Tunneling and Extra Regression - A new approach
So first of all, this will be a lot to read. Thank you in advance if you take the time.
The problem has long existed that tunneling is one, if not the, strongest tactic for winning a match in DBD.
As a killer, if you want to win consistently, you are almost forced to turn a 4vs1 into a 3vs1 as quickly as possible, it usually takes little effort and is effective.
For the survivor side, however, even if you have the right setup, this is usually frustrating and it spoils the overall fun/flow of the game.
One approach to solving this problem would be to reward killers more who chase different survivors and to distribute the pressure and make the game more varied.
How could the problem be solved?
The Chase Token System:
Becomes active when the first survivor is hooked.
Now, when the killer starts chasing a survivor other than the survivors he just hooked, he will start filling up that Chase Token Bar.
One Chase Token is earned every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 6 tokens (after 90sec if continuously in chase)
If the chase ends by downing the survivor, the tokens are locked in. When this survivor is hooked, one special bonus regression event is triggered (details later) for each token (6 tokens -> 6%) on the most advanced generator.
If the chase is interrupted (Survivor escapes, etc.), the collected token bar slowly begins to fade (similar to the Trickster's laceration meter). It will only continue to fill up again when the conditions are met again (no chase with the last hooked survivor)
If the survivor who was last on the hook is the next one that got downed again (regardless of whether the token bar was full), no tokens will be locked in and they will then be lost.
The special regression event:
As already mentioned, the regression event is triggered upon hooking and when accumulated locked tokens were available.
This event does not trigger an explosion on the generator, nor does it cause the generator to regress any further. It should basically work like the OG ruin if you only did a good skill check, a small regress without information for the killer.
Since this effect is probably still in the developers' database somewhere, it wouldn't be too complicated to implement.
Tunneling out one single survivor - Extra Hook Stage:
If the killer decides to only hunt a single survivor and wants to hook him 3 times in a row without hooking another survivor, the "Extra Hook Stage" event is triggered.
In this case, the survivor gets a bonus hook stage. This means that he has to be hooked a total of 4 times in order to die.
Short summary:
Killers who have very strong chase potential do not benefit as much from the chase token system as those who have to invest time to build a setup and are less strong in chase.
New players who are not very experienced in the game and whose chase times are higher on average get a small boost to have a chance further in the game.
Players who are the only ones tunneled have an additional chance and can survive the hook stage longer.
The aim should be to increase the quality and variety of the game for both sides in order to still remain effective and reduce frustration.
Thanks for reading and I look forward to comments and criticism.
Comments
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I appreciate the amount of care and thought that goes into what you are suggesting. It would be nice, as a survivor, to at least get to stay in the game for a wee bit longer.
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Thank you, I've been thinking about this topic for a long time.
Yes it should contribute to this.
And as a side effect, it should motivate and reward killers for different strategies.0 -
Becomes active when the first survivor is hooked.
So the game still hinges on first chase ultra hard because to even get your ######### going you need to get through first chase AND ONLY ON SECOND chase you start getting any benefits.
One Chase Token is earned every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 6 tokens (after 90sec if continuously in chase). If the chase ends by downing the survivor, the tokens are locked in.
If the chase is interrupted (Survivor escapes, etc.), the collected token bar slowly begins to fade (similar to the Trickster's laceration meter). It will only continue to fill up again when the conditions are met again (no chase with the last hooked survivor)
So not only this system punishes you for dropping any chase that doesn't result into a down, it DISCOURAGES you from ending the chase as soon as possible and gives petty bonus for essentially lost chase (90 seconds is insane, that's basically 3 gen chase, not even counting the time to hook a person).
The only thing it accomplishes is slightly pulling the killer back into the game if they're losing the game hard which is surely nice, but it doesn't resolve any of the issues you are allegedly trying to resolve.
It may work better if the decaying is slow enough to actually enable efficient hit&run with moderate downtime between short chases, but I heavily doubt it can work like that with the numbers you've presented, since it takes a while to accumulate merely one token, let alone 6.
As already mentioned, the regression event is triggered upon hooking and when accumulated locked tokens were available.
This event does not trigger an explosion on the generator, nor does it cause the generator to regress any further. It should basically work like the OG ruin if you only did a good skill check, a small regress without information for the killer.
Since this effect is probably still in the developers' database somewhere, it wouldn't be too complicated to implement.
??? survivors are given a way to nullify the only reason for killer to overcommit to chases to people they won't even kill right away BECAUSE why?
If the killer decides to only hunt a single survivor and wants to hook him 3 times in a row without hooking another survivor, the "Extra Hook Stage" event is triggered.
In this case, the survivor gets a bonus hook stage. This means that he has to be hooked a total of 4 times in order to die.
Otz's idea was better.
