Pain Resonance Change Proposal
I'll lay my cards on the table right off the bat: I don't think Pain Res is in a particularly healthy spot and I don't think the initial rework it got back in 6.7.0 (I think) really worked out as intended.
The goal of that rework, at least to my understanding, was to incentivise spreading your pressure across multiple hooks so that you'd have more access to your tokens. On paper, this should dissuade players away from tunnelling and towards less cheap strategies… but I don't think it worked. There's nothing really stopping you from tunnelling someone out and then using your remaining three tokens in the already extremely advantageous 3v1.
This, on top of it just being annoying as hell to face by default, is enough for me personally to want it adjusted again. Here's what I propose:
- When a survivor is hooked on a Scourge Hook, the generator with the most progress explodes and loses 10% of its maximum progress. Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance deactivates when a survivor dies.
This way, Pain Res actually disincentivises tunnelling someone out of the match ASAP, while still providing some real value for spreading your hooks across multiple survivors. It'd be less annoying to be hit by because the number is lower, but it can be used more often so it still adds up to a hefty amount of slowdown. It allows you to use Pain Res back to back on the same survivor if the situation calls for it, but if you get that survivor out of the match your perk's gone.
In my opinion, this would be the healthiest version of Pain Res. It'd keep the perk strong and viable without it being overbearing, and it'd push the playstyle of using it into a much healthier direction for the game; the best of both worlds.
Comments
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Seems fair. The only issue with the perk is when a survivor gets tunneled out early, and then the last three still have to deal with another three pain res hits. I'd be fine with it getting a regression buff at the same time.
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abysmal idea. something that is not talked about with pain res is that pain res doesn't slow the game down. it only refunds the time takes to hook someone. on average, picking up survivor a survivor takes 3 second and putting them on a hook is like 2 seconds. hooking takes anywhere between 6 to 18 seconds. on average, it takes around 12-14 second to get a hook. the amount of regression that pain res provides is only dis-accounting 1 survivor being on a gen for the time spend carrying the hook.
So nerfing the perks regression makes the perk worthless. killers already suffer penalty for tunneling with pain res. they don't get full benefit of pain res which is -40% regression and grim embrace has similar limiting factor of -40 second gen-blocking. this assuming 2/4 survivors are hooked and killer tunnels after that till the hooked people die.
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The actual slowdown comes from your gameplay. The regression you get from perks is supposed to complement that, not replace it.
10% total progression taken off is not at all a worthless effect. Other perks have numbers around this level and they're perfectly fine, so it would be for Pain Res too. It's just free extra regression for an action you're already going to be doing either way, so you don't need to "refund" the time spent doing it for the extra regression to be worthwhile.
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We'd say this should be tested but we do like it (though we'd bump up the number little).
The main concern is the whole people swinging to death. Since this turns off when someone dies it steals the perk effectively (we personally don't mind but this is a concern for everyone) A second concern is that people would tunnel till death hook and then slug. Needless to say that would be a great pain in the arse.
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I do see the concern with those two things, but I personally consider them problems in their own right that'll need their own dedicated fixes.
Slugging a little less so, that's got a reasonable amount of counters in most scenarios, but people leaving matches without a penalty needs to be addressed either way.
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Well on the bright side once that one is solved its effectively a near universal solution to alot of problems. Till then though that's going to be the major obstacle for thing like this.
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10% total progression taken off is not at all a worthless effect. Other perks have numbers around this level and they're perfectly fine, so it would be for Pain Res too. It's just free extra regression for an action you're already going to be doing either way, so you don't need to "refund" the time spent doing it for the extra regression to be worthwhile.
Those other perks that have numbers around this level are near worthless. it is why i don't regression perk that much anymore. the number are terrible. Most my builds run are now gen-blocking builds.
Pain res is there to reduce the PUNISHMENT for not tunneling. it doesn't mean that killer won't tunnel with the perk.
The actual slowdown comes from your gameplay. The regression you get from perks is supposed to complement that, not replace it.
the actual slowdown for killer applying pressure is not good enough. decent teams are almost immune to any killer pressure. there is just has no impact. you get 5-6 minute games. it is wildly skewed for survivor.
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There's no point in using it when it only slows down by around 10%.
It's still like this even now at 20%. It's not hard to imagine.1 -
How do you mean? Pain Resonance is currently arguably the strongest killer perk with 20%, and that's only four times.
There are also other slowdown perks at or around 10% and they're perfectly usable, even with the extra conditions they have compared to Pain Res. It'd be more than usable at 10% for every hook.
