General Discussions
General Discussions
The longer the developers wait with the WOO nerf, the worse it gets
Comments
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WoO is used to drag out chases unnecessarily and therefore hurts...
How is it doing this, exactly?
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What are these “plenty of things”? I’m curious.
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WOO has nothing to do with map sense. Gosh, how often will we still see this nonsense?
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If you don't think showing you, constantly with no cooldown, where every vault and pallet are, has nothing to do with map sense, sadly, it's you who doesn't understand map sense. Case and point to my original statement.
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Just because they aren't free second chances, doesn't mean they don't have great stuff. Expand your mind, and your skill set.
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Playing the devils advocate with that sentiment
Exactly, learn how to adapt to situations on the fly.You’re already following the survivors trail, a guiding beacon (a lifelike aura, one could say) on where you need to path to, so now you just need to adapt to what it is they lead you to.
How do you react to each new possible loop, resource, or layout presented to you?
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You complain so much, yet killers still have over 60% kill rate. If you want to play a game even more tilted in your favor, go play a pve game on easy mode.
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Killer sees aura of gens, gates, every rushed action, scratch marks, billion aura reading perks, screams, killer power showing survivor locations, basically holds w towards the glowing notifications the entire match.
Also enjoys having the developers make the game easy for them with laughably high kill rates.
Same killer: "Woo needs nerf because survivor like seeing yellow".
It's never enough for them.
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People will keep using the "Its only good on beginners" (notice the "only" word highlighted) to try their best to not get the perk nerfed and thats a blatant lie.
Perk also helps experienced people by knowing where a pallet has been thrown by a teammate. Keep in mind that not all experienced prople are 4-man swf with comms.
Otzdarva explained it pretty well on his last survivor perk tier list video. Hell when i started seeing the video i though he was going to put the perk in D or E tier and ended at the top of the A tier just below S tier and the strongest perks. For beginners, it helps them knowing the pallet spawns. For experienced people, it helps them knowing where the pallets have been thrown by a teammate.
You can be god at looping, then when you are getting chased you can go into a tile with a very strong pallet only to see that the pallet has already been thrown and broken. Most of those tiles means the killer gets a hit. With WoO you would not have run to this tile and instead you could have went into another one which still had a pallet, with the possibility to keep extending the chase over and over and keep buying time for your teammates.
And all of this for free, because the perk has no activation method or cooldown.
The perk is not "overpowered", but very, very, very strong and nerf-worthy.
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All i can say is that I play much better when i have WoO equipped. Idk if it should get nerfed though…maybe a bit less range?
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I'm pretty sure I've stated it was good on the whole spectrum. It was even a factor as to why that perk was good as it was.
Why an "A" perk should be nerfed?
And it's not "for free". It uses a perk slot.
What's the big idea breaking what doesn't need to be.
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Honestly i didnt quote you because the "Its only good for beginners" its an argument that a lot of people are using, so i wasnt directly quoting you on this matter.
It needs to be nerfed because….it is extremely strong? As i said, i dont think the perk is "overpowered" (and those should also be nerfed) but is still strong. Just because there are more broken perks doesnt mean this one should absolutely stay.
Thats literally like saying "as long as Nurse exist, never nerf another killer at all, as long as it is weaker than Nurse".
And you knew exactly what i was saying when i said "for free". You need absolutely zero input.
For the killer to get value from the perk Eruption it needs first to kick a gen and then to down a survivor. And one of the complains people had for the old eruption is that "it was for free".
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A lot of people say silly things on this forum. Sometimes I'm flabbergasted at what some people dare to say. (It's like they don't realise we play the same game and devs have actual statistics.)
I agree the perk is strong. I'm all for strong stuff as long as it's not OP. And I don't believe it's OP. I don't believe many things are mind you. The way I see it most of the OP stuff has been fixed a while ago. (old DS, DH, MFT, …)
Weak perks should be made more desirable. (So should be weak killers. Who's at the top right now? Wesker? Chucky?)
I honestly didn't get what you meant by "for free". If you mean "need absolutely zero input" please say so. I'm not a mind reader.
(And thanks for the example, now I understand better)
People who have said the old eruption was "for free" were wrong IMHO. (See sentence at the top of this reply.) Two wrong don't make a right.
By "for free" I understand something akin to "base-kit", e.g. free BT, free unhook, …
The way I see it, this perk is very good for beginners and helps veterans. I'm not sure the help for veterans is that big. It would be interesting to make many measures of 1vs1 M1 chases with and without that perk, on many maps.
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But those are things you can do without the perk, too.
So it's not the perk doing it.
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Showing Pallets helps with SWF parity by allowing SoloQ to be informed on where a pallet could have been broken.
Though it does allow SWF to get pallet intel from the start of the match, and removes any need to communicate pallet status (other than god pallets some might try to navigate to).
As far as Window chaining: It’s still reliant on the survivor understanding how to loop those in the first place.
Were it ever to be nerfed I’d imagine it’d just be;
See the Aura of Vaults (including Dropped Pallets).
I’d want to add “Receive a noise notification when a pallet is broken”, to simulate a pallet break callout, but that’s basically Alert. But not a huge fan of two perk slots for that small bridge in information.
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You won't like the result, since the survivors are gonna get better and they're gonna do so with a different fourth perk that will become the new target of 'nerf now' complaints.