Good intention, bad execution. This doesn't "solve" tunnelling, it doesn't give killer better alternative to go for elimination ASAP, it works very poorly as a way to help badly performing players, yet it also takes away from the ability to go for that early elimination, granted it's not significant enough to matter, except just being a mild annoyance and a boring band aid fix to tunnelling.
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This overcomplicates the solution, isn't a solution, and also doesn't address WHY killers tunnel in the first place.
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really, at this point it would've made more sense to just delete the whole elimination thing from the game and rework the gameplay around global hook meter so that macro missplays (not tunnelling/being tunnelled) are less punished on both sides.
stuff like what tru3talent was bringing up in that discussion with otz. i honestly hate the idea of it, but it at least makes some sense.
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So the game still hinges on first chase ultra hard because to even get your ######### going you need to get through first chase AND ONLY ON SECOND chase you start getting any benefits.
Based on the feedback answer, I'm afraid something has been misunderstood here. This is about a reward system to alternately hook different survivors. Nobody is penalized here compared to the current game version.
So not only this system punishes you for dropping any chase that doesn't result into a down, it DISCOURAGES you from ending the chase as soon as possible and gives petty bonus for essentially lost chase (90 seconds is insane, that's basically 3 gen chase, not even counting the time to hook a person).
The only thing it accomplishes is slightly pulling the killer back into the game if they're losing the game hard which is surely nice, but it doesn't resolve any of the issues you are allegedly trying to resolve.
It may work better if the decaying is slow enough to actually enable efficient hit&run with moderate downtime between short chases, but I heavily doubt it can work like that with the numbers you've presented, since it takes a while to accumulate merely one token, let alone 6
It should still be in the killer's interest to end the chase quickly in order to remain efficient. The additional regression serves as a catch-up mechanic especially for the killers who have a harder time in the chase and you can only get it under the conditions mentioned. Of course, the exact values (decay speed and regression percentage) have to be chosen and be tested very precisely to keep it fair for both sides.
??? survivors are given a way to nullify the only reason for killer to overcommit to chases to people they won't even kill right away BECAUSE why?
Of course, certain measurements must be incorporated in case the system is being exploited unfairly. If the survivor who has just been hooked is intentionally provoked to be downed, the “protection hit detection” can be used to prevent tokens from being lost.
Otz's idea was better.
Good intention, bad execution. This doesn't "solve" tunnelling, it doesn't give killer better alternative to go for elimination ASAP, it works very poorly as a way to help badly performing players, yet it also takes away from the ability to go for that early elimination, granted it's not significant enough to matter, except just being a mild annoyance and a boring band aid fix to tunnelling.
As I said, it should be a system that makes tunneling less attractive. If someone still wants to tunnel, they can certainly continue to do so, but it would then be less effective than it is currently.
It is intended to promote other strategies and paths that induce different approaches and also increase the quality and enjoyment of the game for both sides. The exact value definition for the mechanics is a very essential and important point.
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I'm afraid there isn't a simple solution to this issue otherwise we would probably already have one.
This problem has existed for a long time. It is primarily not intended to punish but rather to make/reward alternative approaches more attractive.4 -
I do admire your creativity - though what is it that incentivises tunneling? For one that it's possible, true - but the winrate achieved by turning a 4v1 into a 3v1 asap is disproportionately high. Any incentive based approach to precent tunneling would have to yield results at least as good as tunneling. Keeping survs longer in matches like that just means they're a punching bag for longer.
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The “checkpoints” on the tokens may make Killers hold back on a hit to make sure they hit the next token. It may also make the Killer annoyed if they “waste” some chase time with a partially full token.
Is there any way to make it more granular? All progress on a partial Token also counts towards partial regression?
For the extra Hook, that may incentivize the Killer to get one Hook on a survivor, one on another, then just returning to Hook the first survivor till out of the game. Now, one extra Hook can be important, but it still only works for one Hook, without addressing the overall kinda sour note of a hard tunnel.
On a personal note, I don’t like that these features function passively: The Tunnel “prevention” is handled by the system against the Killers action (Instead of survivors striving to prevent the killing of a “friend”). And the Chase regression just zaps the Gen with the most progress from a distance without meaningfully adding anything noticeable to gameplay (I wouldn’t call seeing progress removed from your generator as a survivor with no input on your part meaningful).1 -
Thanks, yes tunneling will still be strong but less attractive especially combined with existing antitunnel perks.
Of course, the exact regression values must be adjusted carefully here. Maybe 2% per token is a better value, that would be shown in tests. But it should pay off, I agree with you.0 -
The “checkpoints” on the tokens may make Killers hold back on a hit to make sure they hit the next token. It may also make the Killer annoyed if they “waste” some chase time with a partially full token.
Is there any way to make it more granular? All progress on a partial Token also counts towards partial regression?
That's a good point, and yes. A smooth transition would definitely be fairer, meaning that every second longer in the chase would mean more regression up to a maximum value.
