Why do you think WoO needs a drastic change?
There is a lot of talks about WoO needing a nerf for a very long time. Why do you think this perk needs a nerf?
Comments
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It really doesn't. It's the same as running Zanshin Tactics pre buff. A new survivor will get some use from it to learn a map and a 5k+ hour one wont really use it.
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I dont think it needs a Nerf. It is just used a lot and then Killer players think they lose games because of WoO.
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That's the problem though. New survivors that rely on it to much don't learn the map. I've seen this personally as survivor and killer when using and facing blindness perks. That one good survivor that seemed to know where everything was? The moment you hit them with blindness they turn into a headless chicken. It introduces autopilot into people's minds because they are so used to seeing where to go. I don't think it needs a massive nerf or maybe one at all. But I do encourage people to play a few games without it to they can actually memorize possible spawns. The best other use of the perk is knowing what resources are used. Which is how killers can get downs quicker. They force survivors into what they think is a dead zone. Little do they know the survivor knows where exactly to go to get away anyway.
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the thing is...way too many 5k+ hour players use it exclusively as a critch, regardless of playing soloQ or SWF, because they don't learn maps, they just embrace the "i see yellow, i run to yellow" mentality
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In my opinion, the perk should get a nerf so other perks can get a buff by giving them this aura read ability: Deadline could let you see pallets, Windows, and vault location when injured, Better than new gives healed survivors the aura read of pallets, Windows, and vault locations ect. (There are also Alert and Any Means Necessary that have a similar effect like WoO by telling them which pallets are gone). This would help the game more because it would increase the perk variety while still helping the survivors but in a more healthy way. I've saw that many times in Chaos Shuffle where many survivors just ran past a pallet or a good tile due to the lack of WoO. The issue is that the idea of the Perk is to help new players but many players rely on this perk by refusing to learn the maps or spawn logic or use different perks which require a bit of thinking (Any Means Necessary and Alert).
If we really want to help new players learning the maps, then the developers can introduce a basekit feature that shows you the aura of every pallet, Windows, and vault location for the first three times on each map (kinda like they do this with killers that see survivors the first three times. So if you spawn the fourth time on RPD West, you will no longer have this basekit feature on this map - this goes for both sides).
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Wo0 needs a nerf not because it's inherently strong but because it's a training wheels perk that lets survivors forego having to learn tiles and become efficient through experience.
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Always funny to read duplicated thread about the same complain over & over. Why does anybody a search on this forum ?
As a killer can deal with a pallet predropper, he (you) can deal with a WoO user without to beg for a nerf…
Fact is: WoO avoid the survivor 'to loop' in a dead zone and as Alert & Empathy do, this perk gives you more info about the actual chase, where are the dropped pallet & where are located the survivor/killer in chase…
And sometimes you - as survivor - can confuse a breakable wall with a pallet… So WoO don't have only good aspects…2 -
I am of two minds here: the autopilot and headless chicken survivors are really no fun: if I humor them, I could predict the next 3min of the game without fail in exact order of events, because thats how they play. There is no need for a human killer at that point, just an automaton who follows the survivor around, kicks pallet, rinse, repeat. Thats AWEFUL.
But, yes, new players have it extremely tough and there are so many maps and killers and perks to learn, that its easy to overwhelm a new player. Learning all the maps can be a tough choice and new Ormont confuses me to no end up until now. Many call this perk an absolute necessity and I can see why.
But if you play against a really good survivor with this perk, they might just be untouchable. They can plan their route so perfectly and play around loops so without fail, that it feels borderline unfair. And I am not sure if that is really a skill issue - it IS a certain skill issue, to dwell on such a chase and not break it, but I always hear that the game is supposed to let the killer eventually get the survivor, but god loopers ability to loop for 5 gens is often fueled by WoO.
I guess its better to not change it, because of the help it provides for the most vulnerable group in the game, but if BHVR could somehow manage the impossible and not nerf newbies while cutting down on this perks ability to make top tier players untouchable AND maybe turn off the auto pilot, man, I would be all game for that.
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No nerf needed, let the killer use his skill instead of relying on survivors mistakes.
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Me? I'm not out here confusing breakable walls with pallets, that's just a you problem I think.
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Well, I’m fairly sure you’ll not see anyone claim that the perk is OP in good faith. But I do think the perk gives a lot of information for free. It leads to that good ol’ feeling of “Did I get outplayed, or outperked?” If they are genuinely better than me, then so be it. But if they just used an autopilot perk to just show them where to go at all times, what am I really playing against?
