The longer the developers wait with the WOO nerf, the worse it gets
Nobody can tell me that newcomers make up the majority of the player base. Times have changed. Many players don't want to memorize all the map layouts, and perks like windows of opportunity are especially helpful for newcomers. However, this also leads to survivors getting too comfortable.
When playing with perks like Hex third Seal, this is noticeable. Most survivors suddenly run around the map like chickens. Completely uncontrolled.
But one thing is clear: If the developers want to change the meta, they HAVE to adapt the WoO
I haven't played WoO for a long time and I'm already busy memorizing all the layouts to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)
is just a tip from me 😉
@edit no gen limit its hex third seal im sry^^
Comments
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I'm already busy memorizing all the layouts
Is it really that hard?
Woo just shows you pallets that weren't used.
That's it.
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genetic limit exhaust the survivor. window of opportunity is not exhaustion perk. it is aura perk… only affected by blindness. In every single game, new players and lesser experience player always make up for at least 60% of player-base, if not more.
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Windows of Opportunity is fine. It does not need nerfs
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Tell em' king
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…Sooo first off genetic limits doesn't affect windows of opportunity. Blindness does, not exhaustion.
Second while we see survivors very often using it as a crutch, its fine as is. Its information. Clever players can use that info well and in more meaningful ways, others will simply burn through resources and make it harder for their team later. Its getting old seeing these same posts about windows.
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just want to say this perk literallt unlocks auto pilot mode for survivors. for example on "the game" map yesterday i just ran to the yellow pallets and looped killer for 3 gens, without WOO it would be impossible to tell which pallets were previously dropped by survivors
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Seriously just stop with the windows nerf demands. literally not a game changing perk at all and killers have Zanshin Tactics they can run.
If the OP doesn’t run the perk then great. Why try to nerf it for people that do? Makes me wonder if this isn’t killer pretending to be survivor to make it look like survivors the the perk. 🤣
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I'm already busy memorizing all the layouts to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)
I mean, while that is part of learning to play survivor, the devs also keep reworking maps, changing tiles, and making weird new tiles. You learn the layout, and then it gets changed and you have to unlearn what you knew and figure out the new layout.
So, "to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)" could mean survivors should learn the maps in case WoO gets gutted. "to make it easier in the future (in case something happens)" could also mean learning the maps is a waste of time because the maps can and will be updated and changed in the future.
Also, some people are just bad at direction or discerning certain details. No matter how many times I've been on Hawkins (back when it was first released and once again now that it's returned), I always get confused and turned around because I'm bad with direction and there aren't enough landmarks in the hallways to clue me in as to where I am. My friend learned it (and he plays less than I do), but I can't.
I don't even run WoO anymore, though I'm thinking of putting it on for a little bit to help me understand what in the world happened with some of these maps. I ran to a tile on Coldwind and was stumped as to what the hell the maze-like wall configuration was supposed to be good for because I didn't see a pallet anywhere. Having learned the map's old layout was not only useless but a detriment.
I'm not saying survivors shouldn't learn the maps, just that there are multiple ways to look at this. The maps change, and people's brains work differently, they have trouble with direction or memorization or spatial perception. Something that works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else. Everyone should keep that in mind. Plus, as was pointed out above, memorizing layouts won't help you guess what your teammates threw down when they were being chased.
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I mean, WOO is a training wheels perk, which is a good thing, the problem comes when the training wheels come off.
But it's fine. Running to yellow and predropping everything will eventually bite the survivors back. (Unless you're on The Game, good luck to you then)
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Killer Aura Perks needs nerfs first. Insane that they can see the survivors almost all the time. Also, some people don't no-life the game and don't want to memorize every map detail.
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And another one who doesnt know why WoO is used so much. Its getting boring.
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gen regression > gen blocking > aura reading
literally no aura reading perk is even meta anyways, only nowhere to hide is commonly used because it goes well with pop rest is only used by pyramid head or huntress full aura builds
edit: forgot about lethal pursuer
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Not my experience.
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Nothing I've seen has convinced me that the perk needs a nerf. And this is coming from apparently "the most killer-biased, 'must be trolling!' killer main" on these forums. I think hatch needs to go, I think the 6+ year DS/Dead Hard meta needs to be broken, and that we should start looking at character speeds because survivors are too fast compared to the killer. In spite of all that, I disapprove of a Windows nerf. It lets you plan your route, similar to killer's aura reading perks. It's not an exhaustion perks, not a second chance perk, nor a gen speed-up perk, which to many killers means it's a wasted perk slot. So let survivors waste the perk slot in exchange for a meta perk; it's to your benefit! Why would you want it to go away?
