceive the mori. Just you. It's how you see it. Maybe on the other side of the screen that's a cool dude who enjoy playing with others, but you chose the word "hatred".
As I said, it's a strong word. Someone already said that:
Its not free. The killer hooked you twice.
And that's true. I'm sorry, but it's true. You can carry a better mori fo course but, honestly, WHY. And btw…
Damn maybe u wanna read post huh?
Seems pretty harsh to me as an answer of someone who wanna talk about it.
9 -
- The argument is meaningless. We can talk for a long time about "it's not what it seems, it's just you who sees it". Especially when the killer is standing over you, constantly using an attack on you, nodding his head, picking you up, carrying you to the hook, then throwing you on the floor to do a mori. Yeah, dude, you're right, there's no hate or toxicity in that.
2. I have already answered this.
3. What do I not want to talk about? I still don't understand. And yes, I can counter with the same thing you tried to counter me with in your first address - everything is not what it seems to you, it's just your perception of my words. In fact, I am incredibly kind and nice.
0 - The argument is meaningless. We can talk for a long time about "it's not what it seems, it's just you who sees it". Especially when the killer is standing over you, constantly using an attack on you, nodding his head, picking you up, carrying you to the hook, then throwing you on the floor to do a mori. Yeah, dude, you're right, there's no hate or toxicity in that.
-
"A survivor can be killed by this toxic method even if he was never hooked. I get that you guys like killers and all that, but the game needs to smell a little bit of balance, right?"
You have to be the last survivor. Not last one standing or not on hook, but last survivor period. Hook stages are irrelevant; you wouldn't even get a chance to 4%. You're dead. Case closed.
"You, the developers, if by some miracle you are reading this post, which I highly doubt, are literally cultivating bad sportsmanship by offering to kill the last survivor for free. Instead of encouraging a "hatch for the last surv standing" culture you're literally telling killers "dude we love that you tryhard and slug players for 4K"."
If you wanna give hatch, go ahead. But you're the killer. You cannot expect the devs to balance the game around NOT accomplishing their goal.
And then there's this discussion about a mori being hatred? I... no. I'm not going to bother.
12 -
You’re reading waaaay too far into a cool mechanic for finishing survivors. It’s horror game, maybe switch to a different game if you can’t handle being moried? I love to mori survivors and so do others so it’s not going anywhere.
11 -
In this particular thread it seems there's a lot of strong opinions. I think it's important to acknowledge that both you and op have valid thoughts. And we probably shouldn't just tell op to go play a different game. I guess that's what BHVR wants with these forums, to let everyone talk about the pros and cons of stuff so BHVR can see people's thoughts. Having said that, it's also totally valid that you enjoy being able to mori :)
I just wanted to make sure we don't belittle OP's opinion. glhfnm!
0 -
nah it's fine
2 -
1. A survivor can be killed by this toxic method even if he was never hooked. I get that you guys like killers and all that, but the game needs to smell a little bit of balance, right?
first of all, calling moris toxic is on the same level as calling flashlight saves toxic.
second, i mean…what exactly is unbalanced about it? Even before, when you were the last survivor alive, what could you do if killer downs you before getting a hatch? Get hooked and instantly get sacrificed, or killer might carry you to the hatch. With finisher mori, situation is literally the same lol.
2. You, the developers, if by some miracle you are reading this post, which I highly doubt, are literally cultivating bad sportsmanship by offering to kill the last survivor for free. Instead of encouraging a "hatch for the last surv standing" culture you're literally telling killers "dude we love that you tryhard and slug players for 4K".
welcome to literally every PvP game in existence, is it toxic if it's in nature of people to play to win? It's bad sportsmanship to win?
Winning means you are sweaty tryhard?
The whole mori mechanic and the whole phenomenon is toxic. How could you think that such content wouldn't be abused and used for the most vile purposes? Oh yeah, you probably thought "let the players watch a cool mini-show" but that's far from true. In fact, mori is a manifestation of pure hatred and disrespect to player. In particular, it becomes even more vile because the survivor can do nothing about it? There is not a single mechanism that would be able to protect the survivor from the toxic mori.
again, this kind of logic is as ridiculous as "flashlights are toxic" one. How can you abuse it? And even funnier, what makes you so sensitive about moris lol, the fact that the imaginary characters kills other imaginary character in a "disrespectful" way? LOL
Mori is also OP because the killer literally gets immunity from hook sabotage, blinding and other tricks that survivors use to save their teammate. Before you make a conclusion about anything, please read the following: I play both sides and I never use mori. I even try to ignore it as much as possible in the blood web. And I don't understand how anyone can like mori, but okay, everyone has their own opinion on this matter, I'm sharing mine.
so…mori is OP because killer gets immunity to an already unhealthy game mechanic, but btw, who can sabotage the hook when you are the last survivor left? Papa John?
