Why do you people want WoO to get nerfed so badly??

It can be very obvious when a survivor is using WoO, and not in a fun way.

They beeline from loop to loop, consuming each pallet one after the other. For M1 killers it's very tiresome and results in a long drawn out chase, but for the other survivors it typically means all the pallets get used up.

It's not exactly overpowered, but it's neither fun nor beneficial for the other players either, unless they also happen to be a great looper anyway and actually waste enough of the killers time for the others to make significant repairs.

But it's a tricky perk to nerf, because it's one of the few things that are equally useful at all skill levels, so by nerfing it out of the meta you're also degrading a useful tool for new players.

For purposes of getting it out of the meta though, it's simply not good game design to have one perk be so far above all others in pick rate. There shouldn't be one perk that players find 'essential' to use. Nerfing is one way to stop that happening, but it's not the only way, you could also find ways to make it unnecessary.

One of which could be to make pallets and vaults more visible, this would benefit both sides as survivors would more easily see what resources are available while killers can predict which resources the survivor might use. Pallets could be more brightly coloured, vaults could be designed more consistently with yellow telegraphing like newer maps have done, aand broken pallets could splay out their colourful fragments further so you can tell when a pallet has be used from around some corners, etc.

Who tf uses zanshin other than 300 page clown guide guy

I can understand killers finding it frustrating but I think it is a necessary evil for the constant influx of new players for whom it makes the new player experience so much better.

I don't even use the perk myself but I don't want it nerfed, I think they need to stop this whole thing of buffing everything to make every perk and mid tier killer as strong as each other.

Depends on the skill level of the players. I'll use my level (4000 hours ingame) as an example. At my level, I think the value survivors get is more than what killers got, because most maps it is not difficult to know pallet and window locations on. For me as a killer and for killers around my level, the only real utility is when there's a new map or event that introduces resources (void, temporary pallets) or the killer wants to turn their brain off and not worry about what resources they've already depleted. For survivor, it's basically the same but provides a bit of extra utility for solo queue and seeing the killer break a pallet or breakable wall through walls.

In general, considering the average skill level, I also think survivors make more of it than killers do (probably a lot more so), as simply being able to get to a resource is very important for survivor and gives more than the killer knowing what resource is ahead. Killers can use it to zone survivors, but in general suboptimal survivors being able to avoid deadzones is a huge plus that's hard to outweigh with Zanshin.

The data's value and importance was honestly higher for WoO than Zanshin, even though they were effectively the same. As long as they're not being zoned, survivors control the direction of a chase at any given time. That said, routing your movement in advance is one of the key strengths of WoO, while another one is managing resources that other survivors have already used. Killer also doesn't need to know which pallets are used/broken, because 99% of the time they were present when the pallet was used up, so that data becomes significantly less important to them.

They were very similar in terms of their data they provided, but both their application and potential changed significantly due to the functions/objectives of their role. Zanshin in its previous iteration still had its uses, and different killers got different degrees of value from it, but it was rarely enough of an impact to sacrifice a perk slot for on most builds.

Its easy to assume they were equal due to an equal impact, but consider this. If something is evenly distributed to two different people, there is a good chance they will have differing levels of usefulness. If you gave two people food and one of them was allergic, they wouldn't be able to get as much value from the food as the other person. Its just a matter of having different objectives and gameplay loops.

Your making my point for me. If WoO was removed from the game would we see a spike in kill rates? enough to skew the data in the long term to where certain killers will need to have tweaks made to them based of the said data? idk but I wonder.

You explained how those 2 identical perks act differently depending on which role you play (killer or survivor). For the survivor side it's immensely beneficial and for the killer side not so much. The current "outrage" of WoO is because of how auto pilot the perk is especially if you are new as well as experienced because it takes the overall game sense that one learns through experience and time and sort of just guides you where to go depending where you are on the map that's why it's unhealthy. It turns trash loopers into better loopers almost instantly.

What do you think would happen if WoO got removed from the game? seriously, what do you think would happen?

Windows is fine, killers have their own version of windows. They can't help but complain about everything. That's one reason why they deserve nothing 😂

It's not autopilot. If you have a problem with pre-dropping pallets every time being viable, that's one thing. It's a another to suggest that this perk straight-up makes survivors better. Only survivors who know how to loop will benefit from this perk. Otherwise, you'll still survivors running z walls because, "Look! There's a window I can use!" The perk doesn't take away the need for skill/game knowledge.

That's the thing though. If you don't loop, you can't really make a mistake against most killers. No matter how good of a Freddy main you are, you will not outplay the Shift + W into pre drop pallet into window into pre drop 5 other pallets.

