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Why do you people want WoO to get nerfed so badly??
I am not understanding that at all. I don’t think the perk is broken nor it is a problem at all. All it does is reveal locations of pallets and windows that’s it I’m not understanding the issue of why people hate the perk so bad. Plus in my personal opinion I don’t think it needs a nerf because every chapter update there’s a guarantee a new map so i don’t think it should be nerfed. Plus new players who need to learn the map and game should use WoO often. I am a killer main myself I main onryo and I don’t have a single issue with survivors running WoO. If your a killer main and if you have an issue then your just complaining for no reason. Plus killers have literally the same perk called zanshin tactics it literally does the same thing
Answers
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The only thing I kinda agree with is it takes away some form of luck from chaining loops.
That said, I don't agree it's OP either. Just overused at a higher level, and the argument that newer players need it is kinda disingenuous because I'm sure not everyone will have Kate unlocked to get it when they start anyway. I know I didn't. Sure it's useful to learn pallet spawn logic, but it's more often than not used that way.2 -
I don't think it's OP at all. If the maps become unbalanced when someone knows where resources are, it's a problem with the maps. If we're using RNG and luck as a prominent balancing mechanism, what are we doing?
Look at it this way: does WOO help someone in any way on Haddonfield? What about The Game? You probably said no the former and yes to the latter.
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I just started using it today on all my Survivors. It has taken the place of Distortion for me.
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I would just want good blidness perk (RIP UW) to counter it. It's funny how many survivors are just lost without it.
I have personally stopped using WoO when playing survivors and I enjoy my games so much more, when I can't just play on autopilot.4 -
In a two sided competitive game with different mechanics on each side there will always be somebody complaining about something. As most Survivor perks have very limited usefulness there isn't anything substantial to complain about so people complain about something that, if they had been complaining about it during other meta such as release CoH or MoM, etc, they would have gotten laughed at on the forums.
It's relative; not subjective and with most Survivor perks having such limited usefulness people now complain about WoO simply because it's better than the others.
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I dont want WoO nerfed, but it CAN become a crutch perk for you. But whether this matters at all is something they need to debate.
I have always seen WoO as a great equalizer between newbies and veterans or casuals and elites, I would make the argument that WoO is a glue that holds the game together, because the preferred playstyle of Survivor is to not run with an escape plan from every generator. Scouting is a somewhat dead in dbd strategy in dead by daylight and until that changes I see not need to even touch it.
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WOO centralises the meta and removes strategy from survivor, theres no reason to save resources with it
rn the game is just loop simulator, theres no point creating deadzones as killer or trying to not create them as surv
Post edited by coldflame on3 -
There are too many maps for the average player to keep up with. On top of this you have countless variants and countless RNG pallets. It gets worse every time they release a new map and it will only continue to get worse every year the game is in active development. Windows is highly used because it's basically required for a lot of people who can't dedicate thousands of hours to memorize every possible map layout that may or may not be in your next match.
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WoO is OP because it provides too much value for a single perk slot, especially when compared to its cousin aura perks. Overtuned would probably be more accurate than OP, but it is certainly too strong for its metadata and lack of downside. Personally I'd just like to see it more in line with the other survivor aura perks instead of being such a clear and obvious choice.
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Survivors also have to memorize the counters to 37 killers and all their addons that change how the power works. On top of the 61 maps, their RNG, and changes every update.
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I personally don't want it nerfed, but I've found when a weaker player is using it, the game gets a whole lot more boring without getting any harder because they follow a much more linear play style - linear as in making fewer decisions.
Even though I don't think it should be nerfed, I understand why someone might want to face fewer people playing the "I have windows" chase style
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All it does is reveal locations of pallets and windows
That can be quite strong if someone uses the information skillfully.
As killer, it's great when someone's not running WoO, and as they're running to the shack I can smile and say, "Sorry, your teammate already used that one."
killers have literally the same perk called zanshin tactics it literally does the same thing
Killers can't throw down pallets to stun or trap survivors, so while it literally does the same thing it doesn't actually have the same effect on the killer's gameplay.