So why is mori toxic? (attention here - MY opinion)
First of all, as I said, it is simply disrespectful to the player. Yes, this is a game about killing and surviving, but not about complete control of one side (killers) over the other (survivors). Although in today's reality it is, but that is not the point. Killers can do whatever they want to survivors, which they regularly do: make them bleed for 10 minutes, give false hope and then kill them and are very proud of it, and so on. As a player for a survivor, you have no control over yourself. You are completely dependent on how good a player you got on the killer and this is not normal, this is not how the game should work in my opinion. When I play as a survivor I mostly play solo and you can imagine the level of frustration that I get after each match. Not only killers have control but also "teammates" too. They can just sell you, not unhook you, bodyblock you, and a lot of other things that you won't have control over. But I've already gone into that. The point is that giving people too much power over other people is a bad idea from the start (and let me remind you that you're not playing against soulless bots, you're playing against real people who also have emotions just like you). Those who have too much power over others start to behave disgustingly, which we see in many killer players. I won't bring up tunneling and slugging here, otherwise I could talk about it for too long. The topic here is mori and mori is toxic. You can't resist it, it's OP and just bad sportsmanship.
darling, fatalities exist since first Mortal Kombat game was released and nobody was acting like they shouldn't exist because they are "disrespectful towards the other player", you are just meddling your personal feelings into it + taking it way too seriously.
Nobody is having too much power over you.Possible solutions to problems: just add an offering/ability or whatever so that the survivor has a CHOICE and a CHANCE. And that's it. It's that easy and simple. Mori-enjoyers won't take the offering/ability if they want to be killed that way (people can be weird, especially in this game), and those who don't want that will finally get a chance to die normally. I personally prefer to hide in the nooks and crannies of the map and wait for myself to bleed out than to be killed by mori. But unfortunately, this does not always work.
????????????
P.S and would be ofc nice if killers can't mori last surv who don't have 2 hook stage.
dear god, you would be killed by sacrifice anyways, killer doesn't instantly become able to mori you as soon as all other survivors die, killer has to down you first.
10 -
This is entitlement incarnate. Sincerely, there is nothing inherently toxic about mori'ing; you the individual believe that. It saves the killer what, 10 seconds of walking you to a hook? Prevents a save they can just defend from? Survivor mains are so full of double standards its insane. If you play well as survivor and finish 3 gens with less than 4 hooks states, you don't think "gosh the killer is having a hard time maybe we should slow down" you think "haha I'm having fun, this killer is bad!". If you escape you tbag at gates for no reason, if things don't go your way you give up on hook. But when killers tunnel, camp, mori; thats not allowed, they arent allowed to win, to have fun, to beat you. Reflect on that.
11 -
>You have to be the last survivor. Not last one standing or not on hook, but last survivor period. Hook stages are irrelevant; you wouldn't even get a chance to 4%. You're dead. Case closed.
I don't understand at all why this was said and where is the argument here? I have already repeated a hundred times that it is unfair and the OP in one click destroys a survivor who has never been on the hook. I, as a player who often remains the last one alive and who played so well that he has never been on the hook, do not deserve to be killed in this way. PERSONALLY I do not like this and that is why I would like to have the ability to prevent mori on myself. And this is a completely reasonable desire and if it offends you, then something is wrong with you.
>If you wanna give hatch, go ahead. But you're the killer. You cannot expect the devs to balance the game around NOT accomplishing their goal.Giving the hatch to the last survivor is not a must, but it is considered good manners. I mean, instead of making the game more about fun and less about tryharding, the developers are doing the opposite. Before 2020, the game was fun, few people really sweated in a game about survival and killing. But now we are here.
1 -
I mean, I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but I don't think something is wrong with the person you responded to for having a different opinion. Both of you have valid viewpoints :)
0 -
>first of all, calling moris toxic is on the same level as calling flashlight saves toxic.
second, i mean…what exactly is unbalanced about it? Even before, when you were the last survivor alive, what could you do if killer downs you before getting a hatch? Get hooked and instantly get sacrificed, or killer might carry you to the hatch. With finisher mori, situation is literally the same lol.
I think mori is toxic and I've already explained why I think so above. If you're too lazy to reread my answers, that's not my problem, I won't repeat the same thing over and over, we're not in kindergarten.
At the very least, being sacrificed sounds a lot more fun than being humiliated by some dumb doll, right? (just as an example). If you like dying that way, go ahead, no one's stopping you. I'm speaking here on my own behalf (and fortunately I'm not the only one) who doesn't like the fact that mori mechanics are inevitable for a survivor. Oh, and you mentioned saving yourself with a flashlight? FYI, if you haven't noticed, the killer has a cool ability called "lightborne". If you don't want to be blinded, you use it. But what if you don't want to be killed with mori? That's right, your wishes don't matter, you're just a meat survivor.
