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Another patch, still no fix…
So another update dropped today with no mention of the bug that’s been affecting The Onryō’s invisibility duration for the past 10 months. That brings the total number of patches that the Onryō has been bugged for to 29.
Completely absurd that in 29 patches spread across 10 months, the issue hasn’t even been acknowledged, let alone fixed.
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As someone who hasn't heard of this, could you explain the bug or link to another post that does?
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Have you got a link to the main bug report post so I can upvote it please?
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Ah, this is a bug that I would consider a feature. Seems a strange thing to want to buff in the first place, as it is hard to play against while being fully passive to use.
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It’s neither hard to play against nor passive to use, but that’s neither here nor there. The point remains that they said they were increasing the value from 1s to 1.2 s, back in 7.5.0 but instead they broke it and left it at 0.8 s.
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It is passive in that it automatically applies in the demanifested state. You don't press a"Sadako is now invisible" button. You just walk around and passively benefit from this while demanifested and you continue to benefit for a bit after manifesting. It's very similar to Spirit's passive phasing, but stronger over a shorter duration.
A survivor can't react to something they cannot see or hear. It would be better if it only applied when she was demanifested, but it lasts for four seconds after manifesting, which can and will give her free hits after manifesting with minimal effort; she can do a simple mindgame at a fortunate time and appear like 6 meters away from where you expect her to be.
I understand the devs intended to buff this and nerfed it instead. That's not good, but the correct decision would have been not to buff this in the first place, and instead to buff parts of her kit that require skill to get value. So, all's well that ends well, I suppose.
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but it lasts for four seconds after manifesting
Post-Manifestation intermittent visibility operates with different values. The invisibility period is 0.75 s here and this value is not what was buffed in 7.5.0, nor are we asking it to be.
Post edited by OnryosTapeRentals on2 -
Huh, I didn't know that the numbers were different. All I can say is that it is irritating to chase against. If it were just Freddy style, like for a bit of passive stealth, I would have no issue with it, but this is used in loops for passive value, and I think that is not something that should be buffed.
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You still need to manifest to attack, so it requires specific timing and attention on the killer's side to use it effectively to get a hit - unlike Spirit who can just M1 while passively phasing.
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Right? I’m kind of confused about the whole “it’s passive” thing. I’ve never heard anyone say that before, even back when the invisibility duration was 1 second.
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It’s not hard to play against. Unlike spirit you can’t just pop up and attack instantly. To get value have to time it precisely and mainfest (which takes long)before they reach a pallet or window. You also can’t just go to them and become instantly manifested while invisible, because your invisibility stops as son as you press the button to mainfest, which gives the survivors enough time.
l don’t understand, why you would call this ability too strong, when we have so many stronger powers than this could ever be. Funny enough in her first version you could get 1.5s of it and NOBODY complained. It didn’t even get nerfed for balancing reasons, only because of the pick rate. Now it is 0,7-0,8s, which is terrible.
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Respect and funny, that you counted all patches. I hope they will finally fix it or at least tell us they are working on it.
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It is passive when you are demanifasted. It happens without you doing something.
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Me either, and let's face it - most players (from what I've seen) that only play Sadako casually don't use her demanifest in chase to take advantage of it.
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Yes but it doesn’t really passively give you value. The invisibility period is very short and she cannot hit while Demanifested so if you want to catch a survivor off guard with it then you have to time it accordingly.
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I agree, I tried to explain that to the guy above too
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She's fine she has one of the most annoying buff already and its unable to her with pallets while demanifested which makes no sense since you still can pallet cloaked wraith.
They all still play that notorious slugging condemn style and abuses in the most annoying ofc maps, the top being dead saloon.
Post edited by buggybug on1 -
They all still play that notorious slugging condemn style
This is not mechanically possible anymore and hasn’t been for like a year now.
makes no sense since you still can pallet cloaked wraithWraith is a different killer with a stronger chase power than Onryō 👍
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Is it deterministic when you're going to be invisible while manifesting? It doesn't seem to be, and if that's the case, this part of her power is luck based, not something that requires specific timing and attention. There would be no "I'm going to start manifesting right now, then double back after 0.3 seconds when I go invisible to get an easy hit". It would just be "I'm going to keep changing direction on this loop while I manifest and maybe I'll happen to get a free hit".
And meanwhile the counterplay is "guess".
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It requires the bare minimum of effort to get value from. Even if you never mind game at loops, it will take survivors time to realize that, and in the meantime they might assume you are and give up distance when they don't know where you are. All you need to do is change direction in loops while demanifested / shortly after manifesting and you will sometimes get free hits. The passive effect does all of the heavy lifting here.
