Why do you think WoO needs a drastic change?
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yeah we played together then i recognized the name immediately
sorry I didn’t play well
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yeah that was me. Like I said I just didn’t play well. Made me upset that all escaped and brought the team down. The unknown player we went up against was actually a streamer that I followed snd know well and let’s just say her reaction to the entire game was not very good. Even towards me she knew who I was and still hit me on the hook for using wicked😭
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"Almost nothing"? I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Agree on you that this is what happens with balancing. Of course there will be strong perks that will be the focus of discussion, and when those perks are nerfed then a new perk is suddenly worth to discuss. However, having said this, you did really sound like you are trying to transform this problem into a "us vs them" post favoring survivors, as you did only mention that "when survivors get nerfs, forum killers label a new perk as overpowered" while completely disregarding that survivors do the exact same thing with killer perks. This affects both sides equally, but you did make it sound like its a "killer only" problem.
WoO has been strong since the cooldown was removed, but of course there were stronger perks that got discusses more. I already did point everything the perk can do to help both new and experienced players, and to my surprise i did see other experienced players like Otz have a similar opinion, and keep in mind that im not a "everything Otz says is true" fella, but seeing him having the exact same opinion as me while i though that he was going to put the perk into D or E tier but he did put it on A tier just next to the S tier perks was kinda interesting. The best part is the effect is hella strong and its only a passive that you need no input at all.
So, tldr, helps new players by knowing pallet location, helps experienced players that are already able to extend chases by extending them even more by not going into tiles with broken pallets, and everything of this is just a passive with no cooldown and no input from the player. Perk is extremely strong.
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That was a fun match! We were very lucky to get 3 out.
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Typical response of people not understanding what the perk actually is useful for.
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SWF has always been a scapegoat. As has dh, ds, bt and a couple more. It's the same for the survivor side as well. There are a couple of things complained about that are absolutely not overpowered by any means.
Dbd players in general seem to struggle in the practice of self reflection.
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I hope I play with u again. So that I can make up for that match
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Oh I didn't know the killer was a streamer. If you don't mind pm'ing me the ttv name, I'd like to watch the vod back.
Sorry you kinda got focused out! I was trying to take chase to distract from you.
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As a person who hardly uses WOO, it's hardly a problem.
Most people that I see run WOO are solo-queue or maybe a less coordinated SWF team. Like others have said WOO normally helps people learn tiles and maps (I've actively told newer people I play with to get Kate Denson to learn the RNG of pallets and jungle gyms).
Most SWF can call out where they drop a pallet, especially if they know clock callouts. Therefore, a WOO nerf would only hurt solo-queue and uncoordinated SWF, while doing nothing for coordinated SWF.
Other players are solo-queue to see where a pallet was dropped to avoid going into a dead zone.
Even if you go back to the previous iteration, I would predict people would still use it as it provides utility to keep a chase going especially with how stealth has been obliterated due to excessive use of aura reading in the game.
If you think a survivor is running WOO and you can normally tell, the best thing for you to do is to drop chase and find someone else out of position instead of continually chasing someone going from one pallet to another.
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I did literally explain what can be achieved with the perk. How it helps both new players (know pallets location) and experienced players (know where pallets have been used, making you extend chases by not going into tiles with used pallets already). And you can benefit from everything of this by the perk just virtually existing, with no input from the user.
Except one part can be done with memorisation, and the other part can be done with comms, and can even be achieved as a side effect of other perks like Bond. Windows of Opportunity, by itself, does not increase the potential of what a survivor can achieve in any way, shape or form. Everything that you can do with it, you can do without it.
while completely disregarding that
survivors do the exact same thing with killer perksDo they? Because I'm really only noticing complaints towards new killer perks, or perks that got either directly or indirectly buffed. In other words, when the strength of killer perks actually shifts upwards, there's complaints. When it shifts downwards, survivors don't suddenly take aim at new perks that they didn't have problems with until then.