It’s the closest one can get to a “crutch perk”, imo. Does that warrant a nerf? Not in any objective sense. But at some point a perk playing a significant part of the game for you doesn’t sit entirely right with me either.
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if survivors want to complain that killers have too much aura reading than woo also needs a nerf for the same reason.
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Yes ofc, I'm just the problem but I never beg a change for this since 2019 when I've started to use it (I don't use it anymore for some reasons).
During the Event with the trash pallets, you can easily confuse a solid one with a trash one 'cause their auras have the same yellow colour (WoO was useless during this event). On Ormond Resort, you can confuse a pallet & a breakable wall (when you are in the main & you look up) and in the Gideon Meat Plant you can make a wrong pathing when you are relying too much over the yellow indication (because you can often go in a dead end expecting to reach the next pallet behind a close way or something).
But yes, I MUST BE the problem nvm…1 -
I now consider WoO a killer boot camp perk, where whenever a survivor runs it, it's actively helping the killer get better at learning the game, as Survivors are somewhat competent all the time. It makes a bad survivor actually somewhat in the same realms as a veteran survivor with non of the work or effort.
It is however also turning the survivors brain to mush. Removes any need to actually think, and allows them to just be a bot that sits on a gen until licked by the terror radius, run the yellow brick road with Lithe and likely be fine... at least until they start going against strong killers that counter that and have literally learned none of the fundamental skills you need to try and play basic mind games or macro... but... thems the breaks I guess.
Personally I'd like to run WoO from time to time or recommend it new players, but it comes with the caveat "if you don't care about actually learning to play DBD, take WoO, it'll help you win more often".
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No, just make it shorter range. No need for a long cooldown or some awful downside. Make it 24m range, maybe 20 so you can't preplan your entire chase at your first loop.
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Devs should not have removed the cooldown of this perk. No one used it when the 20sec cooldown was on this perk… Nobody except me perhaps…
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WoO doesn't need a nerf directly but the way to Counter it needs a buff. That being the Blindness Status Effect. Killers of have 5 perks and 20 Add-ons to cause it. Ultimate Weapon used to be good but it got nerfed pretty hard. Septic Touch is just Trash. Third Seal is a Hex and bad against SWF. There's Knockout but that doesn't help in Chase and Finally Mindbreaker which only last for 5 seconds after when you stop repairing. Now they could add the Blindness Effect to more perks like Deathbound, Iron Maiden, Dragons Grip, Hubris, or Make your Choice to make those perks even more Scary since most cause the Exposed Status effect.
Alternatively they Could do what they do with Iron Will and Make the Perk deactivate when Exhausted.
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The devil in me gives this reason: "run to yellow"
The reasonable part of my consciousness says: "it's fine and doesn't need a nerf."
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I think no player loses a game because of one thing alone. It's almost always a combination of aspects that lead to a loss.
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They could reduce the aura range by a bit, but it doesn’t deserve a big nerf.
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Personally I feel it’s way too cheap. Just run to the Yellow, and anyone can be a decent looper.
I say this because I’m a very terrible Survivor, but the moment I use this perk, I become way better than I should be, and very few Killers can actually catch me.Yes it’s a big crutch for bad survivors.
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That's because blindness is too strong against solo que and literally makes it almost impossible for solo que to win. In fact hex third seal should be taken out of the game. Why are killer mains obsessed with making survivor as weak as the basic enemy in a pve game.
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Cooldown of 20 seconds after pallet has been dropped would be ok. I think this perk is just unhealthy. Survivors crutch on it too hard and they don't even learn basic map layout and common pallet spawns.
Also as a soloQ enjoyer im kinda tired of seeing windows users drop 10 pallets in one chase and leaving nothing for the rest of us. As a killer i use these survivors to farm the pallets out of the way so the rest of the game is easy breezy.
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it should have a 20 sec cooldown atleast
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This is a pretty good assessment. I basically never run this perk, but when I do for some reason, I am always amazed and overwhelmed by all the yellow dots and how comfortable it feels to know that a pallet is just over there :D
But luckily I nearly never have room in my builds for it and play 99% without it.
The brainrot is real, though. Every time you have widespread blindness activated (the objective worst statuseffect) you see players losing all sense of direction and entering headless chicken mode. This is the main reason why Ultimate Weapon was so hated, I would bet money on it! :D
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what other aura reading perks do survivors use? Bond?