Meanwhile, on the survivor side, there is no real counter. If she happens to go invisible while changing direction you are likely to give up a lot of distance, and it's it's pretty likely to happen before long, as she can keep changing direction until she happens to get close.
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Onepumpwillie the onryu main begs to differ and as i said there are some maps that still can abuse this like tiny pancake rancid abitar. Even on the few remaining big maps he still be pulling off this too but abit tougher.
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Using it at loops is easy; you manifest after gaining distance from the passive while demanifested. She is at 100% speed for 1.5 seconds while manifesting, so she will give up basically none of the distance the passive gains her. A survivor can't reliably play around the invisibility in a loop by anything other than predropping a safe pallet or camping a safe vault, but these are limited, and because of her passive stealth and teleport Sadako usually gets to pick the tile on which the chase starts. So, it is likely to give some very easy hits over the course of the match.
I never called this ability too strong. It has nothing to do with balance. It is just irritating in that it requires little effort to get value out of while being difficult to counter on many tiles. "Nobody complained" (read: there was no outcry) originally because there were many larger problems with her.
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Have you ever played her and used the invisibility?
She is at 100% speed for 1.5 seconds while manifesting
This gives survivors enough time to reach a window or pallet since she can’t body block.
A survivor can't reliably play around the invisibility in a loop by anything other than predropping a safe pallet or camping a safe vault
They can loop just fine, I really doubt you have played her much. This ability is only a mindgame ability and that can be won by either side. Even when Sadako won the mindgame, survivors still often have enough time to reach something, which should not be the case. It is not an optimal play to pre drop pallets against her. You should either camp the pallet until she manifests or loop around it when the loop isn’t super long (which is rarely the case anymore). When pallets are dropped, you can abuse her demanifest mode and perma vault the pallet since she can’t attack you until she is manifest, which vastes a lot of time (this can be done to wraith too).
It is just irritating in that it requires little effort to get value out of while being difficult to counter on many tiles.
It does not, please show me gameplay, how you make it work so easily, because it isn’t especially with the bug, which makes it very bad. 0.7s is almost nothing and isn’t enough to mindgame survivors, because they have way too much time to react and see you coming from a mile away if they aren’t new to the game.
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The passive effect does all of the heavy lifting here.
It is the ability, why shouldn’t it do its job? What do you call huntress hatchets then they also do all the heavy lifting. What do you call spirits phase then, it does also do the heavy lifting. What all those abilities have in common is you have to play them right and outplay them right as survivor, where sadako’s ability is not any different to those abilities, except it is a lot weaker.
You write “you get sometimes hits” yourself, which shows it is far from what you say.
Meanwhile, on the survivor side, there is no real counter. If she happens to go invisible while changing direction you are likely to give up a lot of distance, and it's it's pretty likely to happen before long, as she can keep changing direction until she happens to get close.
That you are able to try a lot of times until it works, is how literally any killer power works, so this is no argument.
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It is a luck-based mindgaming tool that you have infinite attempts at. It will eventually gain you distance, and likely much faster than holding W.
0.7s is enough to cause a 5-6m discrepancy between where the survivor thought you would be and where you actually are. 5-6m would require 20-24 seconds of holding W to make up, and even longer around a loop, so that is huge. You would need to be lucky to get that max effect, but even a fraction of that is still useful.
While playing as her you might just assume you won a mind game or that the survivor wasn't able to see you over the loop, when what actually happened was you changed direction at an opportune time and gained a ton of distance. The opposite is also true for a survivor who decides to leave a loop just as you mind game while invisible; it looks like counterplay, but it's luck. It is impossible to provide gameplay of this from the killer perspective because there is no way to know when you're invisible. You can only really see it from the survivor perspective.
At a safe pallet or safe window, the survivor is fine regardless. You can either vault the window as she's manifesting or throw the pallet down as she's manifesting. If you continue to run the loop, you risk her gaining distance by luck. She can even manifest at the pallet, change directions a couple of times, and likely still get easy distance and a hit in those first four seconds. It is very similar to Wraith, as you say, except you know where Wraith is when you have line of sight, which makes him more consistent to counter.
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Passive abilities should not provide a lot of value if you want skill expression on both sides. This is exactly why everyone hates Skull Merchant. Huntress aims, charges, and throws hatchets. Onryo is just automatically invisible sometimes and doesn't even know when it's happening.