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So I can play the game for the first time, and just start looping experienced killers, because I have Windows? What you're advocating for with The Game example is what killers are already doing, simply hoping that the survivors they face aren't SWF, or hoping they lack game knowledge. That's not skill; that's just luck of the draw. What we want to do is beat them with our skill. Wouldn't that be a better direction for the game?
And honestly, you have to view survivor nerfs from an almost economic perspective. For whatever upswing we get (survivor nerfs/killer buffs), there's gonna be an equal downswing (killer nerfs/survivor buffs). And so wasting one of the few survivor nerfs we get on Windows of all things? It's gonna turn out terrible. We will get less than nothing... in exchange for nothing. When survivor perks get reworked (almost never truly 'nerfed'), they don't even go that far down in strength. It's more like they're weaker in some areas but stronger in others, like toolboxes, like Buckle-Up, etc.
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Can we please stop trying to get every half way decent Survivor perk in the game nerfed for a moment? Please, I'm tired.
I don't personally like WoO. Seeing all that yellow crap kills the horror vibe for me completely, but I don't begrudge anyone else who wants to run it. You can argue that players should learn the maps and tile spawns, I guess (could be neat if BHVR might add the option for Survivors to practice in the custom mode. But no rush I guess, the game's only been out for 8 years). But also, this is a video game. Not a homework assignment.
Anyone who thinks WoO needs a nerf should be shouting equally loudly for a nerf to every Killer aura perk. If one side should be allowed to turn their brain off while playing the game, then the other should be allowed to as well.
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Also all aura add ons needs go and reworked else heck i wouldnt mind them to be like ghost face add on that when he marks someone a gen gets regressed.
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Oh no, not this thread again… Let me out !
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Windows doesn't help in looping, bad survivors still will die even in god pallet.
Aura perks are simply info, it doesn't catch survivor for you (except Nurse and some specific situations on few others, of course).
These two facts is what community seems like want to ignore at all cost.6 -
Looks like they found the next perk to blame everything on. WOO is fine as is.
The crybabies already destroyed Distortion, leave the rest of the perks alone. Nothing is problematic at the moment.
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I mean it's not hard to know where palettes could spawn, 90% of the maps have the same structures and a main building. Windows only tells you where they actually spawned and if they are still up, windows doesn't make you suddenly better at pathing or something it just ensures that you don't run into nothing. xD
Would everyone be able to tell the other survivors which palettes where used and where they spawned I'd maybe think about it, but at moment I think it would only hurt solo-queue very badly and doesn't make a huge difference for the rest
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Nah they just gonna keep going till we start the match right by the hooks with 2 hooks states on the ground ready to be hooked.😀 This perk actually was lonq qq about even before distortion complaints its that bad.
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See, I am quite in support of not nerfing WoO, but someone always has to bring up this notion here, ie "killers wil only be happy once survivors start the trial on the hook". I understand that its sarcasm, but what do you expect to gain by stating something this far removed from any reality? Its not funny, its not clever, its not helping you dismanteling the others cause, so why does this exact thing creeps up ALL the time? I seriously don't understand it. But I also don't understand the stronk urge to wait fuitile for 2min at the exit gates for the off-chance that the killer wants to admire your twerking skillz.
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Yeah idk. The perk that just removes a skillful part of the game getting buffed to have no cooldown is weird to me even to this day. Still feels like this perk was buffed specifically for solo Q and now I see teammates running from pallet to pallet isnta dropping it leaving me with nothing.
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Map memorization has never been the main reason why WoO is the most used perk in the game. How do people still not get that in nigh-2025?
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I understand that its sarcasm, but what do you expect to gain by stating something this far removed from any reality? Its not funny, its not clever, its not helping you dismanteling the others cause, so why does this exact thing creeps up ALL the time?
It may be sarcasm, but it paints a vivid picture in the reader's head that illustrates killers as being unreasonable. Bolstering your own argument by trying to discredit the other side is a common tactic. People on the forums don't do it right, though, they lack any subtlety with ad hominem. They start at 100 and then have nowhere to go, and if someone starts at 100 they come off as lacking credibility, but they don't get that. (I don't think people necessarily understand this is what they're doing, they're just copying what they see everyone else on the internet doing and so at this point 99% of people don't understand you're not actually supposed to do this in an argument. It's not just a fallacy; it can also make the person using it look silly and childish.)
Or the person gets killers responding "nuh-uh, survivors" and it becomes a survivor vs killer fight, which no one ever wins, but it derails any sensible argument. So many DbD threads get closed for that reason.
