Interested in volunteering to help moderate for the Forums? Please fill out an application here: https://dbd.game/moderator-application
Kill Switch update: We have temporarily Kill Switched the Forgotten Ruins Map due to an issue that causes players to become stuck in place. The Map will remain out of rotation until this is resolved.

http://dbd.game/killswitch

Distortion Is Fine

2

Comments

  • Marc_123
    Marc_123 Member Posts: 4,034

    Yeah ok. We will have different opinions on that. But i have no problem with that.

    We will see what the future brings. I hope all aura reading is getting nuked one day but that may never happen. Imo it is detrimental for the game.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,954

    Oh, now I understand the link with Distortion. It wasn't Otz but another streamer I'd rather not name right now because it could derive into drama.

    The perk doesn't always work but that's not a problem for me. It's when it works that's the most fun. And when it doesn't … it still makes me laugh like a kid caught doing something naughty.

    I've considered replacing self-care by Distortion and a med-kid (I usually don't use any tool)

    It should extend the value a bit. Besides, if the killer is one of the ones I handle well*, I can probably recharge it once or twice.

    *) e.g. Nurse, Blight, Spirit … as long as they aren't stronger than me in that role

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,618
    edited October 2024

    I don't think you can guarantee, though, that new players will run into new Killers that don't tunnel. Matchmaking quite often wildly misplaces people into different matches and with a large amount of streamers saying that the most effective strategy is tunnelling it's more likely they will run into tunnellers and Killers who have at least base perks involving strong aura reading (eg any Onryo with Floods of Rage will easily pick up on an unhooked survivor).

    It won't be a make or break decision from BHVR in any event. However, it is a poor decision in my opinion. You may feel that the current level of counters is commensurate with the current level of aura reading but I disagree. As both of our positions are based on opinion with no data at hand to make inferences from it's just our opinions anyway.

    The other point I made is that Killers don't need any additional assistance right now as a whole based off of the data BHVR uses for balancing. New players on the other hand definitely do. As such, if there were to be a change I think basing it off of generator repair time would have been better for newer players overall. It would incentivize better habits for new survivors and, incidentally, new Killers should also have to work on locating survivors without aura reading perks as well since the game shouldn't be balanced around Killers getting on demand aura reading and it limits skill expression by making locating survivors so easy. As such, I don't think BHVR needed to make a change and the change, once we consider newer players, was poorly implemented. A different criteria (gen repairs) would have been more productive.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Well, yes, I'm only looking at that aspect because that's what is being compared.

    OTR being an anti-tunnel perk and Shadow Step being a better overall stealth perk is relevant but it's not the thing being directly compared. We're talking about people who want to be able to block auras in their matches, and in that context, Distortion is comparable while still being better. It's better because it's dedicated at doing that one thing, but it's not so much better that it invalidates the aura blocking even existing on the other two perks.

    If you want to block auras, specifically, that specific effect, there are reasons to bring any of the three current viable choices now. That includes Distortion, it's still in the running and it's still the best at it. It's just not perfect anymore. That's a good thing, it means players have meaningful choices to make instead of auto-locking the overtuned best in class, while still having the value they'd want to get from each perk.

    Y'know, except for Sole Survivor. That's kinda the asterisk on the "there's reasons to consider any aura block perk" take, that one still sucks.

  • jmwjmw27
    jmwjmw27 Member Posts: 829

    The only change needed for auras is making it known when the opposition can see yours. For both sides.

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 2,796

    It's able to be used against stealth killers now who have aura reading, so there is a buff against scratched mirror etc

  • Hermit
    Hermit Member Posts: 396

    People always bring up new players and bad players.

    New players should not run distortion and sit on gens and behind rocks all the time. They will quickly loose their newbie protection and soon after that they will reach the mmr softcap - they are now thrown into the wild and are not prepared for it. They will be the future "weak links" in a team.

    Just like new players should not rely on gen regression or perks like NOED when playing killer. All those perks will influence their mmr in a way, that is not positive for them.

