Why do tiles and jungle jims are so hard when it comes to M1 killers chasing survivors
I am a onryo main and I always have to hit and run which is pretty annoying considering some of the areas of the maps I face their are certain tiles that are too large where it’s impossible to catch survivors considering they are really good at doubling back and fake window vaulting it’s pretty frustrating for me and also some of the jungle jims are pretty hard to chase survivors as well. I just wish they give something for weaker M1 killers in certain chases that are impossible to catch survivors.
Answers
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Bot to sound rude or anything but it's not impossible for M1 killers to catch survivors at a jungle gym.
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Well, thats the basic gameplay since the beginning of the game.
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You weren’t being rude at all. In my experience I just been having trouble chasing survivors at huge jungle jims that survivors play mind games on. As i mentioned the doubling back and fake window fault. I have to sometimes hit and run due to checking on gens
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Most jungle gyms have an ideal way to chase the survivor to make it easier for the killer. As an example, cow tree on the farm. If you chase the survivor clockwise, they get easy access to the vault every loop. But if you run it counter clockwise they lose distance and have to either take a slow vault or take the turn really wide to try and fast vault it.
The chase direction is determined entirely by the killer, so you have control of that direction.
It may benefit you to look up a general looping guide on YouTube because most, if not all, jungle gyms have a "correct way" to run the tile to make the chase easier for the killer. Similarly there's also a "wrong way" that will make it easier for the survivor, so you should know how to zone to force the chase the direction you want/need for that tile.
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As an m1 main myself, there are certain tiles, that I consider unfair for m1 killers.
These tiles often include one specific feature. A check spot.
If the tile is long enough, the survivor will always be able to make it to the pallet or window if their rection time is good enough. The most egregious example being long tiles on coldwind and McMillan and obviously the shack itself.
Sadako however doesn't struggle as hard at tiles like these because she can play around check spots to a certain degree. 90% of the time I spend with her during a trial, I am demanifested. I only manifest if I'm certain to get a hit. This helps a lot at longer and more complex tiles like jungle gyms.
A killer like Ghosty does not have this kind of courtesy.
Other killers like Pig and Freddy are relatively small and quiet, giving them an advantage on certain tiles. This however does not help at all at tiles like shack, where the idea with these killers is generally: force and break the pallet.
It sucks, but that's how it is and has always been.
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The survivor would have to make 3 mistakes back to back first.
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it is if the survivor is good.
i think the problem with checkspot's is that m1 killer have no lunge reach. your just out of range that survivor can on reaction run a little bit and hit the vault before your able to press m1 to hit them. shack is perfect example where window has checkspot with red glow that the survivor can react on. the worst part is that even if you hide red glow, the survivor can leave loops or go around long way to ignore any potencial to get hit. Jungle gym are much of the same. for shack, it is god pallet where the survivor has near infinity reaction time and then jungle gym has checkspot on pallet in which they can slide on reaction.
without considering windows in the game, lots of pallets are long enough that there is specific checkspot that survivor can camp the pallet and slide on reaction to your lunge m1. it is big pitfall of every m1 killer.
I disagree that Sadako's invisibility is adequate to combat/prevent reaction vaulting and window vault. I can get behind condemn being significant worse to the point of ineffective a competent team but at same time, you would think that BVHR would at the very least make her invisibility into competent chase tool that barebones enables 50/50's.
With pig ambush dash, her ambush is at cusk of almost enabling 50/50's. i think 3 things that prevent pig from enabling 50/50's on the ultra safe tiles is:
- too slow crouch movement speed. the whole uncrouch and re-crouch is somewhat tedious in chase. it would be better if pig was 4.4 m/s in crouch so there isn't an added 1 second extra charge time to ambush dashing
- speaking of charge time, workshop grease should be base-kit for pig. the add-on should be reworked to grant 30% unrelenting and 30% stbfl stacks.
- increasing pig's movement in dash by around 25% total.
those would be my dream changes for pig. Pig could for real be a m2 only killer with few significant buffs. right now i think you need to work a lot harder as pig to be m2 only killer than what should be expected for killer. the ability has use but i feel like the ability should always be useful rather than selectively useful.
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everytime you think that people got the basics of the game finally down, you read a comment like this and its back to the start. In the past ranks were used to decern matchmaking, ranging from rank 20 (Ash) all the way to rank 1 (Iri). Since 2021 (!) though, ranks have been replaced by grades, ranging from Ash 4 to Iri 1, and their singular purpose is to see you climb through the grades during the month and to get up to 2 million BP at the 13th. NO, I repeat, NO matchmaking mechanic is tied in any way, shape or form to the current grades, you will be matches with exactly the same players, no matter if you are Ash 4, Gold 2 or Iri 1.