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Typical response of someone who just wants their op perk untouched
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WoO is a crutch perk the eliminates any need to memorize tiles and turns survivors brain to mush "just run to yellow"
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This community needs a scapegoat to thrust their problems unto and WoO is perfect to blame. Everything is WoOs fault
This is part of the live service conundrum...do you cater to those who yellreally loud or ignore it as heat of the moment rambling?
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part of the live service conundrum
I wouldn't say that's a conundrum but part of the necessary skillset: you listen to your playerbase, you look in the direction their complaints are pointing, and you see if their complaints are valid and if so are the players correctly pinpointing the problem or are they simply pointing at what's easily visible to them and the problem is something else?
The devs have stated before that there can be a large number of complaints about something but the data will say otherwise. Part of being human is that we're biased to remember the bad experiences more than the good ones, which is important to keep in mind when listening to generalized complaints. The devs have to balance complaints and data, and there's no perfect balance. DbD is a large part trial and error because there's no other game like it.
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Except one part can be done with memorisation, and the other part can be done with comms, and can even be achieved as a side effect of other perks like Bond. Windows of Opportunity, by itself, does not increase the potential of what a survivor can achieve in any way, shape or form. Everything that you can do with it, you can do without it.
Bad survivors doesnt rely on memorisation, thats the point of the perk. And being a good survivor doesnt mean you are in a swf with comms. Bond also doesnt let you know dead zones, only if they throw the pallet within your range.
Do they? Because I'm really only noticing complaints towards new killer perks, or perks that got either directly or indirectly buffed. In other words, when the strength of killer perks actually shifts upwards, there's complaints. When it shifts downwards, survivors don't suddenly take aim at new perks that they didn't have problems with until then.
Yes, they totally do. And they also do it with killers, complain about the one that is broken at the moment and then complain about the next one when it is nerfed.
But anyways, WoO is the most picked perk from survivors at least from Nightlight site. And before you say "if pick rate means a perk is good, then why self care was still not nerfed after it had that high pick rate?", there is a big difference. Self care was mostly used on newbies and agreed on that it was a horrible perk on most situations by people who know how to play the game. On this case, WoO is agreed that its really strong on newbies and a very good perk on many experienced people (at least by the experienced people themselves). And yet WoO is competing in pick rate with perks like Lithe, Adrenaline… perks that are known for being extremely good.
Everything points that WoO will be nerfed at the end, and it deserves it.
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Sometimes we are irrational and our opinions should be discarded. The best examples I can think of are release CoH, Boil Over and the RPD Library.
I know multiple people who argue to this day still that they should add thr Library back to RPD and should be able to run up there with no Hooks up there and bless the totem there with old unlimited super self care. That was how many years ago now?
We all know none of that can ever come back. Obviously WoO is nothing like any of that, but many people who play this game play only one side.
I don't think I'm expressing what I want to say properly enough that's not just interpreted as a long winded "mad cuz bad" so I hope you get the gist.
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WoO and visual heartbeat are both interesting, they're very good in their intended purpose. (Helping new players learn map layouts and audio impaired people) however, at the same time they're used by a majority of the people because it makes the game easier. (veterans can use the info from WoO to chain loops and take the gamble out of going to a loop while visual TR mostly eliminates the need to make a judgement on the killer's proximity.) I think the best solution going forward is introducing more sources of blindness through addons and perks so the counter to that is for survivors to become more situationally aware of what's going on while afflicted.
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Another one who doesnt understand the usefulness of the perk.
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It makes me wonder what's next on the chopping block once WOO gets nerfed.
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You become better with the perk because you haven't memorized where pallets and windows spawn.
Of course, a person will perform better if you have a perk that tells you to run to safety to avoid being in a dead zone. Behavior wants the game to be more chase oriented, so they nerfed stealth gameplay.