You can tell whether or not a survivor has WoO just by looking at their pathing and play style. That already shows how impactful this perk actually is.

I am not arguing that WoO is overpowered but unhealthy. It takes away the interactivity in the only interactive part of the game. You literally play by a manual when using this perk, which makes every chase feel the exact same.

But worse than that is the effect this perk actually has on survivors. Because it is NOT used to learn maps. Apply blindness to a survivor with WoO. They'll run around like a headless chicken. You could have a pallet blocking their path and they wouldn't notice it as long as it's not yellow!

Again, I would love to be "outlooped". At least then I actually get to try something and have real interaction with that survivor. But WoO obly results in survivors running from pallet to pallet without ever looping. That is incredibly tedious.

You missed the point. For me it's not about how much time a survivor gets in chase thanks to this perk but how it actually affects their and my gameplay. It's the same as with a bot. I don't want to play a game in which I already know what is going to happen in the next 40 seconds. But this is what WoO does.

It is used to run from loop to loop and pre drop occasionally until the killer has enough Bloodlust to hit you anyway. It's mind numbing.

If WoO was actually used to learn maps, its pick rate wouldn't remain that consistently high over such a long period of time. I mean, how long do you need to learn maps? Maybe 500 hours, if you're slow. Also, people that supposedly play in high MMR wouldn't use it either.

When you run WoO, there is no reason to focus on learning maps. So you can't take it off without dying instantly because you won't find any structures, which reinforces the need for WoO. That's why you see people panic whenever blindness counters their precious perk. They run by any loops and can't fathom the thought that vaults and windows are no longer highlighted in yellow.

If that isn't bad for survivors, I don't know what is.

Try it yourself. Go into a game and use perks or addons to apply blindness. You'll see what I mean. If it was only about winning, I'd do that more often but this is pretty boring as well.

I didn't say it makes them better. I said it makes them boring.

I'd say focus has turned to WoO because there is literally no other perk to complain about. Survivor perks are Mediocre at best. Now that dead hard has been eviscerated the community is floundering over a free information perk when the killer gets free info from literally a dozen actions of the survivor or kicking a gen. Here is the thing about WoO. The average player who runs it isn't that good. The above average player who can actually loop has the map memorized and already knows where the pallets are unless they are broken already. Yes, it can mean eating a bunch of pallets in the beginning but that's where you learn how to force the survivor into a deadzone and not just follow them from pallet to pallet . Knowing where pallets and windows are doesn't mean you can get to them or know how to loop properly. I think if it showed a significant win advantage it would have been nerfed already. Now if they go with the tried and true overuse excuse you can expect grim, penti, deadlock, lethal, and dms to follow suit as they continue to grow in popularity.

Honestly, as someone who plays both sides fairly evenly, it can be a real PITA to remember every power and ability + Add-ons for every killer. Though what makes it worse is that I can remember counterplay for killers that are popular Wesker, Huntress, Wraith, Blight, Trapper. etc. But throw me against a Pyramid Head, Freddy, Hag and other killers who aren't played as much and suddenly I'm lost because I rarely see them so their counterplay is unknown to me and I get caught out because I don't know what to look for with their kits, let alone their load-out.

It's also the same with survivor perks, there are so many second-chance perks with chase and vaulting and movement speed that its a task trying to remember which one does what "but better."

If the perk was designed for beginners they shouldn't hide it in a dlc.
That being said it is the most used survivor perk period and across the board. "All it does is reveal locations of pallets and windows" yes that is exactly the point.
It has no condition to activate, works unlimited, has no downside, has no cooldown and it shows a survivor every chase related resources in the game, which is the highest value you can get as survivor. Delaying a down and burning the killers time is the most important thing a survivor can do. With this perk a survivor is guaranteed to extend the chase.
That is the reason tons of people even in high mmr use it.
Outplaying WoO is not possible with every killer so you either have to take the time and burn through the resources or leave.
Zanshin Tactics does not have this effect anymore but even if, what value does a window or a pallet has to a killer? A killer cannot fast vault and knowing that ther is a pallet a head might only deny the stun sometimes and thats it. A killer doesn't have much value from that perk.
If you don't have any issues well then you're either not high mmr or you are the king pin of Onryo. Either way just because you don't struggle with it doesn't mean tons of others people are not allowed to complain if they struggle.

I have to disagree here. There have been complains about most of the problematic perks almost as soon as they were released. Personally I have been complaining about the state of windows since it reached it's current state.
It's just that there was no trend around it. Most of the time a perk becomes a trend when it either is completly broken or some influencers create a trend by showing how "funny" it is to abuse it.
Now we never had that situation with windows as nobody would make a video about the "abusive potential of windows" when there are perks like head on and flash bang in the game.
But still the perk gets a lof of attention because even streamers with 10 k hours in the game use it very frequently.