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No the perk doesn’t need a nerf. So tired of seeing complaints about perks like windows that aren’t even a problem. I remember when killers complained about old dead hard coh and made for this. Those were actually problematic. So whenever i see people demand for nerfs to perks like windows, i cant help take them seriously since these people complain about every thing survivors use
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I don’t think Windows is OP. Yes it helps beginners but it almost feels like a wasted slot for more experienced Survivors.
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If a windows user drops 10 pallets then they suck either way no matter what perks they are using
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
for experienced survivor players it is a wasted perk slot yeah, but for inexperienced survivors sitting at high hours and still relying on this perk, idk what to say.
A perk that is a very good training wheel when used by beginner players, but holds you so much back from generally getting better at the game when you have so many hours invested and you still use it because you have 0 map awareness
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Except killers only got more aura reading and had its only counter gutted, so…
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yeah he presented a really poor counter
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I think nerfing windows would be fine on one condition. Get rid of all the map variants and all of the RNG pallets. This kind of random chance has no place in a game that has been going in a more competitive direction. Make every map static with only one version. Like why are there five different versions of badham? Why do pallets spawn sometimes and not other times? Does this make the game better or does it just confuse people? It makes it incredibly difficult for survivors who don't have thousands of hours to learn the maps. If you got rid of the RNG factor then this would be much easier to do for the average player.
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People depend too much on it, and it makes it too easy to run endless loops, i think a nerf would be healthy for the game.
for example a cool down after 2 quick vaults or pallet drops.
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I only ever see people with 2k+ hours running it, sometimes 4k-5k hours.
Pretty sure it's more used now to chain loops rather than learn pallet spawns. Not saying it needs a drastic change though.1 -
This is correct. Yet we see mainly complaints about one thing and one thing only. And if it is not a Perk for once, it is SWF, the ultimate scapegoat.
The people who complain about WoO currently will still lose games if it is nerfed and then think the next Perk is at fault.
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Hehehe… I hear you, I have to avoid WoO at all costs, cause it's like a satnav for me… go the same route 50 times, still don't know the way there xD
Chaos Shuffle is so much easier in chase… but way harder to map control as killer, and I'm sure the lack of exhaustion perks and WoO is the reason. In regular games I've legit seen teams fold completely due to a well hidden Hex: Third Seal totem… started off running the killer for 90s plus… then couldn't last more than 10 seconds forever more after that xD
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It should be nerfed. Perks that eliminate the skill gap between good and bad players are unhealthy, and it has a usage rate rivaling old dead hard. It also holds back maps getting any buffs as survivors can make perfect use of the few pallets that are left on reworked maps.
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were u the Lara in the unknown game yesterday on the asylum map?
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Maybe? If it was me, I would have been running Object, For the People, Kindred, & Balanced.
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Its kinda interesting to see people always try to embrace the "it only helps new players to know where pallets are" route to not get WoO nerfed, while in reality it also helps 5k hours players by knowing where their non-swf teammates did drop the pallets. Unless with hours played you get some kind of omnipresence and know exactly what are the killer and the chased survivor doing on every situation (dont think thats the case, because otherwise old Eruption would still have the incapacitated effect as players would knew exactly the moment the killer is going to hit the survivor and stop repairing the gen to not get incapacitated) then it also helps people with thousands of hours, and a lot.
Fun fact: recently Otz made a new "killer and survivor perks tier list". When i started the video i though that probably WoO would be for him some kind of D or E tier perk, but to my surprise he did put on the A category, just the next perk after the S perks, as a very very very strong perk.
The reasons? Exactly for what i said. Yes it helps newer players to know the pallet spawns, but it also helps everyone to know the pallets that have been thrown and destroyed already. You get chased, go into a loop tile that you know it spawns a pallet, but guess what? it was used already and the killer hits you. If you were wounded already then you go down and hooked, a mistake that knowing the pallet situation beforehand you could have prevented and extended the chase.
WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
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Was there a Claire that went down in basement to use Wicked and ended up dying early?
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People also forget to mention this but if you really pay attention while using WoO as the perk has utility, you can tell where a chase is taking place if you pay attention to the HUD and see a pallet get dropped you know where at least a singular survivor and the killer are eliminating the need to run perks like empathy or bond (this fact alone should be enough to get WoO nerfed due to it outclassing those perks), people really underrate WoO like when people really underrated Dead Hard and something tells me with how loud everyone is about it not needing a nerf. it needs a nerf.