Spirit's phase is similar and I have similar complaints. She is 110%, though, and the phasing effect is weaker, so it's less annoying in practice.
Some other killer powers can force 50/50s, but they nearly always require perception and some mechanical skill to operate, require some level of prediction on the killer's part, and have cooldowns if they're unsuccessful. This is not that. Unless the survivor is already on a safe tile, you can just change direction a couple times for a high likelihood at an easy hit, even at low loops. The only cooldown would be that you'd have to demanifest again if after manifesting you don't end up getting a quick hit, but it requires no prediction, no inputs other than WASD, etc. to get value.
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Okay so I don't mean this rudely but you seem to lack understanding about how the Onryo's intermittent visibility operates. Earlier in the thread you were saying that you weren't aware that Demanifested intermittent visibility and post-Manifestation intermittent visibility operate differently (which anyone familiar with even her addons should be aware of) and now you're claiming there's no way to tell when you're invisible as killer, which is untrue.
The visibility of the Onryo's hands from the killer's perspective lets you know whether you're currently visible or invisible, and if you know how long each period of the intermittent visibility lasts you can use it to time your mindgames accordingly. Just walking back and forth hoping your movements happen to coincide with your very brief invisible period is a woefully inefficient way to play her. Will you sometimes get lucky and make a hit? Sure. But relying on that as your sole chase ability would be slow and unreliable.
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TIL. I always assumed that was for flavor, not synced up. If it syncs up why is everyone here convinced it is hard to get value out of at loops? It should be trivial then.
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There is no difference in it being passive or actively, you still have to time and use it precisely, otherwise you will gain nothing by using it. Skull merchant on the other hand just drops the drown (old version) and gets value while Sadako has to position herself, wait to become invisible and act accordingly, so it is not what say. It also isn’t just turn left and right and hope that something happens, this is extremely predictable for survivors and very inefficient.
Only so you know, your arms disappear and appear, this is how you know when you become invisible, so it isn’t like you say random, you know when you are becoming visible or invisible.
Some other killer powers can force 50/50s, but they nearly always require perception and some mechanical skill to operate, require some level of prediction on the killer's part
Ah and this isn’t the case with her? You don’t have to time anything? You don’t have to first run one direction and then run the opposite way to make the survivors run to you? Survivors can’t predict, what you are doing? - I answer this one, they can, because it is very obvious what she is trying to do. Survivors don’t have extra time to react while you can’t attack, which doesn’t give them additional time to act? You don’t have to understand how the ability works to get use out of it? -Yes, you do.
Unless the survivor is already on a safe tile, you can just change direction a couple times for a high likelihood at an easy hit, even at low loops. The only cooldown would be that you'd have to demanifest again
This is how this game works and will always work. All killer powers work this way. The killer plays it right and the survivor does not, they get the hit. If they messed up, they try again, but the survivors gain time. You are supposed to go down eventually and criticizing this power, which requires a lot more input from the killer side to work over any other killer power is….
but it requires no prediction, no inputs other than WASD, etc. to get value.
It does. You simply do not know about it, I tried to explain it above, but I don’t think I will change your mind.
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Please play her for a few matches until you reach good looping survivors and then come back again and say it is too easy to get value from it, because it is not easy or free.
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As I said in my other reply, I didn't realize the first person VFX matched with her passive invisibility. With other killers with similar abilities, like Freddy or Spirit, it doesn't work like that, so I assumed it was just for flavor.
The fact that you can actually tell when you're invisible makes me dislike this even more than before. It's little different than Chucky "outplaying" a survivor by being too small to see over parts of a loop and passively creating 50/50s. This adds more skill expression as Sadako than I thought, but not very much (since you're still just reacting to it rather than using it proactively), but at the expense of making it even more obnoxious to play against her than if it were random. 1.5 seconds of time at 100% speed is nothing, especially when it takes a fraction of a second to understand she's manifesting and to adjust. That is not a legitimate opportunity for counterplay. Again, you can sit at a safe pallet or window all day, but other than that, you're likely to take an easy hit.
All killer powers do not work this way. Many of the killer powers for killers released since 2020 have shades of this, and many of the killers released since 2020 are also horrendous to play against. This is not a coincidence. The survivor cannot "play it right" against Sadako on a weaker tile. They can guess. Guessing is not counterplay. It is similar to playing against Spirit when they removed her directional phasing noise.
Post edited by notstarboard on0 -
It feels bad if the survivor guesses right, or if you try and fail to fake them out at a safer tile, because she has no other chase power. That doesn't mean the power is fun to play against. It very much isn't. Yet another poor killer design.
