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Why do tiles and jungle jims are so hard when it comes to M1 killers chasing survivors

theonryo123
theonryo123 Member Posts: 93
edited October 25 in General Discussions

I am a onryo main and I always have to hit and run which is pretty annoying considering some of the areas of the maps I face their are certain tiles that are too large where it’s impossible to catch survivors considering they are really good at doubling back and fake window vaulting it’s pretty frustrating for me and also some of the jungle jims are pretty hard to chase survivors as well. I just wish they give something for weaker M1 killers in certain chases that are impossible to catch survivors.

Answers

  • BurnedTerrormisu
    BurnedTerrormisu Member Posts: 165

    Well, thats the basic gameplay since the beginning of the game.

  • theonryo123
    theonryo123 Member Posts: 93

    You weren’t being rude at all. In my experience I just been having trouble chasing survivors at huge jungle jims that survivors play mind games on. As i mentioned the doubling back and fake window fault. I have to sometimes hit and run due to checking on gens

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,756

    it is if the survivor is good.

    i think the problem with checkspot's is that m1 killer have no lunge reach. your just out of range that survivor can on reaction run a little bit and hit the vault before your able to press m1 to hit them. shack is perfect example where window has checkspot with red glow that the survivor can react on. the worst part is that even if you hide red glow, the survivor can leave loops or go around long way to ignore any potencial to get hit. Jungle gym are much of the same. for shack, it is god pallet where the survivor has near infinity reaction time and then jungle gym has checkspot on pallet in which they can slide on reaction.

    without considering windows in the game, lots of pallets are long enough that there is specific checkspot that survivor can camp the pallet and slide on reaction to your lunge m1. it is big pitfall of every m1 killer.

    I disagree that Sadako's invisibility is adequate to combat/prevent reaction vaulting and window vault. I can get behind condemn being significant worse to the point of ineffective a competent team but at same time, you would think that BVHR would at the very least make her invisibility into competent chase tool that barebones enables 50/50's.

    With pig ambush dash, her ambush is at cusk of almost enabling 50/50's. i think 3 things that prevent pig from enabling 50/50's on the ultra safe tiles is:

    1. too slow crouch movement speed. the whole uncrouch and re-crouch is somewhat tedious in chase. it would be better if pig was 4.4 m/s in crouch so there isn't an added 1 second extra charge time to ambush dashing
    2. speaking of charge time, workshop grease should be base-kit for pig. the add-on should be reworked to grant 30% unrelenting and 30% stbfl stacks.
    3. increasing pig's movement in dash by around 25% total.

    those would be my dream changes for pig. Pig could for real be a m2 only killer with few significant buffs. right now i think you need to work a lot harder as pig to be m2 only killer than what should be expected for killer. the ability has use but i feel like the ability should always be useful rather than selectively useful.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,449

    everytime you think that people got the basics of the game finally down, you read a comment like this and its back to the start. In the past ranks were used to decern matchmaking, ranging from rank 20 (Ash) all the way to rank 1 (Iri). Since 2021 (!) though, ranks have been replaced by grades, ranging from Ash 4 to Iri 1, and their singular purpose is to see you climb through the grades during the month and to get up to 2 million BP at the 13th. NO, I repeat, NO matchmaking mechanic is tied in any way, shape or form to the current grades, you will be matches with exactly the same players, no matter if you are Ash 4, Gold 2 or Iri 1.

    And while many factors play into the DBD match making system, like your own performance, region and time of the day, from my personal POV, killer ain't as easy and braindead and simple and "game plays itself for you", as many paint it here. If anyone is interested, I can gladly stream a couple of my sessions on Twitch for anyone to see. Sure, the game sometimes matches me with potatoes that are way below my paygrade, but most of the time I have to sweat my behind off like there is no tomorrow.

    And we are not discussing just any nerfs, we are discussing how some tiles are a bit unfair for some killers, ie the so called M1 killers, who have littel to no chase power and option to catch a survivor IF the survivor plays the tile perfectly. I guess most survivor players aren't at this level and can't fathom this, but many killers regularly face survivors who are neigh uncatchable, because they got thousands of hours below their belt and they just run in perfect circles and a killer can only hope to bloodlust them, which is already basically throwing the game.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,196
  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,756

    Sadako however doesn't struggle as hard at tiles like these because she can play around check spots to a certain degree. 90% of the time I spend with her during a trial,

    Other killers like Pig and Freddy are relatively small and quiet, giving them an advantage on certain tiles.