>welcome to literally every PvP game in existence, is it toxic if it's in nature of people to play to win? It's bad sportsmanship to win?Winning means you are sweaty tryhard?
- Calling survival horror PvP is, of course, too strong. I see a problem with you - you see the game as a platform for competition, and not as a game that should, in theory, bring pleasure from the process.
2. Yes. The culture of games "I play to win at any cost" is stupid, toxic and sweaty. You will not be able to change my mind. If you only get pleasure from winning and not from the process, then I think you should not play games.
>again, this kind of logic is as ridiculous as "flashlights are toxic" one. How can you abuse it? And even funnier, what makes you so sensitive about moris lol, the fact that the imaginary characters kills other imaginary character in a "disrespectful" way? LOL
I already answered this. I answered why mori is toxic and how players abuse it. Before you write something like that, make sure you didn't miss 90% of everything I wrote in the post and in the comments.
>so…mori is OP because killer gets immunity to an already unhealthy game mechanic, but btw, who can sabotage the hook when you are the last survivor left? Papa John?I think at this point it's time for you to take a breather and drink some tea, since your text is so emotional that you clearly don't see that your comment is completely devoid of logic and connection with what I wrote. Mori - OP, I wrote why. Because it deprives the team of the opportunity to save a teammate. The topic of Mori on the last one standing has nothing to do with this, if you suddenly didn't notice. This is a different topic. Do you understand? And I also answered what's wrong with this.
>darling, fatalities exist since first Mortal Kombat game was released and nobody was acting like they shouldn't exist because they are "disrespectful towards the other player", you are just meddling your personal feelings into it + taking it way too seriously.
Nobody is having too much power over you.Oh, we're getting personal? Okay my cute little boy, or whatever you want me to call you, my sweetie? I can be as cringey as you are, but okay, I'll try to be serious. So. MK and similar games are PvP, it's a competition. You're one on one with your opponent on equal terms. Can you say the same about DBD? If so... well? My condolences.
"You take the game too seriously" says a person who can't enjoy the game unless he wins. Dude, if someone spits in your face, I would advise you to just kill your feelings. It's not that he's bad, it's that you take everything that way. The argument of such a horn does not stand up to any criticism at all and has no relation to reality, because it has long been obvious to everyone that people - SURPRISE - are living beings who experience emotions and games also cause emotions, oh my god, who would have thought! In particular, the behavior of other players towards you can also cause emotions, both positive and negative, which is normal. I am more than sure that all those who say "dude, relax, it's just a game" smash the keyboard and scream at the whole house if they did not get their treasured 4K and the last survivor tbagging near the hatch.
>????????????Hell yeah, best argument I ever saw.
>dear god, you would be killed by sacrifice anyways, killer doesn't instantly become able to mori you as soon as all other survivors die, killer has to down you first.Dear Satan, there is a big difference between being sacrificed on a hook, having gone through all the stages, or being used as a free punching bag. In any case, I have already written about all this above and I see no point in repeating myself again.
0 - Calling survival horror PvP is, of course, too strong. I see a problem with you - you see the game as a platform for competition, and not as a game that should, in theory, bring pleasure from the process.
-
For now this is the most stupid here what I saw. Okay, I'll explain once more and never again, cus its getting really annoying.
>This is entitlement incarnate. Sincerely, there is nothing inherently toxic about mori'ing; you the individual believe that. It saves the killer what, 10 seconds of walking you to a hook?
If we're talking about the pink mori offering, I've already... described why it's OP a hundred times. It takes away the group's ability to save the survivor from death. If we're talking about using mori on the last survivor, I've already said that I PERSONALLY prefer to be sacrificed or bleed out at the edge of the map. Why? Because I very often (not always!) find myself in a situation of abuse and complete disrespect. I've described all of this above and I'm really tired of constantly referring people to what I wrote in the comments. Killers ABUSE mori to show their disregard for the surviving player: they stand over them and hit them, they do the "you know what" motion, they nod their head, they wait until the last second until you're about to bleed out to then do mori, they carry you to the hook then throw you on the floor and do mori, they carry you to the hatch then do mori. How many times do I have to repeat this for you to see it?
>Survivor mains are so full of double standards its insane.
Womp-womp I can't believe ppl actually can not main any side and just play both.
>If you play well as survivor and finish 3 gens with less than 4 hooks states, you don't think "gosh the killer is having a hard time maybe we should slow down" you think "haha I'm having fun, this killer is bad!"