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As I said in my other reply, I didn't realize the first person VFX matched with her passive invisibility.
No offence but admitting you don't know the basics of a how a killer's power works kind of undermines any credibility your arguments about said power have.
Of course you're entitled to your opinions, but they're clearly not qualified by any significant experience playing as or against her.
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Friend, there are 37 killers in this game. This works differently than every other similar ability in the game, and is not something you could confirm without side by side testing from killer and survivor POV. Not everyone is going to main your favorite killer and figure out all of those ins and outs. That does not mean that their opinion is invalid.
This conversation reminds me of what happened with Skull Merchant. You have a handful of Skull Merchant mains bemoaning that no one wants to learn her power and that's why they hate her, when in reality, aspects of her power are not intuitive, and even once you know exactly how it works it doesn't get more fun to play against. Information is an issue to some extent, but the fundamental issue is bad design. In this case, I actually think this is more of an issue now that I know that the killer VFX matches the survivor perspective.
I do not have significant experience playing as her, as I have no interest in playing killers I don't find enjoyable to play against, except maybe I have a daily, rift challenge, or adept to get. I have played against her plenty, though. My criticisms are how she feels to play against, not to play as.
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The flicker is pretty weak tho and fun is very subjective. Something is not poorly designed, just because you don’t like it. I like her whole design and how they made her, I would only prefer getting back her first version with the QOL and buffs from the reworks back. I found that version a lot more fun even tho it was weaker in some aspects.
I very much advise you to play her for a while until you reach good looping survivors and then tell me how easy to use it is. I’m pretty sure your opinion will change if you do so.
My survivors always know, where I am even through walls and while invisible, because she has a directional lullaby, that gives away my position and gives basically wall hacks. The invisibility doesn’t work 90% of the time and there is a reason why most people ignore that part of her power completly and think it is very weak.
For now I simply agree to disagree.
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1.2 seconds would be so terrible to go against, she is fine as she is now but needs buffs in other areas of her kit
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That does not mean that their opinion is invalid.
It kind of does. I'd agree if we were talking about anything complex, but these are the fundamentals of her power. Like the very basics of how she works.
Once again, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see any reason to give substantial weight to it when you fundamentally don't understand how she operates.
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I am not saying it is poorly designed because I dislike it. I dislike it because it is poorly designed. Killer powers should have ample room for skillful play on both sides; waiting at a strong window and or pulling a slot machine lever is not skill.
She does have a lullaby while demanifested, but it's relatively subtle and can get overwhelmed by the other game sounds, especially while in a chase, in a way that other lullabies don't. Even with good headphones, I can tell the general direction, but the sound doesn't change linearly with distance so I only have a general idea where she is. And the glitch VFX compound with the invisibility effects to make it tough to figure out how from sight where she actually is.
Yet again, I do not dislike this because it is too strong. I find it irritating. It is easy to use and hard to counter unless you have good tile luck when she shows up. I would prefer to play against a stronger killer that I can actually locate than to take easy hits because passive stretches of invisibility and flickery eye candy make it easy to misjudge where the killer is.
I have yet to see you make a single comment from the survivor perspective on this forum, so it does not surprise me that you enjoy how she feels; the part you are interacting with more feels fine. I usually end up commenting from the survivor perspective on this forum, because it is disproportionately populated by players who only care about the opposite.
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Once upon a time it was a Sadako with 1.5s invisibility and everyone still considered her weak.
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Logically, it doesn't. This is an argument ad hominem. Focus on the merits of the argument, not the person making the argument. If the argument is flawed, you should be able to show that. You already did so once by pointing out my misunderstanding about her power. I suppose now you're bored and/or out of ideas, which is fine, but call it like it is.
This is an easy part of her power to not understand. It is not explained in the in-game power description or on the wiki, you cannot confirm it works this way without testing with a friend, and it is different than how all other similar powers work in the game. Spirit and Freddy do not know when they're invisible to survivors despite having similar abilities, for example. As a result, I would guess that many players don't understand this. You are already in a bubble within a bubble of the overall player base as a Sadako main who is invested enough in the game to have an account on this forum.
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For the fourth time, strong =/= bad to play against and vice versa. I'm going to stop replying at this point because I feel I've already sucked up all the oxygen in this thread.
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I have yet to see you make a single comment from the survivor perspective on this forum, so it does not surprise me that you enjoy how she feels; the part you are interacting with more feels fine. I usually end up commenting from the survivor perspective on this forum, because it is disproportionately populated by players who only care about the opposite.