And while many factors play into the DBD match making system, like your own performance, region and time of the day, from my personal POV, killer ain't as easy and braindead and simple and "game plays itself for you", as many paint it here. If anyone is interested, I can gladly stream a couple of my sessions on Twitch for anyone to see. Sure, the game sometimes matches me with potatoes that are way below my paygrade, but most of the time I have to sweat my behind off like there is no tomorrow.
And we are not discussing just any nerfs, we are discussing how some tiles are a bit unfair for some killers, ie the so called M1 killers, who have littel to no chase power and option to catch a survivor IF the survivor plays the tile perfectly. I guess most survivor players aren't at this level and can't fathom this, but many killers regularly face survivors who are neigh uncatchable, because they got thousands of hours below their belt and they just run in perfect circles and a killer can only hope to bloodlust them, which is already basically throwing the game.
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You are just projecting, mate. The 100% comment alone robs you of any credibility and will not get you taken seriously in any capacity. Try to be a bit more moderate and constructive.
Yeah, jungle gyms are a basic part of the game, many parts are. And after 8 years and thousands of hours, some players have reached the extreme limits of whats possible. One maxime of the game is, that eventually any survivor should go down, thats why we have systems like bloodlust, and 5 gen chases shouldn't actually be possible, if both parties are at their a-game. But some players still manage to do so routinely, because they can run the tiles 100% perfect, giving the killer no option to catch up. And this players are not THAT rare that they could be counted on one hand.
The best counter is to just ignore such players, because most often they lack the discipline to jump on a gen, because they actually WANT to be chased, but thats not the point, the point is that in the hand of some portion of the player base jungle gyms are neigh infinites and thats what we are talking about.
We are not talking about "nerfing survivors till killers get a 100% kill rate", we are talking about killers like Myers or Trapper, who have in certain situations 0% to get the survivor, and if that is fair? Skill issue from the survivors is taken account for - they can run the killer for 5 gens by running this tiles perfectly and by waiting at checkpoints, but often the killers skill is not taken into account - they can try to reverse the loop, mind game, moonwalk, but some tiles have such good checkpoints, that no matter the killers skill, they won't get the survivor.
Is this how a fair DBD match should work? Is this something thats worth discussing about? Or should we handwave this away, because "killers oppinion on that don't matter, because they only want 100% kill rates!!!1"?
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How did we get to pigs ambush and sadako's condemned?
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Sadako however doesn't struggle as hard at tiles like these because she can play around check spots to a certain degree. 90% of the time I spend with her during a trial,
Other killers like Pig and Freddy are relatively small and quiet, giving them an advantage on certain tiles.
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Think of this game as a power role fantasy simulator.
There is literally zero reason to spend your time playing solo survivor.
Play killer or play a game that rewards your time properly imo.
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Jungle gyms are surprisingly unsafe especially if you have a way to go undetectable.
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True. Dedicated builds like Spirit Fury + Enduring can lead to hits and Bamboozle can help get the pallet out of the way relatively quick.
But overall, it is pretty much impossible to mind game a jungle gym. There are so many check spots and save points a survivor can use that it's more effective to brute force your way through than even attempting a mind game. That only costs extra time.
Jungle gyms are not quite on the same level as the shack (which literally tells you where to wait!) but they realistically offer safety until the pallet is gone and even then can be used for some extra time. Not to mention we have some even stronger versions of jungle gyms on Garden of Misery, that pretty much eliminate any possibility at all to mess up as a survivor.
I think it's fine that some structures as safe as jungle gyms exist but every map needs rules to how many of these can spawn (thankfully most maps have very strict rules already).
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Its almost like they don't have a mechanic for that. Oh wait bloodlust. If you cant out chase ang jungle gym on BL2 its more of a skill issue. You'll have BL before entering it with maps now and tier 2 is shortly after.
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i did not mention condemned or the ambush. This was solely about the m1 gameplay.
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you talk about her invisibility as being sufficient for checkspot and short height…. for pig when pig is so slow in crouch that it is easier to loop then 4.4 m/s hag.
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It takes about 10 hours to find out how to play around a jungly gym. Brute force or not at all. That's the way to go for M1 killers. A survivor can literally wait on multiple spots until they see the killer again. No mind game will put them in danger because all they need to do is wait and react.