Oh, you'll be surprised, but when I play as a survivor (mostly solo) and when the killer is really bad and we win very quickly, in most cases completely random people without any means of communication decide to give the killer hooks and sometimes even kills. And you know what the secret is? People play for fun and not for winning and they have personality, unlike killers who only care about numbers at the end of the game.
>If you escape you tbag at gates for no reason, if things don't go your way you give up on hook.
I also meet such survivors and this is also not normal? Toxicity in games is #########, can you imagine? And it does not matter which side you play. But since the topic of this thread is specific - mori, I did not raise the topic of the entire toxicity of the community.
>But when killers tunnel, camp, mori; thats not allowed, they arent allowed to win, to have fun, to beat you. Reflect on that.
Oof… well like… If tunneling, camping and mori are FUN for you then I am simply speechless. I really have no desire to even explain anything.0 -
A mori is only toxic if it's one of the boring ones like Trapper (non-Naughty Bear) or Wraith. Forcing me as a survivor to watch that shows a complete lack of respect for the value of my time. Play a killer with a fun mori, for god's sake.
Like Wesker. His mori is the dark side of hentai. Good stuff. I've stood in line and waited my turn for that mori more than once.
I'm trying to imagine DbD without moris at all, and really it would be the last vestiges of horror disappearing from the game. Trying to live the horror experience of hiding from a killer/monster and there not being a brutal death animation anywhere? That'd be unbearably vanilla. I don't want DbD to be August Underground, but as a piece of media that's rated mature it would be pretty insulting to adults if the game were safer than a Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark illustration.
3 -
No one forbids you to enjoy mori. But you cannot deny that the problem associated with it exists. And there are people who do not want to be killed in this way. It will not hurt you in any way if a personal offering or ability appears that allows you not to be moried. It is the right to choose.
0 -
But then why play a horror game? Play any other game. Horror is about awful things happening to a person against their will. People are abducted, attacked, tortured, degraded, forced to watch their loved ones suffer, murdered… etc. etc. That's horror. If the person chooses to go through those, then it's not horror, it's S&M. S&M is something consensual you do with another person or in a dating SIM.
Edit: I guess I should point out that by logging in to play DbD, and knowing that moris exist and are part of the game, you are consenting to these gameplay mechanics happening to you. You are an adult choosing to play the game, and these are horror-related things happening to you in a safe environment, in a fictional polygon-rendered video game. It's safer than going into a haunted house: nothing is physical, nothing can actually touch you.
5 -
If moris weren't a thing, all of this would still apply. The last survivor is dead anyway, if they are found and downed by the killer. The mori doesn't change that. Without the mori the killer would simply hook you and you'd still die.
It isn't a free kill either. The killer first has to kill the other 3 survivors for this to happen, which is already a win and then they need to find and down the last survivor before they can get the hatch.
Slugging for the 4k was already a thing. Killers who really cared about that would already go out of their way to do that. After seeing the animation a few times, it's a neat little extra but not worth the inconvenience to slug everyone, if you weren't going to do that anyway, so I highly doubt that this leads to more slugging.
8 -
I think mori is toxic and I've already explained why I think so above. If you're too lazy to reread my answers, that's not my problem, I won't repeat the same thing over and over, we're not in kindergarten.
At the very least, being sacrificed sounds a lot more fun than being humiliated by some dumb doll, right? (just as an example). If you like dying that way, go ahead, no one's stopping you. I'm speaking here on my own behalf (and fortunately I'm not the only one) who doesn't like the fact that mori mechanics are inevitable for a survivor. Oh, and you mentioned saving yourself with a flashlight? FYI, if you haven't noticed, the killer has a cool ability called "lightborne". If you don't want to be blinded, you use it. But what if you don't want to be killed with mori? That's right, your wishes don't matter, you're just a meat survivor.
no, i'm not lazy to reread your takes, that's why i instantly noticed that you are taking moris way too personally, nobody is humiliating you irl.
Calling survival horror PvP is, of course, too strong. I see a problem with you - you see the game as a platform for competition, and not as a game that should, in theory, bring pleasure from the process.
2. Yes. The culture of games "I play to win at any cost" is stupid, toxic and sweaty. You will not be able to change my mind. If you only get pleasure from winning and not from the process, then I think you should not play games.calling survival horror PvP is too strong? There are literally two sides playing against each other with set objectives win conditions + balance system along with MMR (although MMR system in it's current state is terrible). That is literally PvP game by definition.
"playing to win at all costs" is only toxic in the eyes of sore losers. It was never a winning side the one that said "i didn't have fun", but it's always the losing side that "didn't have fun". And if you think playing to win in PvP games is toxic, you are not built for PvP games.
Oh, we're getting personal? Okay my cute little boy, or whatever you want me to call you, my sweetie? I can be as cringey as you are, but okay, I'll try to be serious. So. MK and similar games are PvP, it's a competition. You're one on one with your opponent on equal terms. Can you say the same about DBD? If so... well? My condolences.