Edit: You probably already knew this. I mostly wrote this out in the hopes even one person might read it and adjust their argument style in the future.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on5 -
Thank you :) Yeah, thats why I am always happy with your responses, they are well thought out and rather sophisticated and lack the crude and crass quality that I lamented in my own post. Carry on, no matter how tragic :P
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It’s an exaggeration that survivors should begin on hooks, but it’s absolutely true that some killer mains (not all) do want survivors weaker than they currently are. It’s absolutely true that some killer mains (not all) want the killer win/kill rate at 80%+ for various reasons. It’s absolutely true that some killer mains have stated the game would be more ‘horror-like’ and ‘realistic’ if survivors only had one health state from the start of trial and no perks at all. I’m not sure if you’re ever on the DBD Reddit but that’s where the more extreme takes occur. In any case people actually do advocate for this stuff, and if you’re on the forums often you’ll occasionally see these extremist perspectives pop up. I think people are more likely to shame or attack those ideas on the forums so they don’t usually last long, or the people who present them have to pretend they’re moderate. But this doesn’t really happen on the DBD reddit so it’s much easier to find these takes there.
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Since wanna play us vs them lets play. First of all you can hit the survivors out the gate, it also gives you bp for it, if t bagging at the gates bothers you dont go to it ,tab and do something else( just like we are told when we are slug for 4mins on the ground) break walls or pallets that you didnt do in the trial or simply dont go to the gate?
I never go to the gate and it actually makes survivors more mad you didnt let their stuff at the gate bother you. Before you call out me look at you going off topic brining up t bagging at the gates.
I at least am on topic because its another killer cry baby complaint of nerfing something on survivor so it makes perfect sense
Also yes apparently its indeed that killers want is just auto hook auto win 2 hook on ground because until you can tell me ONE thing killers do not whine about it makes sense I said what said. What do yall seriously want us to do or how are we to play then?
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When the devs stop removing more and more pallets from maps, then we can talk
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Bro went on a whole rant, before he finally came around to answer my question :D But thanks for the response, even though I don't really get how you read any "us vs them" vibes into that statement of mine; I guess that you are really under pressure right now and need to let of some steam - thats okay, we have all been at that place at one point.
I got your back and will humor you. My mentioning of the exitgates wasn't my main point, but it was an illustration of some sarcasm done well, or at least better: slightly over the top, but not rediculesly out of proportion. I know fully well how to react to survivors urge to twerking, but your advise has been noted and I am eager to try them out myself! If you allow me the small tangent: I have been slugged and bleed out by killers less enough that I can still count it on both hands, and the same can be said about the amount of times that survivors would just leave and not at last one stay behind to wait out the hook timer, so one happens disproportionate more often ^_-
But Bro, listen: I gave you an easy way out of this situation via commedy, YET you insist that your statement was not meant in jest, but full on serious … I mean, everyone is allowed their own oppinon, but with this kinda statements your credibility will just be tossed out of the window and no one will take you or your shonen MC vibes serious.
But okay, lets give you an honest answer: just as SURVIVORs, KILLERs are a very diverse group consisting of many, many different individuals. Not everyone is the same, I know, surprise, surprise, and there are probably as many oppinions, if not more so, then players in the respective group. We tend to generalize things a bit when we talk about "hur dur, all survivors do this and that", but usually we don't mean factually ALL of them, but just a majority or even sizable chunk.
WIth a playerbase as big as DBDs there is bound to be someone complaining about every little aspect of the game, heck I even saw someone complaining about Red Herring at one point. But just because one Killer did, its not that the whole Killer population is up in arms against Red Herring. In the past you saw a big, big chunk of the killer base complaining about DH and first itteration MFT and, yeah, Distortion. This were all problematic perks (Distortion to a lesser extend, I mostly vied for the nerf of DH and MFT, but thats another story) and you saw many, many different players of all walks of life argue back and forth.
But since DH and MFT got nerfed, most killers are quite okay with exhaustion perks and acknowledge that they are akin to powers for survivors and play an important part in their kit. Yeah, I sometimes grown and grit my teeth when a survivor escapes with a Lithe over a dropped pallet at a weak loop or all survivors zoom off with SB as soon as I get close to the gen, but you wont find my coming back to the forums and asking for nerfs for this perks, essentially moving the goalpost. Most killers don't - someone here and there does. Thats just the nature of the beast, so "showing you a single thing thats not complaint about killers" would essentially proof nothing - but I bet that you would be hardly pressed to find scores over scores of complaints about SB and Lithe, even though they are the most used exhaustion perks right now. Capiche?
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You don't say? Anyways Ayodam already gave vital information clarifying what I actually mean so I trust you understand, have a good one mate.
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You are absolutely right. I got something mixed up. I am of course talking about “Hexed Third Seal” and similar perks.
And for those who think WoO is good. No problem, you'll be the first to scream when something is changed.