At that point, your skill as a killer doesn't matter anymore because you don't have any skill expression to begin with. Against some of the stronger killers in this game a jungle gym is not 100% safe but we're talking about M1 killers here. They are fairly predictable and that's what makes these tiles so strong. There are only so many directions a killer can come from and if you use the check spots correctly, which even average survivors manage to do just fine, a jungle gym becomes completely safe.
Whether or not jungle gyms should be nerfed is a different story. I think they have their place in the game mainly because we have a lot of killers who have at least some options to play around them but M1 killers will need some help either in the form of better chase abilities or more strength overall to open up perk slots to deal with these tiles.
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No. Pig is a small and silent killer when playing m1. I did not mention her crouching at all. These are small little tricks you can learn with m1 killers. some are better than others. Freddy and Pig being probably the best m1´s out these.
I did not say, that invisibility is suffiecient for check spots. What I said is, that shhe has "something" to help her in certain situations, where other killers dont have it. Is invisibility enough to outplay something like shack? No. Absolutely not, if the survivor is decent. Thats why I play poking - simulator - sadako. I chase when i know I can get a hit.
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i think invisibility is too short to be of any use. i'd say for size, go for chucky or dracula wolf form. i think short height works vs inexperienced survivors but doesn't work vs experienced loopers. at least i have seen chucky and wolf form dracula try to confuse me with their height but i didn't look too effective from my personal experience going vs it as survivor.
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Some times you have to brute force a pallet break, no point in mindgaming certain tiles. If the loop is long on both sides or has a window as well, it's best to just force a pallet drop and break it.
Doesn't mean that you can't try it, but a good Survivor will be uncatchable on strong tiles if the pallet is down and not broken.
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I think people are ignoring some things about these tiles: one there are builds and specific perks that you can use to make these tiles easier when mindgaming can't, that's kind of the whole point of perks, two there are also tiles that are extremely killer sided that usually result in 50/50s and in frequency as someone else in this forum said, these "unfair tiles" you're talking about are much less than the less safer ones. I think it's necessary to have at least a couple of good loops, definitely not all, in a map to give the survivors a chance instead of loops coming down to luck. And if all else fails when looping on a tile: just leave the survivor and get better at zoning to get them to a less safe loop. Most of these issues can be solved with your own initiative you just need to consider all of the possibilities.
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Dude, chill. Here is one truth about DBD: there are a LOT of survivor mains who only play survivors and basically never touched killer. My friend with whom I regularly roam the fog has 2.5k hours, but she still hasn't gotten the "sacrifice 100 survivors" achievment.
And while killer mains exist that ONLY play killer, this players are far, far more rare. Most killer mains play a pretty fair share of survivors, too, and be it just to learn about the way survivors think and where they might hide etc.
I am what you would call a killer main, but I play about a 70/30 split, at times even 60/40, just for the fact that you can't play your killer with your friends, unless you play "kill your friends" which we sometimes do, but most of the time we play the game in the wild.
I have completed every single tome challenge and every single achievment in the game, some of the survivor ones were pretty rough and tough, and I surly wouldn't have managed so as a complete casual. And while I mostly play in a duo or trio SWF, yeah, I occasionally play soloQ, especially when I want to just finish a couple of the event tomes. I feel you, soloQ can be rough at times and it feels so frustrating when you slip into second hook stage, just because no one deemed it necessary to move their behind from their gens, even though it would have been just a quick strol over here, but you can't change that.
And a potential discussion about jungle gyms and how M1 killers (not) interact with them won't change anything in this regard. As @Xernoton already said, they have their place in the game, but for M1 killers they are a truly uninteractive wall and roadblock, and discussing some ideas about them isn't "idiotic statement" that just fell off the sky, but born from our experience. Your voice will be taken into account, just as everyone elses, but try to be a little bit level-headed yourself and don't call people names or demean their experiences - just as you want your own to be taken serious.
And the 50/50 split has been talked to death, here. Other people can explain that better to you, but in the tl,dr a 50/50 split favors the survivors in a way that they lose all respect from the killer, we had that in the past and DBD was objectively worse then.
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Chucky and wolf are not pure m1 killers. Im talking about pure m1. That being 4.6 no power.