DbD is literally PvP, same as MK, the fact that it's asymmetrical has nothing to do with it being PvP or not.
"You take the game too seriously" says a person who can't enjoy the game unless he wins. Dude, if someone spits in your face, I would advise you to just kill your feelings.
jokes on you i'm playing my game with 140BPM music turned up to the max and playing only for clips atm, and i don't equalize some mori in the game with somebody spitting in my face irl because it's a game.
The argument of such a horn does not stand up to any criticism at all and has no relation to reality, because it has long been obvious to everyone that people - SURPRISE - are living beings who experience emotions and games also cause emotions, oh my god, who would have thought! In particular, the behavior of other players towards you can also cause emotions, both positive and negative, which is normal. I am more than sure that all those who say "dude, relax, it's just a game" smash the keyboard and scream at the whole house if they did not get their treasured 4K and the last survivor tbagging near the hatch.
some people get tilted when they lose and? As long as they don't throw various disgusting words in postgame chat guess what, i don't care at all.
Dear Satan, there is a big difference between being sacrificed on a hook, having gone through all the stages, or being used as a free punching bag. In any case, I have already written about all this above and I see no point in repeating myself again.
again, taking the game way too seriously and equalizing it with real life.
9 -
Wholly disagree on moris being toxic by nature, and I agree with the other posters that you're taking the game far too seriously. It's not personal at all and they're literally just using the game mechanic to naturally end the game. Also the examples you give of moris skipping second chance perks is a moot point because if the killer picks you up as the last survivor, you're dead 99% of the time, unless you had something like power struggle flip flop or something, but even then the killer could have just slugged you for 4 minutes. Moris are a very nice way to close the game out. If you're referring to ebony mori killing people that have been 2 hooked, sure, that can be used to prevent saves. What's the problem? They've already been hooked twice and if you bring a mori offering the survivors can bring map offering uncountered, seems balanced to me.
But I will say this. It would be very convenient to have the ability to skip moris as survivor, either automatically through a setting like you mentioned, or manually with a little button that shows up in the corner when the mori starts or something. Because if you're in mori animation as survivor, the game is already over for you. Would be nice to be able to skip the hook sacrifice animation too.
Also I think there should be an incentive for killers to go for a 3k instead of 4k. If I as killer could just quit the match with no penalty, interact with some object to end the game and give the last survivor the escape, or anything like that to save time and not have to deal with the last stupid 50/50 for hatch and then gates, I would love that. Would save so much time and the game is already over anyway.
I also see that you're upset with killers BMing a ton, and then doing a mori. How is that any worse than them slugging the last survivor, humping, swining, nodding, shaking, picking at last second, hooking, then slapping on hook? It's the exact same. We shouldn't take away this update just because some people find moris more toxic in their personal preference.
3 -
You probably misunderstood me. I am against the way mori is used. And that mori is a complete deprivation of survivors of the ability to save a dying teammate. As I said, it's all about abuse because someone has gained control over the player. This is what makes the fact of mori too toxic. And I don't see anything wrong with giving survivors a choice whether they want it or not. Mori should have a counter-version, like "lightborne" against blinding.
0 -
I also want to add that everything I described in all the comments above has little to do with what you call a "horror game" (I'm talking about Mori abuse). It's just too often used in toxic ways that only relate to bad and unsportsmanlike behavior, but not to the fact that it's a horror game.
0 -
I think I'll have to give an example from my personal experience. One of them was a match against Deathslinger. The guy was sweating a lot and playing with red addons, tunneling people. I was playing with my duo. Two other guys suicide on hooks (and I don't blame them), there were 3 generators left to fix for the two of us (we were both on stage 2 of the hook). At some point, the killer became nice, or so it seemed to us then. He dragged us all over the map using his ability, let us fix the generators, constantly keeping us in sight. We spent about 15 minutes on all this. And in the end, as soon as we fixed the last generator (we were both damaged as well), he dropped us both. And he moribund us right next to the generator. If you specifically would cry from joy from such behavior, then I sympathize with you, because personally I consider this toxic behavior. And yes, if he had hooked us, the behavior of "I'm cute now and will give you hope but then I'll kill you" is still bad, but you must admit, less sad than "officially" giving your soul to an entity on a hook. Your argument "it's just a game" does not work, you cannot deny that toxic behavior exists and we, as people who have emotions, feel this behavior, and it does not matter if it happened in real life or in a game. It is not a pleasant feeling.
The second case was similar, but at least it did not take so long. We played against Ghostface, he hooked us all 2 times and let us go. I do not know why he did not like me, but he did a mori on me 1 centimeter from the exit border. What would have changed if he had carried me on the hook? Yes, a lot. Firstly, all team members were alive and were ready to take the hit. Then the classic rescue with a flashlight. Do you now understand what I mean or still not?