Now people want to nerf WOO, once Distortion was nerfed. Survivors need some type of playstyle to have whether it's stealth, chase, or gen progression. Just because you play better and are good at looping the killer when you throw it on doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. I hardly if ever use the perk and I can loop the killer because I've taken the time to learn where pallets and windows are. All the perk does is give information to solo-queue and uncoordinated SWFs.
When I play SWF, my team can tell me where a pallet was dropped so that I know that beforehand. A solo-queue player doesn't know that and will often run to a dead zone and die because there's no way for them to know that the pallet was used unless they run WOO or Any Means Necessary.
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If it's not strong, it doesn't need nerfing. Survivors still need to know how to run tiles to use this perk. There's no way around that learning curve just by using this perk, as you suggest. That's like saying gen defence is OP because it makes killers skip chasing experience. The way you get use of those perks is by being good in chase. There's no imaginary alternate path that these perks create that let you use them yet not be good at the game.
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I think I understand what you're saying, but I still believe that's part of listening and determining if there's really a problem or not. It doesn't matter how many people want something "fun" back if it was unhealthy for the game. For balance elements devs need to have the skills/experience to make judgements that lead to a healthier game.
(Before someone else says anything about killer nerfs: it gets more complicated if we include disconnects as part of "loud," but disconnects disrupt matches and disrupt game balance in a way being loud on Twitter and the forums doesn't, so… yeah, I wouldn't include that here. That's a different conversation entirely.)
not just interpreted as a long winded "mad cuz bad"
You don't come off that way to me at all.
Edit: I should point out that I don't necessarily think BHVR is good at balancing their game. They make knee-jerk reactions when things are off-balance which lead to things swinging wildly in the opposite direction. If they do have trouble discerning whether or not to listen to the loud voices in their community, I believe they haven't been working on the right skills, because analyzing customer feedback and interpreting data are indeed skills.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on1 -
I think with a game of this size, it's pretty common to have people who prefer to play one side over the other. I agree with what you've said, such as the old part of library being placed in the game, along with the old versions of CoH and Boil Over.
I think the problem with the community is always about nerf this, thing gets nerfed, and then another thing needs to be nerfed. It's always something needs to be nerfed, nerfed, nerfed.
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I'm going to go with the standard killer response when talking about getting perks nerfed...you should be happy that I'm running woo. That's one less gen rush perk I'm running.
If you nerf woo, I'm just going to run another gen rush perk.
You don't like gen rush perks, but chase perks are a no go as well. What perks are we allowed to run?
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Windows doesn't need a nerf. It's absolutely perfectly fine and balanced the way it is. High use rate doesn't mean it's overpowered.
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It is overpowered only because of the tremendous value it provides, which only ramps up as the player is better/more experienced. I run it regularly as survivor mostly for the meta data it provides, seeing when pallets get used up, walls broken, etc. It tells you a lot of extra info contextually on top of its strong baseline usage for routing mid chase. Empathy and Bond are similar in how much metadata they can provide (especially now that the chase indicators were added) but their core effects are not as strong as WoO.
I don't necessarily think it should be nerfed, but we need to be realistic about why its considered overpowered: It provides too much value for a single perk slot compared to other perks in general, let alone other aura perks. Its just outclassing them too much when you know how to glean the extra info instead of just following the yellow waypoints.
Again, is it OP? I say yes. Should it be changed? not necessarily. It just outclasses its competition in almost every single way, thus putting it well ahead of the curve.
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The same can be said about the abundance and power creep of killer tracking perks. Finding survivors and predicting mindgames used to be a skill that veteran killers needed to learn. The general elimination of game sense mattering on both sides is noticeable.
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I am in camp "even though there are issues, don't nerf WoO", but just for being a little bit pendantic: if a perk receives a nerf, but its still wildly used afterwards, thats a good indicator that it WAS indeed too strong. Though it could also be that the perk just has no alternatives and even though its now nerfed, there just isn't any alternative. In the hypothetical case of WoO, it could very possibly fall into both.
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Another one who's a mindless surv sheep
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I suppose you can make that argument, but with how Behavior has nerfed the stealth aspect - people will always gravitate towards chase and gen related perks.