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Hard disagree with this line of thinking. You shouldn't make a massive nerf then put a disable condition on it. If anything if you would put a disable condition on it then it should be buffed or moderately reworked to suit it better but with a more forced playstyle.
Why not instead double down on it being a reward for not tunneling perk for killers and maybe add a secondary effect that forces the killer away after it activates instead that can backfire if you want to pivot to tunnel midgame
Scourge Hook: Pain resonance
You start the Trial with 4 Tokens on Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance.
Each time a Survivor is hooked on a Scourge Hook for the first time, 1 Token is consumed and the following effects apply:
The Generator
with the most Progression explodes and instantly regresses by 10/15/20 % of its total Progression.
Normal Generator Regression applies afterwards.
All Survivors repairing that Generator will scream, but not reveal their location.(new) 3s after hooking the survivor teleport to the generator closest to the furthest survivor with the least hook stages (similar to how Freddy teleports but can teleport to incomplete gens) and reveal the aura of the survivor teleported to this way for 8 seconds survivors who have their aura revealed this way cannot have it blocked by any means (no lockers / distortion / off the record)
(new) This perk becomes disabled after a survivor dies.
Now the perk is a very unique perk that can send the killer to the opposite side of the map in seconds on a wild goose chase after survivors who they can use it on
Its not a well polished effect but id 100% want to see it before a massive double nerf thats unnecessary atm
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I don't view this as a massive nerf, it's at worst a sidegrade. It's more overall regression (90% total regression for two hooking everyone then killing one, versus 80% total regression for hooking everyone once), staggered over more hook actions. That's hardly a massive nerf even if it ends up a tiny bit weaker overall.
Besides, it's not as though Pain Res isn't incredibly strong right now. It can handle a slight nerf in the course of making it much healthier.
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The problem is it being spread out doesn't really feel rewarding or impactful for going after different survivors. 10% each proc is pitiful. Especially considering the release version of the perk was 15% per hook AND had info. 20% at once makes up for the time taken to hook the survivor 10% doesn't even cover the time to nearby hooks
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Considering that hooks themselves are already your springboard for slowdown and pressure, you don't need to "make up" for the time it takes to hook someone. You already do that just by playing normally, and the regression you get on top is extra slowdown.
The number could end up being higher, don't get me wrong, but 10% is far from pitiful considering it comes when you're already setting yourself up to keep the ball rolling. It's not like, say, Eruption or Surge - fine perks, far from terrible, but they proc on downs, and downs can be stopped from converting into hooks by survivors. If that happens, you only get that regression and nothing else.
With Pain Res, you always have the hook, and all the pressure that comes with it.
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I agree with it deactivating on a survivor death, but I would keep the tokens and leave it at 20%. The tokens would serve their intended purpose just fine if you add in the deactivation on death clause, and in some ways I feel like the perk was actually more obnoxious when it activated on every scourge hook despite the regression value being lower (15% back then), as it gave more opportunities for PR + DMS to work and also meant that generators could be left in a regressing state from the perk more often (either due to DMS blocking the gen, or nowadays if the killer forces you off the gen before you can stop the regression since that isn't instant anymore), which overall made it more annoying to play against.
To an extent, getting the full value for one survivor from just one scourge hook also makes the perk more fun to use for killers, because scourge hook RNG doesn't matter as much with this perk as it does with the other scourge hook perks (ie. as long as you get a survivor on a scourge hook once, it doesn't matter if you do the second time or not).
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I left it out of my post, but I also think the PR + DMS pair should be fixed again. I have no idea why it went from being counterable to becoming uncounterable again, whether that's a bug or an intended change, but it's really annoying. The solution was elegant and effective, there's no reason not to bring it back.
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Its not extra slowdown though especially since yes the high end is 90% is while playing the nicest. For the other version you could get 100% value out of it at 4 hooks and then kill someone at 6 hooks. This one gives the same value at 8 hooks and only more value after 9 hooks. Having a gap that big of leaving 4 survivors alive for that long is just asking to lose.
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I mean, yeah, that's the point. It's the perk for encouraging spreading pressure, the healthier thing for perks to encourage.
If you kill someone at six hooks in that scenario, doesn't that necessarily imply you're tunnelling the survivor you choose to get out, since you've only got two more hooks? Pain Res shouldn't give you 100% value in that scenario.
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That's fair. They could just make DMS activate like 1 second after the hook instead of immediately, so the combo wouldn't work anymore but DMS on its own would basically be unchanged
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What they did before was make it so Pain Res didn't make you scream until the end of the hook animation, meaning you could keep an eye out and let go as the hook happened to avoid being kicked off.
It worked great, I don't know why it changed. DMS having a second's delay would also work, though.