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Honestly i didnt even think about that… yeah, it also helps to know where the chase is being done actually. Another point to WoO i suppose.
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Same with a killer breaking a wall at the beginning of the game, WoO works as a pseudo Lethal Pursuer for survivors on maps like Dead dog
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WoO is borderline overpowered and needs nerfs.
If that is your standard for 'borderline overpowered', I think what you're aiming for is a game without any survivor perks at all.
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Strawman fallacy. In any moment i said that i dont want any survivor perk at all, but you already know that.
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I'd like to take this moment to complain. Not at you, but at the game design or at least the way the balance of the game is perceived.
Solo queue is the worst. RNG and nonsensical possibly broken SBMM sticks us with who knows who for teammates. I die because my team performed poorly, that's on all of us for playing poorly as a team. So there's a perk like WoO that helps you play around the shortcomings of the RNG teammates you're stuck with. Did they use up all the pallets in an area? Did they create a dead zone? Well, at least I know so I don't run there and go down in two seconds.
Except that having a way to avoid losing a chase two seconds into it when your teammates are awful or selfish is game-breaking because the game is basically designed around your teammates getting you killed. "Your teammates need to play better." I can't control what my random solo queue teammates do, I can't even influence them. I can point or motion "come on," and my teammates will get obstinate and do something suicidal because they're mad I won't follow their lead.
Solo queue is doomed to always be the most miserable experience. We're supposed to play like a team to win because it's 1v4, but no one plays like a team because it's only your own escape that matters, everyone else can die and it's not your problem. And when you die you get to move on to a new match, the teammates you leave behind still aren't your problem. They never are or were.
In other games people win as a team or lose as a team. Not here. So someone can play in a way that screws over the entire rest of their team and profit from it. Like throwing down half the pallets on the map in the first 60 seconds of the trial. Even if there are pallets left, good luck to the other three players who need them.
What's the point of having resources on the map if you can't find them and use them? I run to a tile that's spawned a pallet every other time I've played on this map and this time it's not there because RNG, that just feels like the game gave me the middle finger. I managed to get that far without going down due to controller input issues or getting stuck on the environment or life-ending frame drops, I beat the odds and reached that tile but it doesn't even matter because there's no resource there, I'm going down. Plus, the skill of chase includes guessing what your solo queue teammates did while being chased rather than just effective use of resources when you yourself are in a chase.
I long ago stopped being surprised when I play killer and I walk up to a survivor and they don't even bother to run. Solo queue has lost the will to fight when they have to fight against killers and map RNG and teammates.
Congrats and sorry to anyone who bothered to read me venting here. That's all it is, venting. I don't even run WoO myself anymore, because I have other perks I like running and the yellow auras are rather annoying. Plus, hey, my team wasted the pallet, so if I die because I can't find resources my absence will be my team's problem as well, right? (It's certainly not my problem, I'm gone and moved on.) Though, I am considering running WoO again what with all the changes to the maps, because I can't figure out what is going on with some of these tiles.
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then equip fearmonger, third seal, or one of the dozens of add ons that inflicts blindness if you don't want to waste a slot perk if it is that big of an issue…
oh wait it wouldn't matter because at the end of the day you can give a 100 hour and a 5k hour survivor WoO and the WoO will be more in your favor than the new survivors. a new survivor doesn't know timings for chaining loops, if they are chaining loop after loop either you are playing poorly or the rng is abysmal and you need to drop chase… they'll end up dropping every pallet if you chase them long enough and screw over their team.
for the 5k hour survivor using WoO as a crutch, is it really the perk or the game sense that is carrying them? lol
anyone can put on windows and run from one window to the next, but the pathing and game sense needed to actually succeed at that is far than what most survivors with windows are capable of doing. WoO isn't giving survivor's wall hacks of the killer or a haste bonus for vaulting a window or pallet that is highlighted. everyone talks about it from the survivor side but what about the killer side?
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The issue is that if you take a perk that does almost nothing that can't be achieved without it, and you call that 'overpowered', that is arguing that a perk that does something more substantial would be far more overpowered.
This is an issue that happens a lot on these forums where the balancing standard keeps shifting. With every nerf to survivors, the game doesn't get more balanced, forum killers just adjust their standards and find the next most valuable perk and label that 'overpowered'. The benchmark just keeps getting pushed further down.
WoO is not overpowered, and is not even close to it. It's just that the bar for survivor perks has dropped through the floor, especially with additions like Weaving Spiders.
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