  • Ilikechips
    Ilikechips Member Posts: 164

    Think of this game as a power role fantasy simulator.

    There is literally zero reason to spend your time playing solo survivor.

    Play killer or play a game that rewards your time properly imo.

  • alpha5
    alpha5 Member Posts: 362

    Jungle gyms are surprisingly unsafe especially if you have a way to go undetectable.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,824

    True. Dedicated builds like Spirit Fury + Enduring can lead to hits and Bamboozle can help get the pallet out of the way relatively quick.

    But overall, it is pretty much impossible to mind game a jungle gym. There are so many check spots and save points a survivor can use that it's more effective to brute force your way through than even attempting a mind game. That only costs extra time.

    Jungle gyms are not quite on the same level as the shack (which literally tells you where to wait!) but they realistically offer safety until the pallet is gone and even then can be used for some extra time. Not to mention we have some even stronger versions of jungle gyms on Garden of Misery, that pretty much eliminate any possibility at all to mess up as a survivor.

    I think it's fine that some structures as safe as jungle gyms exist but every map needs rules to how many of these can spawn (thankfully most maps have very strict rules already).

  • Autharia
    Autharia Member Posts: 318

    Its almost like they don't have a mechanic for that. Oh wait bloodlust. If you cant out chase ang jungle gym on BL2 its more of a skill issue. You'll have BL before entering it with maps now and tier 2 is shortly after.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,196

    i did not mention condemned or the ambush. This was solely about the m1 gameplay.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,756

    you talk about her invisibility as being sufficient for checkspot and short height…. for pig when pig is so slow in crouch that it is easier to loop then 4.4 m/s hag.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,196

    No. Pig is a small and silent killer when playing m1. I did not mention her crouching at all. These are small little tricks you can learn with m1 killers. some are better than others. Freddy and Pig being probably the best m1´s out these.

    I did not say, that invisibility is suffiecient for check spots. What I said is, that shhe has "something" to help her in certain situations, where other killers dont have it. Is invisibility enough to outplay something like shack? No. Absolutely not, if the survivor is decent. Thats why I play poking - simulator - sadako. I chase when i know I can get a hit.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,756

    i think invisibility is too short to be of any use. i'd say for size, go for chucky or dracula wolf form. i think short height works vs inexperienced survivors but doesn't work vs experienced loopers. at least i have seen chucky and wolf form dracula try to confuse me with their height but i didn't look too effective from my personal experience going vs it as survivor.

  • MrDardon
    MrDardon Member Posts: 4,033

    Some times you have to brute force a pallet break, no point in mindgaming certain tiles. If the loop is long on both sides or has a window as well, it's best to just force a pallet drop and break it.

    Doesn't mean that you can't try it, but a good Survivor will be uncatchable on strong tiles if the pallet is down and not broken.

  • Junk209905
    Junk209905 Member Posts: 1
    edited October 26

    I think people are ignoring some things about these tiles: one there are builds and specific perks that you can use to make these tiles easier when mindgaming can't, that's kind of the whole point of perks, two there are also tiles that are extremely killer sided that usually result in 50/50s and in frequency as someone else in this forum said, these "unfair tiles" you're talking about are much less than the less safer ones. I think it's necessary to have at least a couple of good loops, definitely not all, in a map to give the survivors a chance instead of loops coming down to luck. And if all else fails when looping on a tile: just leave the survivor and get better at zoning to get them to a less safe loop. Most of these issues can be solved with your own initiative you just need to consider all of the possibilities.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,196

    Chucky and wolf are not pure m1 killers. Im talking about pure m1. That being 4.6 no power.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,135

    Survivors are not allowed to be good

  • theonryo123
    theonryo123 Member Posts: 93

    Not saying they aren’t but I’m saying they need to do something for M1 killers to have that chance to catch them it’s almost impossible if the survivor is really good at looping at tiles and jungle jims

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,824

    The problem is that the killer doesn't have that many perk slots. It's exactly 4. Weaker killers don't need other perks than stronger killers, they need additional ones. Meaning, a stronger killer will get to play with a good build and deal with such strong loops, while a M1 killer will can either play with such a strong build or deal with those loops. They can't do both. This doesn't mean that a M1 killer can't win but that they are at a significant disadvantage.

    I agree that good loops are necessary to deal with killers that already have powerful chase abilities. I just wish that M1 killers didn't always get the short end of the stick. On top of being reliant on certain perks more than other killers, they are also expected to equip additional perks for something that stronger killers can deal with either way.