So in my oppinion a perk complain becomes loud the moment a trend around it arises. And it is natural that when a trend ends a new one is created.
The image of two factions batteling each other (killer/survivor) needs to end. We are one community and most people play both sides.

One thing that could be a pretty big hint: WoO is the most used Survivor perk, sitting at a lofty 30% pick rate, while old Zanshin was the LEAST used Killer perk, with a smoll pick rate of 0,6%. Basically 1 to 1 effect, but worlds appart in usability and viability.

This is an excellent comparison. Comparing WoO to Zanshin is ridiculous. WoO is much more useful to survivors than Zanshin is to killers.

Sometimes people just need to be shown. Terrible comparisons really sour talking points.

But this, I disagree with. Maybe the needle would move a little, but anyone hyping Woo up to be some sort of survivor hand hold is just off the mark. WoO does nothing if the survivor is already bad at chase. It will extend a bit, but at the cost of predropping everything on the map. Which means no resources and the rest of the game is smooth sailing.

If 'WoO is boring to play against', then pick a new game. Tunneling is boring to play against.

I am agreeing with Aku. To compare the two perks across lines is not a good comparison. If a perk acts the very same way and both sides have it, it will function in very different ways. So Aku is spot on.

You sound very disingenuous. "It might move the needle a little bit, "It will extend the chase a bit". Your confirming what I and others are saying is problem of this perk in its current state and trying to downplay it's utility in-game.

If I sound that way, take comfort knowing I'm being very genuine. With WoO, its the same thing that happened to Distortion. Claims will be made that Distortion creates rat style gameplay, hiding all game and waiting out for hatch. Well, Distortion was nerfed and its still happening. So, the claims rallied by one side were found to be untrue, but! Still got their way. In the end, thats all that matters. Distortion is barely talked about now, because it's dead. No need to keep it going.

With WoO, the 'it creates rat playstyle' is now just 'Makes players autopilot' or whatever other BS is being claimed. Extending the chase a bit only works if its pre-drop after pre-drop. Otherwise… no. Its useless if the survivor can't loop. Do you disagree?

Talking in another thread currently where it was mentioned how people 'quote' and leave things out to make it fit their narritive. You just did that to me. Who's being disingenuous?

Also WoO is really helpful for bridging the gap between solo-queue and SWF; it's not a miracle bridge but a bridge nonetheless; I can easily tell my friends on discord call "Hey the pallets on this side of the map are almost gone; try to bring the killer to this area instead" whereas I can't do that off in solo-que so knowing where pallets (WoO) to know if your team used it/etc is VERY helpful to solo-queue.

Shouldn't be nerfed; I feel folk want it nerfed cause it bridges that gap, many already want to be able to dodge SWFs so they do NOT want solo-queue getting closer to SWF's potential strength in communication/planning/resourcefulness.

I have made my peace with WOO. While I hate the autopilot playstyle that it supports and find it disingenuous to claim that it's only useful to soloQ and newbies, and I think that it is an extremely strong perk in the hands of already good survivors, who can plan and extend chases perfectly with it, I also see the invaluable information this perk provides to the most vulnerable parts of the player base, ie the new ones and soloQ.

I want to try to be somewhat neutral and don't want to be part of the constant shifting of the goal post. I fought DH and MfT tooth and nail, because they were genuine busted, but WoO is just a nuisance and a pretty feelgood perk, so I support to just leave it alone.

Maybe we could talk about a cooldown after a dropped pallet or after x seconds in chase or only showing distant pallets but not near ones,ie being blind within 12m? But if nothing changes, then I am happy with that outcome.

I don’t believe any perk (for survivor OR killer) should be viable only at a specific player level; those being novice, intermediate, advanced, etc. All perks should have utility regardless of a player’s skill level. They’re called perks as in they enhance gameplay. If they’re in some way detrimental, what’s the point of using them? As for trade offs those are usually fine but not every perk should have an inborn weakness—certainly not if it does something one can do without it.

Personally, I don’t mind WoO as killer or survivor, but I do not wish to see another survivor perk hampered with extraneous, unnecessary conditions because the opposition feels it makes their games challenging. I mentioned elsewhere this perk has been in the game literal years and isn’t doing anything today it hasn’t always done. The only reason why it’s META relevant is because maps are being reworked to favor killers and survivor perks are being nerfed to a point where only 12 or so provide consistent, general value.