You are funny. Most people think, I’m heavily survivor biased and that you say that, shows you haven’t read much of what I post here on the forum. You should not accuse me of the something if you don’t know anything about it!!!
This ability is supposed to irritate/confuse you, which is an interesting power and better than getting yet another boring anti loop killer. You simply don’t like it, because you struggle against it, but that does not mean, that the majority does or it is unfair. Just be honest, you don’t like it.
Not to be rude, but you shouldn’t talk about stuff, when you lack a major understanding of it.
Killer powers should have ample room for skillful play on both sides; waiting at a strong window and or pulling a slot machine lever is not skill.
Then you are playing the wrong game. This game is majorly killer sided and the devs want it to be that way. Sadako’s flicker is one of the more skill requiring powers in the game. Like 3/4 of all powers in the game require less skill than this one does.
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This does still not mean you are right!
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Honestly wouldn't waste your time trying to make them understand - they have a bias for survivor which made me lose interest in their (long) point a while ago. We know what the deal is.
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Ugh this is just too saftig, I'm sorry.
If an ability is designed to irritate people, even if it's fun for the side doing the irritating (hello, Legion!), that is fundamentally poor design. This is a video game. The single most important thing is for it to be fun.
I keep making the "strong =/= bad to play against" point as a reminder of something that should be obvious rather than to try to convince you that it's true; I never dreamed anyone would try to deny this. Would it be fun for the survivor if the killer didn't exist and they just got to do gens all match and leave? They'd win 100% of the time! Weakest killer power possible! And yet the game would be mind-numbingly boring. The killer's power needs to be both fun to use and fun to interact with as survivor or it is fundamentally a failure, as this game is only fun because of the interaction between the survivor and the killer.
If you disagree, and this is also the opinion of the community, then yes, the old DBD I loved that is actually fun to play is dead, and instead all we have left is a toxic pit of addiction that at best is fun for one side some of the time. The devs have clearly lost the plot on killer design and balance, so maybe they legitimately don't know or care how horrendous most of the killers released after Oni are to play against (which again, is mostly unrelated to of their strength) or that survivors don't enjoy losing most of their matches any more than killers do.
Edit: From your post history I was clearly wrong about the one-sidedness, though. Not sure if I confused you with someone or if you had some hot takes as I was rejoining the forum that stuck with me.
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Thank you for admitting you don’t like it, instead of claiming it is unhealthy, was it that hard?
About the invisibility being unfun to go against, you are the only person, who is saying this and many other’s obviously disagree with you. Otherwise they would join in and support you.
Maybe this game just isn’t for you anymore and it’s time to move on. (I really hated when someone said this to me, so I’m a bit sorry for saying this)
I found old dbd more fun too, but there is nothing I can change and running behind a leaving plane won’t make you catch it. You will only get unhappy. I don’t like the direction the game is going, because the balance changes (especially maps) are clearly favoring killers and I don’t enjoy survivor anymore, but I would have never started to complain about sadako’s invisibility, because to me it is the least unfair thing in the game.
Post edited by Langweilg on1 -
Blight has his double fatigue bug for... at least 3 years now.
Leatherface still has the bug where he randomly loses all charges during his chainsaw sweep, even after they changed him.
Nurse still has the bug where during fatigue, your camera swings in a nauseating way.
Twins has the bug where Victor bounces off survivors, doesn't deal damage, and lands next to them ready to be kicked.
Plague's visual vomit and its hitbox got desynced a few years ago. Still remains unfixed.
I could go on but I think you can see the pattern
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How and why should this make it any better?
They said, they buff her and it actually was nerfed. When you say you buff something, you should do so and not shadow nerfing something, without even talking about it.
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I agree this is not high on the list of problems with the game; it's just what the topic of this thread happened to be.
You might be right, honestly. It's such a fun game when it hits, and even now you can still find matches that are really fun, but it's quickly getting to the point where the juice isn't worth the squeeze. I don't enjoy playing against about half the killer roster, which in turn means I don't want to play as about half the roster. And in the matches as/against killers I enjoy, you still often end up with sweat lords, toxic players, "go next" hookiciders, etc. that can make the game exasperating to play.
I feel like my idea of what "healthy" is is still back in 2019 killer design. I play more Myers than anyone on the killer side, and it's pretty funny to see him pretty universally on the bottom of tier lists nowadays when he's hardly changed for years and he was always a solid mid-tier killer back in the day. I see people calling for buffs and a rework all over the place, but I still love his design. Oh well.
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