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Oh yeah, forgot it was like that for a bit.
Fwiw, the change to it triggering earlier is fully intended, it wasn't a bug. Because when they made that change, they also shadow-buffed BBQ and Grim Embrace's aura-reveals by 1 second each in the same patch to offset the change (to avoid indirectly nerfing them since the killer can't look around right away and the perks activated sooner). BBQ used to be 4 seconds and now it's 5 because of that.
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3 hooks is the minimum to kill someone, 6 hooks is the minimum to hook all survivors once and have one survivor dead
you already stretch 3 into 6 but thats not good enough to reward?
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My issue is with tunnelling, not hook count. Obviously tunnelling is worse from the very start of the match, but purposefully chasing someone immediately after unhook until they're dead is bad and something we should be moving away from as strenuously as possible.
If you choose to do it, disregarding any other changes that should happen, you definitely shouldn't get to have regression perks available afterwards. Regression perks in a 3v1 are overkill.
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Then just make it disable upon a survivor dying, that should be enough to knee cap it if you tunnel no need to also make it worse 90% of the time
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Well, that would still be better than what we have now, but it wouldn't do as much to dissuade killers from tunnelling after their tokens are used up.
But, still, that would be better so I'd like to see that if it's all that's on the table. I'd still prefer to see it get an improvement on being able to be used on every hook for a lower number, but if that isn't on the table, I'm fine with that.
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- 10% on a Scourge hook is pretty bad. Remember, Scourges are RNG in their placement. So the effect needs to be strong, or at least strong enough to warrant sometimes going past a closer, more convenient hook for a further Scourge one. And if you bump it to 15%, then it's its OG state, except now it turns off when someone dies.
- This is not going to stop me from tunnelling. It could arguably be a little worse. I tunnel Bill, get pain res once, twice, and finally thrice. I get a 30% slowdown all by tunnelling, possibly combined with DMS for a 50-second block. So I get MORE regression (3 10% vs 1 20%), have a gen blocked potentially longer, and the only consequence is I'm down a perk in a 3v1—big whoop.
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I would argue that the Scourge Hook placement is less of a requirement than comparable perks, which is part of why Pain Res is so overwhelmingly strong right now. Eruption is 10%, though it does apply to multiple gens, and it requires more than being in range of a white hook- same with Surge, a lower number with more of a position requirement.
I could see the number being higher, based on testing, but my gut tells me 10% would be enough for Pain Res to honestly still be easily the best regression perk in the game. Even if it isn't, it's just in line with everything else instead of actually being bad.
Tunnelling will of course need to be fixed anyway, my only goal with this change is to make it so Pain Res in particular stops working if you tunnel.
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I agree Pain Res should deactivate when a survivor dies, but keep the current 4 token fresh hook form and buff to maybe 25% if needed.
4 token pain res alleviates rng issues with struggling to reach a pain res hook for each down, allowing killers to more consistently get max value from the perk.
Not being able to pain res survivors over and over also:
- discourages forcing hook trades on the same scourge hook, which was not only boring with how effective it was but encouraged as the best way to ensure every hook was a pain res.
- limits synergy between pain res and current DMS, which with current DMS is the strongest the combo has ever been.
- avoids GrimReaperJr's scenario of tunnelling a Bill and getting 3 scourge hooks for 30% regression, with the max regression instead being 20% once.
Pain Res deactivating on survivor death makes the perk more interesting because it forces killers to decide between an early tunnel out (very good result) or 4 pain res hooks (also good) with the earliest possible kill happening at 6 hook stages. It also removes the uninteresting scenario of killers being able to tunnel someone out and then stomp in the 3v1 with pain res pop for free.
I think in general to nerf tunnelling, instead of adding a roughly implemented measure that feels terrible to verse bhvr can organically do so by reworking perks to reward splitting pressure and punish tunnelling and pain res is the place to start. (BBQ shouldn't give BPs because BPs forcing perk meta as BBQ and prove thyself used to is uninteresting)
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Yes. More of the strongest slowdown perks should depreciate as survivors are eliminated. Would do wonders for tunneling.
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I agree with that.
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So, when everyone is screaming about the epidemic of slugging and that hooks are not so effective, you propose nerf the perks that encourage hooks, well this is not a good idea
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I have seen some people making the claim about hooks not being effective, but I have absolutely no clue what they could possibly mean, so it doesn't sway my opinions about what would be good changes.
As for slugging, I don't think it's the problem others do, outside of specific niche interactions like slugging everyone to death intentionally. Whatever the scale of that problem, though, it'll obviously require its own adjustments.
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