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old Perfect weapon just gave auras
old ruin just gave difficult skill checks
Weave Attunement - simply gives auras from items
That it0 -
it’s a poor attempt at a gotcha moment. This is also called a strawman argument, two side are arguing, so one side overinflated the other sides argument to an unrealistic degree so they can point at this and go “look at this super unrealistic reality I made up, obviously the opposing side wants this super unrealistic scenario, their argument sucks.” It’s just a lazy way to argue without actually having a rebuttal. We see this all the time in debates and it’s exhausting.
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I didn't realize how dependant survivors were of WOO until these temporary game modes started. Sure, I would see 4 WOO per game, but that doesn't mean they are dependant on it. But taking this perk off makes such BIG difference.
Every normal, survivors have the most optimal path and always know where to go. However, in a temporary mode without perks, I see that most survivors run around like headless chickens and often go for a deadzone. That's when I realized how impactful this perk is.
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There are currently 3 aura perks in the top 10 on nightlight (bbq, lethal, nth).
So saying that no aura perks are meta is simply not true.
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top picked ≠ meta
gen perks will be the only meta as long as generators are easy to complete
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Becauae they've nerfed the maps so much they are almost all deadzones. All these arguments about why woo is too necessary actually just show why it should be basekit.
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I mean the thing is killers complain so much when they already have a statistical advantage, and it makes it seem like winning most of the time isnt good enough, they want to win essentially all of the time. So its not as much of an exaggeration as you imply it is.
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By that same logic you could say that WoO is not a meta perk, just a top picked perk
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That's a Game issue, not a WoO issue. A survivor could do the exact same thing WITHOUT using Windows.
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If the devs are going to keep tiles in the game like jungle gyms without any windows or pallet gyms where the pallet can only be seen within 2 metres of its spawn location, I don't think they can afford to nerf the perk.
Not only that but the info that it provides is something SWF get for free, widening the gap between solos and SWF is NOT a good thing.
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I'd prefer to see WoO nerfed and a reversal of the deadzone map trend. In other words, a state where map sense and skill expression matter for both sides again..
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Yeah, maps now aren't packed with jungle gyms stacked on top of each other and actually require survivors to have a brain to know how to loop on them. Except if they have WoO ofc.
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Map sense doesnt help you at all to know which pallet is used or which not. And thats the part why WoO is used so much. Is it really that hard to understand?
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Good thing for you you dont need a brain to play killer.
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You could bring a perk like empathy, Kindred, bond, any means necessary, alert, or fogwise know where chases are taking place and which resources have likely been used. Or just pay attention to generally where your teammates chases are taking place.
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I seriously have no idea where the WoO hate comes from.
I play Killer frequently and can never point my finger and say that "WoO lost me the game" when in most cases Im just playing poorly or getting outplayed. My only surmise is that the WoO hate comes from a lack of understanding or inability to accept that you just lose sometimes.
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While I'm sure many of the people who have issues with WoO use it as an excuse like you surmised, it also can have somewhat profound effect when players use it correctly. Its an efficiency booster that also reduces the necessity/complexity of deductive reasoning. You can get almost all of its info without the perk, but you need to put in the extra work to see/plan/route your pathing when interacting with the killer. That increase in efficiency paired with the decrease in mental requirement is what I think most reasonable people have issues with. It gives tremendous value for a single perk slot, and its alternatives like Bond/Empathy/Kindred aren't even bad perks, WoO just outclasses them in almost every way.
Blaming it single-handedly for a loss is a bit hyperbolic, but people run it so much (both within its category and in general) because it is an exceedingly strong perk. For the record I'm not someone who wants the perk nerfed necessarily, but I do wish it was more in line with its alternatives both in terms of value and/or drawbacks.
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Yeah... they're not going back on current tends in map design.
Best case is they keep nerfing maps into shoebox sized dead zones, and survivors still have a functional perk to find the one pallet in their quadrant of the map.
Worst case, they "listen to" the unreasonable whining about this perk and nerf it into oblivion, while also making maps into tiny dead zones.
This are really the only two options I see moving forward, unless something drastic changes at BHVR regarding map design.
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Hence why I only briefly return to the game, grind the new rift, and leave. Can barely stand the current state of the game.
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Meh
So like WoO is a good perk I think the it's for beginners only argument is extremely silly. Knowing where the pallets and windows are to chain together is good information to have.
At the same time I don't think it's nerf worthy. To say that it is is to suggest optimal looping is uncounterable and if you're good at your killer and playing anyone B tier or above there's usually something you can do to throw the survivor off that pathing and get hits.
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Double posted for some reason
Post edited by Yggleif on0 -
if WOO isnt that good, why would you mind if it gets nerfed?
Why would I mind if neutral perk is nerfed because someone complained on forums about it?
Because it would be yet another precedent and community would see that it doesn't matter if perk is strong or not - if someone loudly complains about it, it's nerfed.
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I'm not using Woo in any of my builds and I've clearly wrote to you why it DOES matter that neutral perks aren't nerfed.
I would be angry if they nerf premonition for example, even though I am not using it at all.
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Maybe it should be considered that some players only get an hour in here and there over multiple weeks ... Not so simple to memorize all the maps in that situation
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Killers are getting such a large statistical advantage nowaday's that I wouldnt even doubt at this point if we start seeing large decreases in the amount of survivor mains, which mind you is majority of the game's playerbase by a large margin.
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Posts like this are hilarious given that Killers have so many aura reading perks at this point, they don't even have to actually look for Survs… not that they really need to anyway with all the crap map reworks. A killer sharting shows Surv aura's for 5 seconds, 10 seconds when they stand still to wipe the cheeto dust off their fingers, but yes, nerf WoO because it shows information on what window or pallet is around lmao
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