I understand the arguments for wanting WoO nerfed. I don't think it should be nerfed, personally. As someone who plays in solo queue and used to equip WoO regularly, it was very helpful. I know the maps decently well if not quite well (not including recently updated ones), but the knowledge doesn't feel that helpful. I run to places where pallets can spawn but they either didn't thanks to RNG or they were already used by one of my random solo queue teammates and I had no idea. Given how awful solo queue can be, it is nice to have WoO to mitigate the damage done to the map by RNG and random teammates. So, I personally don't want to see WoO nerfed.
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When I started playing, I read lists of best perks and got Kate prestiged as soon as I learned what prestige meant.
Then later, I played a random perk challenge and found WoO was seriously hindering my looping abilities. In my first game without WoO, I looped better than I ever could with it. With WoO, I'd see a bright yellow pallet or window and think "that's my target, gotta get there." And that would pretty often send me holding W to a target I couldn't reach before I got hit.
Having said that, I think WoO is great for beginners to learn where pallets and windows are likely to be. On experienced players, WoO tells where your nearest resources are. You still have to be good at looping, and WoO gives you the ability to not run to a dead zone, or even to strategically pick good loops.
I'm definitely not at high MMR as survivor, but as killer I face survivors who are way better than I am as survivor. On those players, I really don't mind when they have windows :D
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Because people don't like the information it gives.
I think asking for a WOO nerf is silly and naive, and doesn't resolve any issues these people have. But to play devil's advocate, it is the most popular survivor perk at this moment and it gives the map knowledge of a studious veteran on comms to anyone who runs it, so they don't path to deadzones.
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If WoO has too much value for one slot then surely Bond will be on the chopping block next
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Bond, Empathy, and Kindred are all in line just under WoO. They can all glean similar metadata, but their core functions are not as strong, while they have drawbacks (requiring a shorter radius, requiring the teammate to be injured, and requiring a teammate (or self) to be on hook.)
Bond is already fine due to its short radius, so it wouldn't need any nerfs. Again, its just that WoO stands too far above its competition both in value and constant/average functionality.
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Going against a survivor who is obviously running it and just mindlessly running from pallet to vault to pallet to vault is simply boring to play against. Killers can play boring and survivors can too.
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it’s not OP at all there’s certain maps that people forget what’s there
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Value wise you get a lot of information on where to go and what pallets are available still or even where the person being chased is from a pallet drop. It also has no deactivation built in like on vault or pallet drop so you just get a lot of free valuable information for 1 perk slot.
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I know it used to have a cooldown of 20 seconds back in the day. I'm fine with the perk as is, though I wouldn't mind a shorter cooldown after a vault. Maybe 10 seconds?
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WoO is a wasted perk slot and asking for it to be nerfed is asking survivors to be forced to play with 4 perks instead of 3.
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Because when they lose they need something to blame. They see WoO frequently so they assume that's the reason they lose. It's the same with all the popular survivor perks complained about. The devs can nerf WoO but there will be a new complained about perk not long after.
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I agree with you that playing against shift W predrop can be boring on certain maps as lower tier killers.
A question for you then: Why is this Windows of Opportunity's fault?
If you nerf WoO, let's say even remove it from the game, the playstyle remains. Balance wise, nothing changes, only the playstyle becomes a bit harder to use (but not by much). Anyone with a decent amount of hours or good map knowledge can still do it. It's still just as strong.
A much better solution is more balanced maps (so not Gideon Meat Plant) and buffs for lower tiers. A windows nerf only helps if all of your opponents are so new that they don't know the map.
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The only bad thing about WOO, is the fact it creates auto-pilot survivors.
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The devs can nerf WoO but there will be a new complained about perk not long after.
This this this.
In fact, there's been enough of a trend of "complain means devs nerf it and move onto the next" the past couple years that some people now feel entitled to these nerfs when they complain. We saw it most with MFT, with people being genuinely outraged that their complaint wasn't getting the perk deleted fast enough.
Other perks in this trend over the past couple years: DS, DH (twice), reassurance, circle of healing, prove thyself, MFT, scavenger, background player, Buckle up. Which is only the perks. This doesn't even include map nerfs, weaker tiles, endurance stacking, medkits, BNP, anti-gen-tap, locker grab lightborn, AFC nerfs, light burn removal, and probably several more I can't think of.
Not to say that some of these changes weren't warranted, that's not my point. But the biggest issue is that people now feel entitled to an instant nerf the second they complain.