That's why I'm saying that even if it was taken back to its previous form, I still wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top ten most used perks especially with aura reading being so prevalent and the importance of extending your chases.
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Killer main, here. If anything, I'd actually give this perk a WoO a buff. Since Zanshin Tactics is the killer equilivent of WoO and recently got a second effect added on to it, I don't really have much of an issue with WoO getting a second effect as well.
As for the main effect of WoO, I don't really have a problem with it. If anything, its got me to rethink how strong the blindness status effect is, and has be using some Blindness perks and addons more often1 -
Just for being a little bit pendantic, again :P
There is one very little difference between WoO and Zanshin Tactics, one could even say that they were absolutely opposite in one aspect: before the nerf to Zanshin Tactics with like 0,6% pickrate, this perk was on the very, very, very last place of the killer perk list, while WoO was the very, very, very first pick for survivors with nearly 30% pick rate, clearly this two were NOT the same, even though their effect was very similar, but no one ever used Zanshin Tactics, besides Onis on their adept run and Arinad, the Clown maniac who wrote a book about Clown tactics. This numbers will now for sure shange, was Zanshin is now a proper perk, but I just wanted to throw this in ^_-
Killers just can't glean this much valuable information from just knowing where vaults and pallets are, while this information is extremely useful for survivors.
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i am NOT calling it overpowered, i am saying that many people with lot of hours use it as nothing but a pure crutch because they don't know aby map they are playing on, they just embrace the "i see yellow, i run to yellow mentality".
God forbid somebody complains that perk that is supposed to help new players is actively being used by veteran players to serve as a bandaid for their refusal to learn maps and tiles, yall are truly insufferable when somebody actually mentions skill.
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What your missing is that WoW is "strong" in the sense as it gives aid throughout the match that otherwise would only be available through learning how the tiles work and memorizing where they are. Survivors don't need to really know hows tiles work unless they are brand new when WoW guides them along it, They pretty much just need to learn the timing of the various killers and mind games in order to play the tile but the tile itself and how to loop it is mute.
Post edited by CleanseThis on1 -
Im acknowledging WoW is useful, too useful.
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i dont think it needs a nberf, its fine but i will say that i have gotten frustrated because people with that perk chain loops perfectly. I find it hard to do these perfect paths around loops and mind games and stuff, so a competent looper who can perfectly chain each loop together makes it a bit annoying. players who know maps but dont have that perk dont chain loops as perfectly well. without the perk you dont have a way to see which pallets have been dropped/broken
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“God forbid somebody complains that perk that is supposed to help new players is actively being used by veteran players to serve as a bandaid for their refusal to learn maps and tiles, yall are truly insufferable when somebody actually mentions skill.”
You guys complain about everything tho and then once the thing you complain about gets nerfed, you move on to the next thing. The complaining never stops
Also again. How are survivors supposed to know when a a pallet has been dropped by someone else when it’s their turn to get chased?
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I use it because it lets me know what walls/windows/pallets have spawned without ever needing to see the area first hand.
It removes a level of rng/risk from my gameplay.
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Your first sentence literally explained why it's a "crutch for bad Survivors".
That perk makes you way better than you actually are in the game, compensating your lack of skill. Besides, WoO users won't learn anything about spawning because all they do is simply run to the Yellow. Take the aura away, and they can't even loop for 10 seconds.
You know, once I played several matches with Third Seal + Penti + Plaything, and Survivors I chased have literally no idea how to loop at all, UNTIL the totem is cleansed. THAT IS A PROBLEM.
That's why I personally won't use this perk as Survivor. Same goes for Distortion, I never run the perk because they're literally clutch, and you won't learn anything from it.
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If Windows of Opportunity is a crutch perk for survivors, you could say the same thing about aura reading perks.
Windows of Opportunity does help people learn the layouts of maps because it practically tells them that most entryways to jungle gyms have pallets or where the window is located on each wall of said jungle gym.