    Also, I'm not sure that there are more unsafe than safe loops. Most main buildings (even the ones that aren't as powerful) are safe, TL walls, if played correctly are damn strong, jungle gyms are safe, all shacks are safe, variant gyms are about 50/50 between safe and unsafe, all filler loops on Eyrie of Crows are safe (literally all of them have check spots), all filler loops on GoJ are safe and connected to other strong loops, most loops on the McMillan maps are safe, the same goes for Autohaven Wreckers, all loops on The Game are ungodly safe (there is exactly one pallet, that is weak and even that can become strong if you chain it)... I could go on but you get the idea. Survivors have LOTS of strong loops.

    The issue is, that on some maps you have tons of those and on others you have 2 good loops and 4 useless loops (Haddonfield comes to mind). Ironically the maps with good loops usually have large amounts of resources while those with terrible loops have very few.

    M1 killers are typically quite bad at zoning too by virtue of being M1 killers. If they don't have a power to support them in chase, they have no way to zone a survivor, if the loop they are on isn't useless already. In which case, why would you zone them? On a jungle gym a M1 killer in general has no way to zone. As long as you have some distance or a wall between you and the killer, they are no threat to you (other than Doctor, whom I wouldn't consider weak against jungle gyms either way), so you don't need to leave a loop and there is nothing they can do about it. I mean, what are they supposed to do? Come from 2 directions at once? If you aren't playing Dredge or Twins, this isn't possible and those 2 have little trouble dealing with jungle gyms.

    Leaving is also something that works in theory but typically not for M1 killers. Most of them have one thing in common. They don't have great mobility, so if they leave a survivor, it will take a while for them to actually get to another. And what is to stop them from running to the same safe set up, that you just came from? You can of course try to cut them off but most survivors run exhaustion perks that allow them to get extra distance which they can use to run around you. And if that doesn't work, then they still have the opportunity to use the speed boost after a hit to get there. Are you going to leave them again? Sure, you got them away from a gen and they will need to heal, so you have slowed down the game but you haven't actually progressed. Meaning, you are still in a worse spot than you were before. The next problem is that you also don't get to use your slowdown perks, if you don't progress. This is a downwards spiral.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,901

    I have an easy solution for the jungle gyms myself: I don't play these powerless M1 killers. Easy.

    It doesn't mean nothing should be done. If not a change making the jungle gyms more fair to these weak killers, then maybe then some base buff applied to them would do the trick.

    Note that reducing the strength of jungle gyms wouldn't be that bad IMHO. I'm not very good at looping (I'm a Blendette at heart) so I would get caught maybe one or two seconds earlier: big deal. Most survivors aren't experts and would minimally be affected. And that's assuming the killer is good BTW.

    The 60% rate has been decided for very good and tried reasons.

    If I recall, at some point it was aimed to 50% and survivors could not find killers to be matched against anymore. Fun times.

    Sure, plenty. Care to share a few of these perks making looping impossible for the class?

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,135
    edited October 26

    Vaults block with 3 vaults. They block with 1 vault after its unblocked, and theres also bloodlust

  • Gaminboi2864
    Gaminboi2864 Member Posts: 20

    I think it's important to remember that this is a party game. Sure it gets stressful for either sides, but there is little you can do against an opponent that knows what they are doing. And to help M1 Killers, it's not impossible to basekit catch a Survivor thanks to the Entity block mechanic and Bloodlust mechanic, although it will waste a lot of time. The Perks you can run to assist you include Bamboozle, Hex: Blood Favor and Crowd Control, Superior Anatomy, Spirit Fury, Enduring, Play With Your Food, Save The Best For Last, and Rapid Brutality. You got to know what perks will work best with your chosen Killer, and the perks I listed aren't so useful for Killers with anti-loop. If you lose as Survivor or Killer, you weren't bad, you were just unlucky and lost a 50/50 which means you lost the game.

  • jmwjmw27
    jmwjmw27 Member Posts: 413

    Cool writeup, but TL walls on their own are not strong at all, they are probably slightly killer sided. On their own, you rely on mindgames or suboptimal play from your opponent to make more than 1 vault without getting hit (against M1 killers). Even checkspots are 50/50s on this tile.

    They are strong if and only if they have another tile or resource nearby you can chain to, or if you have Lithe to use them to move somewhere else.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,824

    Oh, believe me. I'd rather chase an insane survivor around the shack or a jungle gym than a TL wall. If you haven't seen what some survivors can do with these, you're really missing out.