And a lot of those complaints aren't valid, WoO is the case study for this.
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people don't really want a nerf in literal meaning. People want this perk still to be very friendly for people learning tiles, but there are way too many people that actually play survivor a lot and still completely depend on this perk (even when they are in SWF)
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At least then they'd have to learn the maps instead of letting the yellow glow autopilot them from tile to tile.
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High usage rate. That's it.
People lose a match, get angry, go to nightlight to find something to blame and see WoO at the top. They assume if they get the perk nerfed they'll win all of the matches, the perk does get nerfed, they get a month of free wins as survivors find the next best thing to equip, then one of two things happen:
- Survivors do find a perk that gets them value and switch to it in droves. The cycle begins anew, switching WoO by whichever the next top rated perk is.
- Survivors don't find a perk that gets them value and kill rates spike. Killers get inevitably nerfed and they start complaining about the devs being survivor mains and the game being survivor sided when in reality the game went from 70% kill rate to 73% kill rate and back again to 70% kill rate after the nerf.
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I want to be able to recommend it to my newbie friends without the knowledge that it'll forever hinder them from actually growing and getting better at the game, preventing them ever getting to the point they don't need it. I also would like to use it for myself in a few specific builds without actively hindering my own ability to learn the game as well.
That's the reason I want it nerfed, WoO has a paradox in it's design currently. If its primary purpose is to help new players get better at the game, it doesn't succeed in doing that, it makes them lazier and more reliant on WoO just to function. You can't learn to ride a bike if you never take the training wheels off. It's value for more experienced players is limited more towards scouting the layout of tiles early, and having an early warning for what tiles have already been used when their chase starts.
A cooldown after a fast vault doesn't impede the experienced players usage of the perk, and retains it's niche. A cooldown also DOES actually help new players learn the game, because they actually have to remember the location of vaults they saw, and they naturally mentally map out tiles and structures as they play through necessity. They still get the benefit of the perk ensuring they are able to put up a fight to a degree, but are also actually learning tiles and building a fundamental skillset that then enhances their ability to play DBD without WoO rather than hindered from doing so.
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except for the fact that majority of people don't care about it's high usage rate.
I can't even explain how many times i had a teammate run into me repairing a gen while killer was chasing them simply because...they saw yellow aura of a pallet on this tile, both soloQ and SWF. This people turns your game sense off completely if you don't use it to learn tile placement, but instead as a crutch even after thousands of hours i the game. You won't care about where your teammates are, you will just run to the random nearest tile with yellow auras during chase.
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Overuse is a reason for a nerf. No perk should stay in the meta forever. WoO has been in there for long enough.
It's fine that it helps beginners but no perk should automate gameplay. If the cooldown came back, it would still do all the good things but you would actually need to pay some attention.
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Because after the Distortion nerf killers have to find another perk to complain about to justify their losses.
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don't you see anything strange with a perk that is supposed to be a training wheel actually being #1 perk by pickrate amongst survivors?
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It's not supposed to just be training wheels, though. It lets survivors know what pallets have been used by their teammates and which are still up, which is extremely useful in solo queue where your teammate might hose one whole side of the map (although personally I don't use windows, preferring to just wing it in whatever part of the map the killer finds me at). It has training wheel elements, but it has other uses too.
Honestly I think they should make Alert base kit, that way survivors don't need a perk to know what pallets got kicked, but they still have to remember where that happened
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Agreed because there should be no reason for them to complain and plus they are complaining because they are losing the game and they blame windows for their loss
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Your
Just because it is overuse does not mean it should get nerfed. I think your one of those people who get mad that you lost the game and blame a perk for your losses and wants it to get nerfed. That is like saying pain res should get nerfed because it is specific type of meta like no.
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I have to disagree. I been playing dead by daylight for 5 years now and I still do not remember certain parts of maps that well for example lery's. Windows do not need a nerf that is not the problem at all if you have a issue with windows it means you are complain about your losses when you play killer. Plus windows is a good information tool for everybody to use especially if a survivor is getting chased and if they use a certain pallet that has been broken by the killer other survivors need to know which pallets are available in their area while in chase. I think you of all people need to stop complaining and just play the game. Distortion was already nerfed in a way and now windows??