In the current concept description this would probably be too extensive and more confusing than helpful. Still, I prefer your solution.For the extra Hook, that may incentivize the Killer to get one Hook on a survivor, one on another, then just returning to Hook the first survivor till out of the game. Now, one extra Hook can be important, but it still only works for one Hook, without addressing the overall kinda sour note of a hard tunnel.
There will still always be a META strategy that is strongest, that's the case in every PvP game. At the same time, the goal is to try to make this a little more bearable and fairer for both sides. One more hook stage is at least a little more relief and the advantages of chasing other survivors may come close to it with the right value adjustment.
On a personal note, I don’t like that these features function passively: The Tunnel “prevention” is handled by the system against the Killers action (Instead of survivors striving to prevent the killing of a “friend”). And the Chase regression just zaps the Gen with the most progress from a distance without meaningfully adding anything noticeable to gameplay (I wouldn’t call seeing progress removed from your generator as a survivor with no input on your part meaningful).
There are quite a few things here that are actively there to promote or hinder this style of play.
On the survivor side there are now many anti-tunnel perks that help.
On the killer side, it's perks like pain resonance or plaything that really come into play here.The thing is, there is nothing fixed and passive in the game atm and the reason for the suggestion.
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They did a shared hook pool in death garden iirc and it wasn't great.
I've advocated for a hybrid solution in the past: hook donation. Each survivor can choose to put their first hook stage into the shared pool, but not more than that.
So if the killer tunnels one person out, they will have to eat through 6 health stages to kill that survivor. But if they spread pressure it goes faster, because you aren't just waiting for the unhook and the focus goes back to being in chase all the time.
Survivors get the option to be selfish, but in tunneling situations, the best play is to give a hook stage to the team and everyone comes out better for it.
And for killers who apply map pressure and spread hooks, literally nothing changes. It only impacts camping and tunneling.
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The Blight in that screenshot could eat through 6 hook stages on one survivor while slugging out the rest. This mechanic neither solves anything nor adds any gameplay. The extra hook stage is easily avoided by hooking the rescuer in a trade granting a whopping 4s of distance to the tunnelee.
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This is a problem with blight and game balance. If the killer can burn through 6 hook stages then you're basically saying the killer can get 3 hook stages while mostly asleep...
Which is why blight has a 2000+ win streak. Played correctly, this killer basically cannot lose the game. That's a huge game balance problem, and basically says that if someone is losing as blight, at all, it's just a skill issue.
No game mechanic, that applies to all killers, can fix that without dumpstering most of the roster. You're looking in the wrong place in that scenario: the issue is the killer combined with the tunneling tactic being too strong. This targets tunneling, you have to address killer balance separately.
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I am well aware. I just found it amusing he used a Blight screenshot. Like I said if the condition for an extra hook stage is three consecutive hooks/hook stages then you just hook the rescuer coming for the trade and continue the tunnel. You don't need to play Blight for this.
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Deathgardens major issue was that while they had a shared hook pool, the Killer at any time could be like: nah man, and instant Mori a scav they downed. And even then we would see the issue with hook proxy coupled with ranged and that instant Mori.
(Hooks were added in after the fact, and were not part of the original gameplay design of DG)
There was no (basically) guaranteed second or third chance if you got found. So it was a game of mostly hide and seek. With as little action between the hunters and scavs as possible to avoid that instant Mori.
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Keep in mind such a hook donation system would also be used to funnel stages into a good looper while the others played more passive/focused on stealth.
It wouldn’t only be used for altruism to keep a player in.
I’m not wholly against that, but sharing hook stages to become more time efficient by increasing the “average chase time per hook” would necessitate any such transfer of stages having some kind of time-investment.
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I agree with @Halloulle. Incentives alone are not enough because they would need to be so strong that the game would become just as if not more insufferable than if the killer was hard tunneling.
The same is true for penalties. Punish a killer so much, that they won't consider tunneling a possibility and it becomes abusable to ruin their game either way. We already see people with DS forcing themself on the killer.
It needs some of both. Incentives to make it more convenient and viable to spread hooks and penalties to reduce the effectiveness of tunneling. The devs already tried their hands at designing killer perks that disincentivise tunneling and reward spreading hooks but they removed it from Ruin and if my build doesn't revolve around Pain Res, I suddenly have no reason to spread hooks anymore.
However, I think tunneling should always remain a viable yet situational play style. Otherwise the killer would lose even more of their ability to capitalise on survivor mistakes. If a survivor was to sit on a gen right next to them, then they absolutely should not be protected by the game.
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like said It should still be in the killer's interest to end the chase as quickly as possible. So it should never be the case that delaying the chase is more rewarding.
If a survivor decides to provoke a down there should be measures in place to avoid negatively influencing the killer.
The tunneling playstyle should still be an option for those who really want to do so, just become less lucrative.0