    And bad players… well… should bad players really be carried by perks so they stay bad players forever? If you cannot hold your own in a chase for 15 seconds, do you really deserve to win in the end? And people are still wondering why soloQ is as bad as it is?

  • CleanseThis
    CleanseThis Member Posts: 202

    I don't even know how this is still an issue. Distortion hard countered a CATEGORY of perks.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Well, I think it's probably most relevant to take a step back here and remember that Distortion, in its current form, is still the best form of aura blocking. It's a little more niche now, as before it just blocked practically all auras for free with no input from the player, but it still fundamentally serves as the "I just want auras blocked and don't want to think that hard about it" perk.

    You have to think a little because token management matters now, but if you just don't want to be revealed by Lethal or you just want to avoid mid-match auras like NTH or BBQ, Distortion does that. I've said this a hundred times in this thread but it really is the most important part: It's just not perfect now.

    Distortion is allowed to be good at its job in exchange for not doing anything else. What it's not allowed to be, we must assume, is flawless at it. That seems pretty fair to me.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    I have never claimed this change is a good thing for survivors, I'm legitimately not entirely sure where that comes from. Is it because I said the change is good overall? I meant that it's good for the game as a whole, not specifically for survivor players. It's obviously still a nerf to a survivor perk.

    To the rest of your points… I mean, checking for Weave and blocking Lethal is what Distortion does. If you want that effect, bring Distortion. Not only have I not implied that OTR or Shadow Step work for this, I've literally said multiple times that they do not and Distortion is the perk covering this niche.

    The boon is not useless, but it serves a different niche that Distortion is now a little weaker at. If the main auras you're worried about are things revealing you while you're repairing/healing, like BBQ or Friends Til The End or such, Shadow Step is good because it just gives you a bubble of permanent aura blocking. Now that Distortion doesn't just also offer you permanent aura blocking with practically no restriction, that's a more worthwhile choice.

    OTR is still fundamentally an anti-tunnel perk, yes, but it can also be a layer of protection while you're vulnerable if the killer's not returning to the hook. It's the weakest in this context because it's mostly an anti-tunnel perk, but if aura reading enabling tunnelling is your concern, OTR is (and has been since 6.1.0 tbf, it's the one people do actually bring) viable there.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Yes, it is the best form of aura blocking, and it's definitely better than OTR.

    It's available immediately, it has no timer to block auras during, it recharges through regular gameplay with no functional limit other than how long you're in the match at all and it blocks scratch marks so it's more useful in chase. It heavily outclasses OTR at aura blocking, because it does so as its only function and OTR does so almost incidentally.

    It's closer to Shadow Step now as it doesn't have effectively 100% uptime anymore, but the balance still favours Distortion because it has no setup time nor does it have a restricted range. Shadow Step applies to everyone and offers the benefit of blocked scratch marks no matter what, but the setup time and range are still a factor. It's good, don't get me wrong, Shadow Step has been underrated since it launched, but if you just want to block auras and don't want to think about it, Distortion is better. You'd mostly bring Shadow Step if you want to do certain actions safely, whereas Distortion is better at evading early aura reading and chase aura reading while still being fairly useful outside those two contexts.

    Flat out, no ifs or buts, Distortion is a very solid perk at the moment and will absolutely work in most of the scenarios you'd have brought it for before. A little thought and preparation goes into using it now, but that's hardly reason to claim it's not worthwhile anymore.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 1,222
    edited October 2024

    Everytime a survivor perk is gutted to garbage someone make these the perk is still good pity posts yet you see how said perk just falls off fully of the board and not even in top 10 picks anymore. Coh, Mft, Adrenaline and distotion. I still to this day seen 0 distortion as survivor/killer.

    Anyways w.e OOO have been making me make killers mad and wasting time since I can loop, dcs are plus too that I been getting and I am like haha yeah I bet you regret asking distortion nerf.

    Hope people wake up and all 4 people run OOO as even if your not the obession any aura reading stuff killer have procs and you not being the obsession wont proc showing your aura or killers so its a win win without tokens.