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Is that a problem tho?? Ever heard of Zanshin Tactics?? killers literally have the same perk. I think your one of those who play killer and complain that you lose matches because of a perk and you want it to get nerfed. Just say your trash at chasing survivors theres no reason for it to get nerfed. That is like saying pain res should get nerfed because it is a meta?? Like so what who cares
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Doesn't mean it should get nerfed
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if you have a issue with windows it means you are complain about your losses when you play killer
That is a very unfair assessment of both my argument and me. If you don't want to discuss/tackle the actual argument I made, that kinda suggests you don't actually have a counter point. It seems you have instead resorted to the tried and true social media strategy of discredit your opponent by any means necessary, and resorted to straw-manning me as an entitled killer main who wants free wins.
My opinion of WoO from a killer's perspective is summaried quite succintly here:
It may interest you to know I actually play about 60% Survivor now and 40% killer, my disdain for WoO comes from the fact the perk works like driving a car with a satnav. I can drive the same route for a year with a satnav and still not know how to get to my destination without it. I can do the same trip having to pre-plan the route with an actual map and try to follow said route, and learn it in 2 trips.
For this same reason, I cannot use WoO, it actively inhibits my ability to learn and makes me bad at the game, and is why I won't recommend it to any other new players who start as well. You've been playing 5 years… great, a lot of veteran players will talk about WoO like it is great/necessary for new players to learn. Well I've been playing for 1 year and 8 months, I actually am someone who has gone through learning the ridiculous iceberg that is modern DBD as a newer player, and I am telling you, this perk hinders your ability to learn, it doesn't help it.
If you have an actual point to discuss I will happily listen and debate it. However if you're jsut gonna try and claim I'm wrong by hurling unfounded accusations at me, I would ask you to please do better.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
remember when old dead hard was a thing. That perk used to get so many complaints and rightfully so. However people brought up the fact that once that perk got nerfed killer players would move on to the next perk to complain about. Lithe, a perk that was never ever complained about before, now is one of the perks that they complain about. Same with windows no one was complaining about this perk until like a couple of months ago. The devs have been nerfing maps lately and yet they still want windows nerfed. This community is a joke
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The problem is not losing but that I can close my eyes because I already how the next 40 seconds will play out. WoO is used to make chases as uninteractive as possible.
If the cooldown came back, you would need to put some effort into it and maybe even play around a structure for once.
Pain Res was nerfed already, so that's really not the best example you could have made. Not to mention you actually have to do something for Pain Res to activate.
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Funny. If high usage doesn't mean it's good and provides great value, why do people even bring it?
Fun fact: BHVR stated that the reason for nerfing all slowdown perks was because of high usage.
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The last time they nerfed anything based on "usage rates" was 6.1.0 when they torched most of the meta perks.
All of the balance since then has been around kill rates, and most regression got nerfed because it was so overpowered killers were holding games hostage indefinitely with it.
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Ever heard of Zanshin Tactics?? killers literally have the same perk
And it was worthless on them because vaults and pallets mean more to survivors than they do to killers. No one cared about Zanshin Tactics until it got buffed.
I think your one of those who play killer and complain that you lose matches because of a perk and you want it to get nerfed.
Wrong.
Just say your trash at chasing survivors theres no reason for it to get nerfed.
Resorting to petty insults like a little kid.
That is like saying pain res should get nerfed because it is a meta??
Pain Res is also boring.
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And once they do learn the maps?
Would you say to yourself after seeing survivors predrop pallets "oh well, at least they learned where the set pallet spawns are or can recognize a jungle gym, I no longer have any complaints"? Would you go against a full slowdown midwich nurse and say "well she's not using aura so this is completely fine"?
Be real with yourself.
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The average survivor is bad at the game and this perk highlights the most important resources needed for the most skilled part of gameplay (the chase), not that weird to me.
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Survivors running tiles based on their knowledge and awareness is more fun to play against than pallet autopilots.
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Survivors that run tiles aren't predropping or doing brainless hold W to yellow, which is the issue yes?
I agree that actually playing tiles is more fun than running to the pallet and dropping it. My question is why you think this is something that would go away without Windows.The proper way to encourage survivors to play tiles isn't to try and prevent them from knowing what resources are nearby - that isn't viable with knowledgeable players anyway. It's proper map and killer balance.
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