Both in my opinion, yes -- are playing with autopilot, hence why I just said earlier that I don't need to use the perk because I have thousands of hours in the game.
As I've mentioned prior, the game is shifting towards a chase oriented playstyle since stealth was gutted, so where are survivors going to go off to for builds? Chase? Gen? Endurance? We already see a person complaining about an endurance meta. What do you want survivors to run when there's no viable counters to aura reading? Lol.
Just because you played a game where Third Seal was active doesn't mean survivors don't know how to loop and it also depends on the MMR that you're in.
If Windows allows a survivor to extend their chase, aura reading that allows the killer to pinpoint their exact location is a crutch perk as well and its only strong in situations of solo-queue and uncoordinated SWF, but let's punish solo-queue even more when there are perks and add-ons that inflict blindness which killers do not utilize but will come onto the forums to complain or simply will not drop chase.
edit: Also, how is Distortion a crutch perk? Can you explain?
Post edited by CautionaryMary on3 -
Every perk ( or actually useful perk at least) makes you "better than you actually are in the game", like what does that even mean. If this is true than gen regression makes killers better, and if without it they couldn't stop survivors from doing the generators in time, then they actually must just be bad at the game.
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People that think WOO needs a nerf dont play much surv in my opinion. They just see people running it every game and assume it is op. It is just a good quality of life perk, but there is no way it is an op perk or strong as things like exhaustion perks, deli, ub, etc.
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horrible take
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Windows of Opportunity is fine as it is.
Granted, many survivors use it as a crutch perk to help them locate pallets - I am not one of them, fortunately. I know my tiles pretty well.But it is great for beginners, learning the ropes of the game. Couple WoO with Open Handed (Ace) and you have a super-long range tracking on every available window and pallet around you.
Windows of Opportunity does not need to be changed. Let it be!
Edit: You know how to counter WoO? - Simple thing. Don't chase the survivor too far from the area you are supposed to guard - If they run to shack, a T+L or a long wall, just leave them and go back to pressure gens instead.
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WoO is not overpowered, and is not even close to it. It's just that the bar for survivor perks has dropped through the floor, especially with additions like Weaving Spiders.
Well said.
It seems to me that the idea nowadays is to make every survivor perk equally mediocre, so you can run whatever you choose to run and not feel the difference. Unsurprisingly, Windows of Opportunity is one of the most used survivor perks these days, and it was generally seen as a beginner perk in the past.
Its effect is nowhere near as useful as other survivor perks used to be, but objectively it provides more than the entire sea of perks that are either extremely niche, or have been changed to a point where they are no longer good.
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Ironically enough, I feel like WoO gained prominence precisely because good survivor perks were relatively even after that Attack on Titan update.
If it doesn't matter what you run really, why not pick something comfy like WoO? It felt nice after these metas where survivors HAD to run this and that.
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Yeah, exactly. I use Sprint Burst primarily in all of my builds, besides the odd Lithe and I'm sure some can call that a "crutch" perk.
Thank you for the previous poster who mentioned how a perk will always enhance your gameplay and make you better.
I've seen, at least in my games many survivors who know how to take chase without Windows — but Windows primarily only helps people who NEED that information like solo-queue as I've addressed ad nauseum.
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How is that any different from killers who 'just run to red'? Killers can always see the aura of every generator on the map, no perk required. Following your logic, you could argue that being able to see generators removes the need for killers to memorize their locations. So why is it unrealistic to expect killers to know gen locations, but survivors have to memorize every tile on every map? It feels pretty hypocritical, especially since killers don't need a perk to see gens at all times. If WoO were base-kit, then we’d have a fair comparison, but it's not—it's just a perk, and it's not even on a free character.
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I'll be honest, I don't remember much from the AoT collab. I
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Guarding gens is literally a killers jobs which is why seeing auras is basekit survivors main objective is to do gens not pallets which is why its not basekit and too strong as a perk
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