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Survivors are not allowed to be good
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Not saying they aren’t but I’m saying they need to do something for M1 killers to have that chance to catch them it’s almost impossible if the survivor is really good at looping at tiles and jungle jims
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The problem is that the killer doesn't have that many perk slots. It's exactly 4. Weaker killers don't need other perks than stronger killers, they need additional ones. Meaning, a stronger killer will get to play with a good build and deal with such strong loops, while a M1 killer will can either play with such a strong build or deal with those loops. They can't do both. This doesn't mean that a M1 killer can't win but that they are at a significant disadvantage.
I agree that good loops are necessary to deal with killers that already have powerful chase abilities. I just wish that M1 killers didn't always get the short end of the stick. On top of being reliant on certain perks more than other killers, they are also expected to equip additional perks for something that stronger killers can deal with either way.
Also, I'm not sure that there are more unsafe than safe loops. Most main buildings (even the ones that aren't as powerful) are safe, TL walls, if played correctly are damn strong, jungle gyms are safe, all shacks are safe, variant gyms are about 50/50 between safe and unsafe, all filler loops on Eyrie of Crows are safe (literally all of them have check spots), all filler loops on GoJ are safe and connected to other strong loops, most loops on the McMillan maps are safe, the same goes for Autohaven Wreckers, all loops on The Game are ungodly safe (there is exactly one pallet, that is weak and even that can become strong if you chain it)... I could go on but you get the idea. Survivors have LOTS of strong loops.
The issue is, that on some maps you have tons of those and on others you have 2 good loops and 4 useless loops (Haddonfield comes to mind). Ironically the maps with good loops usually have large amounts of resources while those with terrible loops have very few.
M1 killers are typically quite bad at zoning too by virtue of being M1 killers. If they don't have a power to support them in chase, they have no way to zone a survivor, if the loop they are on isn't useless already. In which case, why would you zone them? On a jungle gym a M1 killer in general has no way to zone. As long as you have some distance or a wall between you and the killer, they are no threat to you (other than Doctor, whom I wouldn't consider weak against jungle gyms either way), so you don't need to leave a loop and there is nothing they can do about it. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Come from 2 directions at once? If you aren't playing Dredge or Twins, this isn't possible and those 2 have little trouble dealing with jungle gyms.
Leaving is also something that works in theory but typically not for M1 killers. Most of them have one thing in common. They don't have great mobility, so if they leave a survivor, it will take a while for them to actually get to another. And what is to stop them from running to the same safe set up, that you just came from? You can of course try to cut them off but most survivors run exhaustion perks that allow them to get extra distance which they can use to run around you. And if that doesn't work, then they still have the opportunity to use the speed boost after a hit to get there. Are you going to leave them again? Sure, you got them away from a gen and they will need to heal, so you have slowed down the game but you haven't actually progressed. Meaning, you are still in a worse spot than you were before. The next problem is that you also don't get to use your slowdown perks, if you don't progress. This is a downwards spiral.
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I have an easy solution for the jungle gyms myself: I don't play these powerless M1 killers. Easy.
It doesn't mean nothing should be done. If not a change making the jungle gyms more fair to these weak killers, then maybe then some base buff applied to them would do the trick.
Note that reducing the strength of jungle gyms wouldn't be that bad IMHO. I'm not very good at looping (I'm a Blendette at heart) so I would get caught maybe one or two seconds earlier: big deal. Most survivors aren't experts and would minimally be affected. And that's assuming the killer is good BTW.
The 60% rate has been decided for very good and tried reasons.
If I recall, at some point it was aimed to 50% and survivors could not find killers to be matched against anymore. Fun times.
Sure, plenty. Care to share a few of these perks making looping impossible for the class?
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Vaults block with 3 vaults. They block with 1 vault after its unblocked, and theres also bloodlust
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I think it's important to remember that this is a party game. Sure it gets stressful for either sides, but there is little you can do against an opponent that knows what they are doing. And to help M1 Killers, it's not impossible to basekit catch a Survivor thanks to the Entity block mechanic and Bloodlust mechanic, although it will waste a lot of time. The Perks you can run to assist you include Bamboozle, Hex: Blood Favor and Crowd Control, Superior Anatomy, Spirit Fury, Enduring, Play With Your Food, Save The Best For Last, and Rapid Brutality. You got to know what perks will work best with your chosen Killer, and the perks I listed aren't so useful for Killers with anti-loop. If you lose as Survivor or Killer, you weren't bad, you were just unlucky and lost a 50/50 which means you lost the game.
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Cool writeup, but TL walls on their own are not strong at all, they are probably slightly killer sided. On their own, you rely on mindgames or suboptimal play from your opponent to make more than 1 vault without getting hit (against M1 killers). Even checkspots are 50/50s on this tile.