0 -
the killer became nice, or so it seemed to us then. He dragged us all over the map using his ability, let us fix the generators
as soon as we fixed the last generator (we were both damaged as well), he dropped us both. And he moribund us right next to the generator
I still consider that nice because the killer could have killed me immediately but instead he let me get some points before killing me. If I don't need or want the points, I'll refuse to do gens and demand he kill me.
If the only thing you care about is escape in this game, matches are going to feel a lot worse. I usually assume I'm going to die and try to enjoy what happens in the meantime, it's healthier.
but you must admit, less sad than "officially" giving your soul to an entity on a hook
No? The entity isn't real and the dying on the hook animation is boring. The mori is the more fun way to die.
We can turn this around and say putting the survivors on a hook when you have a mori is like saying "I don't care enough about you to give you the cool animation." You can reframe something with no meaning and give it any meaning you want. Just try to remember it actually has no meaning except the meaning you give it.
we, as people who have emotions, feel this behavior, and it does not matter if it happened in real life or in a game. It is not a pleasant feeling.
You can't change other people. You'll be happier if you can reframe your own perspective. I don't get mad when the survivor teabags me: I assume they're trying to get my attention and keep me in chase. My feelings aren't hurt when the killer hits me on the hook: I assume they're new or they're roleplaying. If the killer decides to bleed me out, I put my controller down and go do something else.
I don't take the actions of my opponents personally. I don't take dying personally.
he did a mori on me 1 centimeter from the exit border
You knew he had the mori. Even if the killer seems friendly, if you don't want to die, you keep the mori in mind. If you did keep it in mind but your teammates failed you, then that's on your teammates. The killer did what killers do and killed.
We've all had matches like the two you described. Mori'd in the exit gate, the only person to die, killer pretended to be friendly (you should never take this at face value, always stay on your toes), all that stuff. I've been mori'd on top of an open hatch. It happens. I cursed at the game for recovering instead of letting me escape through the hatch (I hate the button bindings in DbD), I laughed a bit, and that was about all the thought I gave it.
I do not know why he did not like me
This here is the problem. You take it personally.
I've gone against killers who turned out to be streamers. I went and watched the VOD of the match afterwards. None of them were malicious about killing me. It was never personal. Some did "eenie meenie miney mo" if they were trying to decide who to kill. Some were meme-ing. One that specifically comes to mind was a killer with Rancor who was just going for surprise Rancor moris. They were talking to chat, friendly, having a good time, and even expressed how they liked the survivors they were going against, including the obsession. Yeah, the obsession who they were trying to kill, they liked the survivor, but they still had every intention of playing the meme game they queued up for and killing them.
Every once in a while someone may not like you and may target you specifically for some reason, but it's not the norm, and unless they tell you so in chat you'll never know. One of the most common reasons a killer will target one survivor over another is the survivor character someone has chosen to play as. That's not personal; it's annoying if you like a character many killers seem to have a vendetta against, but it's not personal.
mori is a complete deprivation of survivors of the ability to save a dying teammate
Survivors know the mori is in play. They can body block and try to distract the killer to help keep their teammate from going down into the dying state. There are fewer options available to the survivors, but it's not a complete removal of their ability to help each other. Personally, I think the mori is the better option than the killer slugging all four survivors and then killing them; playing in that manner also makes it harder for the survivors to help each other, and it can be extremely boring to be slugged. You may disagree and prefer being slugged, but that all comes down to personal preference, and our preferences don't determine how our opponent plays. The developers also can't design the game around these kinds of things when everyone is different and has different personal preferences.
I don't see anything wrong with giving survivors a choice whether they want it or not. Mori should have a counter-version, like "lightborne" against blinding.
The game developers went through the trouble of giving each killer (and some cosmetics) their own unique mori. BHVR is selling moris attached to cosmetics. They're not going to let survivors disable moris.
3 -
I agree that it's ideal if someone can separate their feelings from games they play, but I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others. If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
Having said that, I don't think moris are toxic in the sense that the players using them always intend to make the match worse for the survivors. But I do feel that moris take away any sense of fighting back that survivors have. I personally hate the sense of helplessness they instill because the survivors just sit there and get killed.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human. That struggle is there while survivors are being carried or on hook. In that sense, I see where op is coming from. I know some people will say you fight the mori by running in chase or hiding, but I think all that agency is removed once the mori starts, and that feels wrong to me. I'd support a struggle bar to interrupt moris similar to struggling while being carried, maybe even a competitive one where the killer and survivor get to compete with skill checks.
Post edited by smurf on0 -
I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others.