    Luckily very few survivors are actually on that level.

  • jmwjmw27
    jmwjmw27 Member Posts: 413

    The thing about TL walls is that as an M1 killer you have counterplay. Again, assuming no exhaustion or tile chaining it only takes 1 vault before you are in a position to mindgame. An insane survivor can get guaranteed no counterplay value at low ping on shack/gyms with checkspots, there are no safe checkspots on TL walls. I'd much rather chase someone there where I have opportunities to cut the chase short.

  • jmwjmw27
    jmwjmw27 Member Posts: 413

    And of course if the survivor is way better than me and wins mindgames, they can force that window to block too but then they need another tile, there is no pallet to fall back on.

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,169

    Leaving is also something that works in theory but typically not for M1 killers. Most of them have one thing in common. They don't have great mobility, so if they leave a survivor, it will take a while for them to actually get to another.

    Funnily enough, I think this is where Freddy is the exception.

    Knowing when to drop chase has always been an extremely important skill for Freddy mains, which they absolutely had to learn. First it was because of the map control playstyle, now it is because you have to drop some chases or you will lose the game.

    And thankfully your power allows you to get away. If not with the old Dream World slowdown + aura reading, then with the current teleport.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,824

    True. I consider TL walls to be fair because both sides have lots of skill expression and chances to mind game. A really cracked survivor however will still take forever to hit and you will have at least one window blocked before that. At a certain point, your plays as a killer lose meaning because no matter what you do, it will not result in a better outcome anyway.

    The reason I can accept that for TL walls is because it's incredibly hard while other tiles have the aforementioned check spots that allow you to react to whatever the killer does. That's not that hard and the main reason you can still hit some survivors around these is that they either have no clue about that or they are so overconfident that they don't properly adjust to what you do.

  • iloveandhatethisgame
    iloveandhatethisgame Member Posts: 197

    I do have to ask, what loops to killer mains consider fair?

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 995
    edited October 28

    You can in fact mindgame most survivors you encounter on most of any tile. Even in chases between very experienced and skilled players (such as on the DbD League 1v1 ladder) gyms get mindgamed, and most pub random survivors will be fairly easily outplayed even at these safe tiles. I can give you pointers if you want any.

    Here are a few fundamental ones to start you off (edit: I think I should point out that the lines pointing away from "you" are supposed to signify your red stain/the direction you are facing towards, not torso and arms 😅):

    On the short-wall gym, hide your red light here when rounding the pallet after the survivor has dropped or vaulted it. The survivor now does not know whether you have doubled-back and are cutting through or behind the gym, and most pub randoms will hesitate, allowing you to quickly round the corner and potentially get them. You can also stand still in that position for a few seconds, leading many survivors to panic and run back into you when you finally round the corner. Alternatively, you can obviously actually then cut through or behind the gym, to catch the survivor holding the spot at the window, hiding your red light like so:

    To attempt to mindgame the window, hide your red light here:

    Now the survivor again does not know whether you are cutting through or in front of the gym and will hesitate or panic. Round the corner with some delay, or actually cut through or in front of the gym, while hiding your red light:

    Long-wall gyms are a little more complex so I will spare you further silly sketches.

    Most killer abilities also make it very interactive to play around these safer tiles, whereas less safe tiles tend to be rather linear and boring against these chase abilities, and either lead to more or less guaranteed hits eventually, or 50/50s at best, at least if the survivor player isn't much better than the kiler player.

    For killers that do not have potent chase abilities, the optimal play (if you want to win as reliably as possible that is - if you want to have more fun and engaging gameplay mindgaming is always cooler) on these safer tiles against competent survivors regularly simply is to force the pallet use and then break it. Breaking pallets is a completely sensible game action and part of the basic gameplay loop, not every tile has to reliably be outplayable. It's not a loss to break a pallet, the best killer players break pallets and win games against the best survivor players. You would also be well-advised to use perks like Bamboozle and Brutal Strength on those killers, brute-forcing these tiles without needing to get good at mindgaming or risking the survivor out-mindgaming you, and still not losing a lot of time in the process.

    Basic logic on how to chase in these tiles to most efficiently force the window block/pallet drop can easily be found around the web, with YouTube videos obviously being a very easy-to-follow source. But I'll point you here, simply because I copied the gym sketch from there: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/d6q8im/quick_rundown_of_how_to_run_some_generic_tiles.

    Post edited by zarr on