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WOO is not a problem at all.
It helps beginners, sure. So what?
I know for a fact one of the best survivor players out there (zubatlel, won the US vs EU 1vs1) is using it.
That's the whole spectrum of survivors right there.
I'm not using it myself (I still have the genetics of a Blendette) and I don't have any issue with it from the killer's side.
Leave it alone.
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leave it alone ? excuse me but,
I respect your opinion, no problem, but whether you like it or not, WoO is used to drag out chases unnecessarily and therefore hurts... and SoloQ is just used as an excuse for many things. That's my opinion, don't be mad.
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Mad? Why?
I'm trying to understand the issue.
used to drag out chases unnecessarily
I'm pretty sure the survivor keeping being alive finds it necessary.
I understand it can be frustrating for the killer but it's only an indication of key points. It doesn't change the mind games available to both parties. (And please don't imagine for one second I'm pro-survivor. I play both roles.)
used as an excuse for many things
Like what? What could possibly require any kind of excuse? Especially for soloQ that needs all the help it can get?
If a perk allows a survivor to suck less without being overpowered (it only helps to route) it's all good.
The impression I get, without being sure, is that you think it makes survivors stronger loopers than they would be without the perk *. And you would be right. However it's not the "wrong kind" of stronger so it's not enough to warrant a nerf.
It's not broken like OoO, Dead Hard, DS, Made for This and so many other perks have been in the past.
*) Yes I've read all about the memorisation argument. On the killer side I'm a Nurse main. I know all maps in 3D literally with my eyes closed. That's a must for a Nurse. I don't believe it is so for anybody else.
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a nurse never has problems with WoO. Shes the best Killer ingame
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"Main" only means shes my first. I play other killers too. All except Skull Merchant, Vecna and Dracula.
I've got more than 20k hatchets throws with Huntress, and she's not exactly easy against good loopers. I did the event with her, Doctor, Hag, Wraith, Billy, Blight, …
I had a bloody long chase with Doctor against a p100 survivor who gave me all the trouble in the world (current hitbox automiss bug helped him twice). Still got him in the end.
It doesn't change anything about WOO.
And if you think Nurse is easy, then by all means play her. See how far you'll go. She has counters and the players you end up versing know them all. She's great but it's not all peaches and roses.
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Yes, Google Maps The Perk should be nerfed. Im tired of watching teammates and opponents bot path from pallet to pallet instead of learning to make the most out of tiles. Pick rate rivaling old dead hard, i often see 4 copies in a match as killer.
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just run zenshin and stop crying
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Windows does not need a nerf. If you as a killer have an issue with survivors knowing where pallets/windows are or knowing which pallets their teammates have used, that is a skill issue. You should not be relying on your opponents not knowing the map to win unless you are a newer player who cannot play around pallets. The issue of "shift W predrop is too strong" and "but what about the game" are actual issues but ones that are not related to Windows but rather core of the game, that should be fixed in another way. If weaker killers were able to play around the stronger pallets with at least a little more efficiency, and the game map was nerfed, windows would not be an issue at all.
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It can help survivors extend the chase.
Just let survivors have SOMETHING that helps them. Most of their perks got nerfed to the ground.2 -
Sure, but also nerf Pain and Pop
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Its sad killers are crying over WoO when they have the exact same perk with aura reading added to it. is it used by them, no in most cases cause they have better. Survivors on the other hand don't really have better cause all the main staples they had before where gutted.
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Anybody worth their salt at survivor knows that WOO isnt even in the top 20 strongest perks in the game.
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That's why it ends up being used in competitive 1v1s. To show all the pallets that your non existent teammates used.
Seriously though - it's not that simple. WoO isn't just to show which pallets have been used. It's to tell you where to go. It's map sense in a perk. The fact that you can tell when someone has it vs someone who doesn't, given that the people who run it BEELINE from pallet to pallet and, more times than not, predrop that same pallet, is problematic. Perks shouldn't play the game for you, and WoO is, for all intents and purposes, autopilot.
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And yet, it's the most used survivor perk in the game.
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Pain Res and Pop have been nerfed. Many times.
The thing is, pain res and pop have limited uses, and they have to be earned. In Pop's case, you have to chase, hit, chase more, hit again, pick up, carry survivor to hook, go ALL the way to the gen, kick the gen. Then and only then do you have any value from the perk. Pain Res doesn't require you to walk to the gen, but Scourge spawns are so finicky you may never get to use it.
Windows of Opportunity has no earning requirement, it just gives you one of the most powerful pieces of information a survivor can have, that being map sense, for free; and it's always there.
Your comparison makes zero sense.
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Survivors have plenty of things. But permanent map sense contained in a perk completely for free is too much.
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