It's a skill that can be learned. It comes through self-awareness and working on oneself. Empathy isn't necessarily innate but is something learned (studies have shown people who read fiction are more empathetic, it has to do with experiencing life through different lenses).
Part of emotional intelligence is understanding that your feelings are not the only ones in play, and you don't know the motivations or feelings of the other person. In a video game, it's best to assume the other person is simply playing the game. Yes, there are some people who don't slug because their sense of empathy says it's mean to slug someone, they feel bad for doing it. But other people don't see it that way, they see it as a natural part of the game, and keeping that context in mind helps people not take things personally.
If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
That's fair, no one likes feeling their time was wasted. That's frustration with the game mechanics and game design and still not something that should be taken personally. Frustration with DbD is normal, even expected, and anyone who's feeling it should take a break from the game. I take many breaks from DbD. It can be draining dealing with all the problems in the game, and that includes bugs and performance issues, everything just all adds up into a frustrating experience, and everyone should take breaks.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human.
Horror is about fear. Some people will feel a sense of fear and tension while being chased or hiding. That is part of some horror. But there's also horror that focuses on helplessness and the complete loss of hope. Horror comes in many forms, and what type of horror you prefer and what elements of horror you prefer are personal preference. Not that I think moris necessarily fall into the latter category of horror due to complete helplessness. The struggle to stay alive is what happens while being chased and hiding and helping teammates. The mori is the brutal kill when the killer has won. That's a basic part of horror. The prey fights, they lose, they die horribly. Once that first fatal blow lands it's over and the audience is just watching the spectacle of it. That's the same thing as a mori. The struggle has ended, this is the end. It's a bit drawn out to give the audience a show, but it is the end. (I will stress I'm talking about fiction and horror tropes, here.)
The survivor is able to wiggle on the killer's should and struggle on the hook because it's not the end. The mori is less than 15 seconds long, it's an extended entity-taking-you-into-the-sky animation but (usually, cough Wraith cough) more interesting. When a mori is in play, the survivor has a warning in terms of the hidden offering, so it's up to the survivors to play around it, putting their effort into denying the first and second hooks with the understanding that there won't be a third chance. The rules of the game change, like playing around a killer's power (especially for example Pyramid Head and Sadako, but in general all killers have differences and require different styles of play from survivors).
4 -
What is some people's obsession with Sweet Baby Inc??? 99% of the time someone brings it up they're basically guaranteed to have weird takes.
I think OP's point is asinine but it's still a weird thing to bring up either way.
4 -
Getting to the endgame without any hook states doesn't mean you played well. It means you didn't take your share of aggro or leverage your hook states as a resource for your team.
It's nuts how there's actually a sizeable contingent of players that think holding m1 and crouching away as soon as they hear a whisper of a terror radius is the entirety of the game.
3 -
Yeah, I mean Pyramid Head's quick chopping with his sword fits that description of being the end of the struggle. But the struggle to stay alive wouldn't reasonably end just because the killer knocks you down, hence the wiggling on the killer's shoulder and struggling on hook until the last moment. Some moris show scenarios where the survivor would be expected to keep fighting.
Also, Wraith pats are almost funny! Boop boop boop!
Don't get me wrong, I don't think moris are generally used by people to intentionally make someone's experience worse, so I wouldn't say they're toxic.
But I do think it's unfair to people playing as survivors to give the killer a basekit ability that denies them the ability to participate in something they have to watch happen in a game they're playing in. I'd probably find moris more palatable if there were a struggle involved that I could participate in until the end. Honestly, I don't find them interesting at all because there's no way for me to be involved. Just take me to the endgame screen if I can't be part of it.
Having said that, your opinions are totally valid too :D
1 -
This is true some of the time, but I've definitely had matches where the killer breaks chase repeatedly to look for other targets, even ignoring me when I try to take chase and after tanking hits.
Having said that, you're right that if someone doesn't try to take chase at all, they're probably in the wrong mmr.
3 -
Boop boop boop!
lol that's going to play in my head next time Wraith moris me.
I don't find them interesting at all because there's no way for me to be involved. Just take me to the endgame screen if I can't be part of it.
I can see where you're coming from with this.
I think BHVR's decision of what to do with moris comes down to something that has nothing to do with our conversation whatsoever: sales. Just like people can't disable cosmetics (I've seen it requested, and the one thing I'd argue for there is that Yui's tails cosmetic can sometimes tank the game's performance), there are cosmetics with moris attached (and the possibility for future individual moris in the store) and so BHVR wants to increase rather than decrease the visibility of killer moris.
I have no issue with a survivor wanting to skip past the animation for dying on the hook or dying to the mori. If you play DbD a lot, it becomes repetitive. To me, it's like when you want to button-mash past a cinematic in a video game on a replay. You've seen it, and if it's not interesting to you there's no reason to sit through it again. I find choose-your-own-path cinematic games rather difficult to replay for that reason: most of it is recycled content that can't be skipped.