They are strong if and only if they have another tile or resource nearby you can chain to, or if you have Lithe to use them to move somewhere else.
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Oh, believe me. I'd rather chase an insane survivor around the shack or a jungle gym than a TL wall. If you haven't seen what some survivors can do with these, you're really missing out.
Luckily very few survivors are actually on that level.
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The thing about TL walls is that as an M1 killer you have counterplay. Again, assuming no exhaustion or tile chaining it only takes 1 vault before you are in a position to mindgame. An insane survivor can get guaranteed no counterplay value at low ping on shack/gyms with checkspots, there are no safe checkspots on TL walls. I'd much rather chase someone there where I have opportunities to cut the chase short.
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And of course if the survivor is way better than me and wins mindgames, they can force that window to block too but then they need another tile, there is no pallet to fall back on.
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Leaving is also something that works in theory but typically not for M1 killers. Most of them have one thing in common. They don't have great mobility, so if they leave a survivor, it will take a while for them to actually get to another.
Funnily enough, I think this is where Freddy is the exception.
Knowing when to drop chase has always been an extremely important skill for Freddy mains, which they absolutely had to learn. First it was because of the map control playstyle, now it is because you have to drop some chases or you will lose the game.
And thankfully your power allows you to get away. If not with the old Dream World slowdown + aura reading, then with the current teleport.
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True. I consider TL walls to be fair because both sides have lots of skill expression and chances to mind game. A really cracked survivor however will still take forever to hit and you will have at least one window blocked before that. At a certain point, your plays as a killer lose meaning because no matter what you do, it will not result in a better outcome anyway.
The reason I can accept that for TL walls is because it's incredibly hard while other tiles have the aforementioned check spots that allow you to react to whatever the killer does. That's not that hard and the main reason you can still hit some survivors around these is that they either have no clue about that or they are so overconfident that they don't properly adjust to what you do.
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I do have to ask, what loops to killer mains consider fair?
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You can in fact mindgame most survivors you encounter on most of any tile. Even in chases between very experienced and skilled players (such as on the DbD League 1v1 ladder) gyms get mindgamed, and most pub random survivors will be fairly easily outplayed even at these safe tiles. I can give you pointers if you want any.
Here are a few fundamental ones to start you off (edit: I think I should point out that the lines pointing away from "you" are supposed to signify your red stain/the direction you are facing towards, not torso and arms 😅):
On the short-wall gym, hide your red light here when rounding the pallet after the survivor has dropped or vaulted it. The survivor now does not know whether you have doubled-back and are cutting through or behind the gym, and most pub randoms will hesitate, allowing you to quickly round the corner and potentially get them. You can also stand still in that position for a few seconds, leading many survivors to panic and run back into you when you finally round the corner. Alternatively, you can obviously actually then cut through or behind the gym, to catch the survivor holding the spot at the window, hiding your red light like so:
To attempt to mindgame the window, hide your red light here:
Now the survivor again does not know whether you are cutting through or in front of the gym and will hesitate or panic. Round the corner with some delay, or actually cut through or in front of the gym, while hiding your red light:
Long-wall gyms are a little more complex so I will spare you further silly sketches.
Most killer abilities also make it very interactive to play around these safer tiles, whereas less safe tiles tend to be rather linear and boring against these chase abilities, and either lead to more or less guaranteed hits eventually, or 50/50s at best, at least if the survivor player isn't much better than the kiler player.
For killers that do not have potent chase abilities, the optimal play (if you want to win as reliably as possible that is - if you want to have more fun and engaging gameplay mindgaming is always cooler) on these safer tiles against competent survivors regularly simply is to force the pallet use and then break it. Breaking pallets is a completely sensible game action and part of the basic gameplay loop, not every tile has to reliably be outplayable. It's not a loss to break a pallet, the best killer players break pallets and win games against the best survivor players. You would also be well-advised to use perks like Bamboozle and Brutal Strength on those killers, brute-forcing these tiles without needing to get good at mindgaming or risking the survivor out-mindgaming you, and still not losing a lot of time in the process.
Basic logic on how to chase in these tiles to most efficiently force the window block/pallet drop can easily be found around the web, with YouTube videos obviously being a very easy-to-follow source. But I'll point you here, simply because I copied the gym sketch from there: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/d6q8im/quick_rundown_of_how_to_run_some_generic_tiles.
Post edited by zarr on1