    Post edited by buggybug on
  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Well, I laid out my reasons for thinking that OTR is weaker than Distortion in terms of aura blocking. I think OTR is the better perk overall and was so even before the nerf, but that's because anti-tunnel is very valuable at the moment.

    Distortion is just far more reliable. It blocks Lethal, which itself is a very noticeable bonus over its peers, and as long as you aren't trying to hide all match and you're actually taking chases, you're likely to have it up again next time there's an aura to block even in that scenario.

    If being more reliable and flexible isn't being better than the competition, I'm not sure what is. I tried to avoid specifically responding to the word "dominating" because it kind of implies that the only way Distortion can be worthwhile is if it has 100% uptime, but that's obviously not true.

    Basically, it boils down to this: Do you consider aura blocking useful because it allows you to make chases more favourable by either stopping you from being revealed in a bad spot to start a chase or by stopping your aura being read in chase, or do you consider aura blocking useful because it prevents you from being chased/revealed at all? Distortion is currently a great pick for the former, it's great at helping you avoid being caught off guard, but it no longer really does the latter. That's where I'm at, that's my outlook on the perk.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    People drop perks that are perfectly good just because they were nerfed all the time, it doesn't actually mean those perks are bad. You listed two of them; Adrenaline is still a top three survivor perk and Circle of Healing is still very good in its niche, neither of those are garbage perks.

    Distortion is the same way. It's still good, it just isn't overtuned anymore, so people are dropping it.

    Pickrate does not correlate one-to-one with strength in general.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    Yes, it is the best form of aura blocking, and it's definitely better than OTR.

    That's kind of contradictory to what you were saying before, where you asserted that the nerf was used to make the other forms of aura blocking competitive with Distortion.

    But now you're saying that it's not competitive at all.

    And I'm not sure it's 'definitely better' than OTR. If the killer doesn't drop chases, realistically, Distortion is going to block auras a maximum of 5 times in a match. OTR will block for 160 seconds in a match. It depends on the killer's build whether it's going to be OTR or Distortion that's better. The more aura reading the killer packs, the more likely it is that OTR is going to come out on top.

    And again: OTR does this on the side, while for Distortion, it's the entire purpose of the perk.

    It's closer to Shadow Step now

    And Shadow Step is not viable, so what does that say for Distortion?

  • CleanseThis
    CleanseThis Member Posts: 202

    To also be fair a killer perk slot is more "valuable" than a survivor perk slot. A killer would much rather have that slot open for regression or possibly aura depending on the killer than lightborn.

  • CleanseThis
    CleanseThis Member Posts: 202

    Spies, Discordance and Surveillance don't hard counter distortion because they don't reveal auras so that's moot.

    Gearhead is a niche perk. I've never heard of anyone actively having this perk be a stable in there build. I could be wrong but again I just haven't heard of it.

    Distortion does make survivors invisible. When I equip lethal and at the start of the trial no ones aura is read survivors are definitely invisible as I cannot see them. Survivors can be located normally…. Aura reading is not constant wall hacks.

    Lightborn counters no survivor perks, it counters survivor items, as well as a killer perk slot is more valuable then a survivor perk slot. Killers get 4 and survivors 16.

  • Autharia
    Autharia Member Posts: 460

    And yet killers cry about flashlights and flashbangs with a 100% counter to them cause god forbid dropping 1 perk for lightborn that also aura reads for a good long time.

  • Autharia
    Autharia Member Posts: 460
    edited October 2024

    Lightborn does counter perks also on top of items.

    Item wise there are 3 fire crackers that some still have and 6 flashlights 3 being limited time ones.

    Perk wise you have Residual manafiest, Flashbang, Champion of light, Blastmine (Stun skill happens but you se who did it and where they.)

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,443

    Distortion is not in a good spot right now. With the slight reversal of the nerf where they adjusted the numbers it's not entirely useless but it's way too unreliable and yielding way too little value to justify using a perkslot.

    Which I suppose is why it has dropped from 9-10% (which made it a popular but not omnipresent choice) to 3-ish%.