1 -
Read through a bit and I'll agree that messing around for 15 minutes, then instantly downing and killing you with no warning is toxic, most of the point when you farm with surviors is to let them escape and stuff.
But I still don't see why you experience such a huge psychological difference between a mori and getting hooked. Do you feel a huge difference if they hook you, then hit on hook over and over? Or hook you, then stare without moving? Or hook you, then walk away as you get sacrificed? Hook you and nod? I think getting mori'd is one of the least annoying ways to go, because it's over so quickly and it's a preset animation anyway so there's not really "room" for anything that could be interprated as BM. Your character has to die one way or the other right?
They should definitely add some tools that survivors can use to go out on their own terms if they're being slugged, etc, but I just don't think most people agree with you on this one. I think a good compromise is a "skip mori" option, either as button during the mori or from the settings so when a mori starts, the screen just fades to black and you instantly go to the post game screen, kind of like dying in a Pyramid Head cage.
2 -
I feel like you're missing the problem. The problem is probably not slugging for the 4k, but rather how unfair the hatch feels.
You can never fully fix it, probably. But I'd figure a good way to reduce it would be to make the hatch more balanced.
Currently, you can lose a game, lose a 50/50 on hatch and STILL escape through an exit gate. And trust me, 50% of the time at least, the gates are far enough for the survivor to easily escape.
Normally I'd suggest that the entity instantly kills the last survivor after closing the hatch, like when the timer runs out. But people want to see moris, so that won't stop slugging.
Maybe closing the hatch gives killer instinct for 10 seconds, along with exposing the last survivor? That way, a very good survivor that can hide even past 10 seconds of killer instinct can still get a gate, the killer no longer has that situation where hitting the survivor just gives them enough time to finish the gate when its around 90%, and killers have an incentive to kill the 3rd survivor to close hatch, as now they are much more likely to get the 4k.
2 -
You don't have to be hooked twice just be last survivor and downed to get the Finisher Mori.
2 -
Hatch race is very killer sided. Once there's one survivor left, I know as killer I have a better chance to get it than they do. Killer has higher movement speed than survivors and doesn't have to hide or run if the survivor shows up. I haven't counted, but I'd say I end up closing 2/3 of hatches that open when I'm killer, or occasionally standing by it and then leaving when I see the last survivor to let them know I'm giving them hatch.
To me as killer, hatch feels extremely fair. It gives the last survivor a chance, which is pretty reasonable. I mean, with four or five gens left if three survivors are out of the game, there's no chance for the last survivor to finish the gens. Even opening a gate can be a challenge for one survivor. And sometimes the last survivor is last because the killer broke chase and left them for last because they were decent at looping.
If the survivor is being tricky, they can wait at a gate for the killer to close the hatch, but that's very risky since the killer could end up running straight to the correct gate.
I find hatch to be very fair. If it didn't exist, the game might as well just end if there's more than one gen left and one last survivor. It's pretty fun to have a little game with the last survivor when I've already "won." And there are five players in the game. I don't feel the need to make four people get a bad outcome so I can get a bigger win.
1 -
escaping is toxic
2 -
Lol, nerf exit gates!
0 -
Nowadays it's just a meme bro. When there's someone who uses strong words and strong opinions about something simple like a mori, well… That's the meme.
0 -
Well it makes you look weird. The types of people who reference Sweet Baby Inc. like that are usually the same types that get in a tizzy whenever there's minorities in video games, from my experience.
2 -
Well, I think it's far more weirder assuming things on people judging them by a simple joke. But you know, points of view and stuff. Have fun bro.
0 -
Dang, your comments always made me read with anticipation, but now you got my full on attention :D Yeah, non-Naughty Bear Trapper and Wraith are so uninspired and boring, they should be changed out ASAP! What a disgrace AND disrespect!
My favorite mori is Pyramid Head: not only is he my main, but his mori is REALLY cool and many seem surprised when they see it, being so used to the quick and dirty 1s punishment mori.
Your problem seems to be an overtly identification with your ingame avatar, thus you feel humiliated and threated as just a hunk of meat, not as a person. There lies your problem: most players see the act of mori-ing the survivor just as a fun little interaction, not something that would (or ever should) bleed into the real world.
If you try to detach yourself from the idea the killer is doing his to you (and thus disempowering and humiliating you), then you might even enjoy the spectacle for what it is: a homage to the horror and slasher movies of the 70s and 80s, where brutal killing scenes where the Raison d'etre was the fun shock value, and not that the viewer identified with the person on screen and relieving their nightmare.
BTW, I am a fair killer: I try to kill all four and am often successful. Cheers :)
1