    The message from the devs is clear: Killers are supposed to have a way to read aura any time they need, offering enough perks to do so to fit any killer's playstyle. Survivors on the other hand are not supposed to be able to get away from chases or hide from the killer.

    A questionable choice, in my opinion, but it is what it is.

    Now, the other way to deal with aura read is "to play around aura read perks". However, for that you need to know which aura perk is in play (which is extremely anything-but-vets-unfriendly) — which given the myriad of aura perks is impossible at this point; there are too many potential activation conditions being met at nearly any given moment during a match. This makes it effectively impossible to "play around aura reading perks" or "adapt how you play". That is what makes it feel so miserable.

    At the absolute very least survs need to know when their aura is read and by what. (You know, like how hexes work in that regard)

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    I've been very consistent about this, it's not contradictory.

    Distortion is still the best overall, but it's now more in line with the other tools. There are reasons to consider the other two on the merits of their aura blocking now because they have niches in which they are actually better than Distortion, but those niches are more specific and restricted than Distortion. Before, Distortion was better than them at their niches, because it was flawless and had effectively 100% uptime on the aura blocking effect unless very specific conditions were met.

    All of this is in the main post, where I run down the use cases for the specific perks.

    Shadow Step is completely viable and has been since it released, it was just overshadowed by another perk covering its niche better and with no setup time.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Do you have any specific disagreements with my arguments, to lead to that conclusion?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    There are three viable ways of blocking auras in the game right now, so I think the message is more that you should have tools to help against being revealed, but none of them should be so perfect that you never have to be chased if you don't want to. It's also worth mentioning that aura blocking is just as much for making the chase you're currently in more favourable, as it is for hiding from chases outright.

    I would (and have, and am, that's what this thread is) argue Distortion is very reliable as long as you have a specific use case for it in mind. The way the game is right now, you do have to think about which auras you want to block and pick your perk accordingly, but once you do that they're all pretty reliable at it.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    If they are 'in line with', or 'comparable' on the subject of aura reading, you can't turn around and say that distortion is 'definitely better', because then it's not in line with, or comparable.

    And again, they shouldn't be! Picking up OTR as an aura blocking option should not be comparable with Distortion on that aspect alone, because OTR delivers 100% of an anti-tunnel perk.

    Distortion is supposed to be 'not comparable' to its peers, because all of its peers have a different primary function and only do Distortion's job on the side. If Distortion is comparable in aura blocking to its peers, then it means Distortion is a terrible pick, period.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    I can say that, because it is.

    "In line with" and "comparable" do not inherently always mean "equal". Distortion isn't equal, it's better, proportionally.

    It used to be so much better that there's no point in other aura blocking perks existing, either in terms of the ones we currently have or in any future aura blocking perk. Distortion was perfect, it blocked 100% of auras in most scenarios; why ever bother even considering a different perk even if it has some extra effects? If you want auras blocked, there's a flawless perk right there. OTR skated by because the anti-tunnel is just flat out more valuable than aura blocking, but Shadow Step and Sole Survivor were dead in the water. Granted, SS is just bad, but Shadow Step isn't, it was just massively outclassed by the perfect perk it was in competition with.

    Now, though, Distortion is just "very good" at blocking auras, but it has gaps. Gaps that can be covered by other perks, now, but those perks have gaps too, that Distortion would cover. Now there's more of an appropriate spread where Distortion is the best overall but lacks in certain niches, which other perks can pick up the slack for if those niches are what a specific player wants covered the most.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    why ever bother even considering a different perk even if it has some extra effects?

    Again, this is complete context blindness. You're judging it solely on this one aspect, and you're dismissing everything that goes against it, or that goes in favour of its competition. And that just kills your entire argumentation.

    OTR skated by because the anti-tunnel is just flat out more valuable than aura blocking

    But that's exactly the point! OTR has immense value outside of aura blocking, AND It has aura blocking that is now functionally comparable to Distortion's. So why on earth would you now ever want to pick a perk that ONLY does aura blocking and does nothing in any case where the killer doesn't read auras, versus a perk that grants endurance off hook AND blocks aura reading?

    OTR is usable in 100% of matches, Distortion isn't. And that also disproves that

    Distortion was perfect

    because it wasn't. It becomes an empty perk slot in a number of matches, which is a problem none of its competition had.

    but Shadow Step and Sole Survivor were dead in the water. Granted, SS is just bad, but Shadow Step isn't, it was just massively outclassed by the perfect perk it was in competition with.

    Except Shadow Step was already dying before Distortion hit the scene because Boons are terrible. The second the novelty wore off, Shadow Step went in the bin because it's just not good. It's in the same boat as Sole Survivor, just not as deep. The solution here isn't to dump Distortion in the gutter, it's to buff Shadow Step, otherwise you're just going to play whack-a-perk with whatever hits the highest pick rate.

    Except of course with OTR, because that's inconvenient to your argument.

    It's also terrible argumentation for nerfs, too. Imagine if, instead of giving Empathic Connection +20% additional healing speed, they just nerfed Botany Knowledge by dropping it to 15% so it's no longer the 'best pick'.

    Even now, judging by Nightlight, the mass exodus of Distortion users doesn't appear to be translating to an uptick in Shadow-step usage. If they're all flocking to OTR, should we gut OTR as well, to make room for Shadow Step? And when Shadow Step is the top-most picked aura reading perk by a margin of a percent, should we gut it too so Sole Survivor can enter the playpen?

    Or should we judge perks by their own merits, rather than by doing half-comparisons to side effects of other perks?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    I'm not actually ignoring context here, I'm even acknowledging that Off The Record isn't as susceptible to Distortion being perfect because it is not fundamentally an aura blocking perk. That's the one that still looked good in comparison to Distortion, I've acknowledged this multiple times. It still now has a niche that Distortion isn't quite as good in for aura blocking specifically, but that's less relevant because it occupies a separate design space too.

    What I'm saying is that only applies to OTR because OTR is the only one that has a full other niche. Shadow Step and Sole Survivor are both fundamentally aura-blocking stealth perks and they were power crept by Distortion becoming functionally infinite back in 6.1.0.

    It's also not just the current perks, the design space for aura blocking as a main component of a perk was completely filled. There could not ever be another aura blocking perk that isn't like OTR in primarily doing something else, because Distortion being the way it was meant no aura blocking effect could ever compare even in a lesser state because Distortion was the perfect aura blocking perk. That's not a good design space, it's not great for balance overall, and it warranted changing.

    That's what I mean by "perfect", to be clear. It was perfect at blocking auras, obviously it didn't do anything without aura reading in play.

    I also do not care about pick rate in either direction. I don't care how high or low the pick rate of any specific perk is, I care if they are capable of filling their role without undue obstacles— whether that's because they're actually too bad at their job to be reasonably appealing (Sole Survivor) or because they are heavily overshadowed by an overtuned perk in their same niche but with no meaningful downsides (Shadow Step). I am not saying that Distortion needed to be killed or gutted because of its high pick rate, and that's for two reasons: I am celebrating the fact that it WAS NOT killed or gutted but rather was changed in a very healthy way that preserved it being a strong and useful option, and because my complaints are based on design and not popularity. I don't care if people do swap to other perks, I care if they could or have reason to.

    It's worth mentioning that Distortion was also a little bit too strong just from a basic balance perspective, too. It wasn't the huge balance issue that some other things end up being, but it's worthy of scrutiny if something is such a fundamentally hard counter that it completely shuts down multiple different options without any downside or requirement. Just to head off any whataboutism from whoever may be reading, yes, this applies to Lightborn too.

    So, to sum up: I am judging perks by their own merits. That's how I came to the conclusion that it's good for Distortion to stop crowding out other perks' merits and operate in a healthier niche.

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,443

    Given the other posts in the discussion it does seem pretty clear you're somehow convinced by what you say and that Distortion is reliable, as is the boon. - I think neither is reliable or sufficiently useful and OTR isn't even comparable since it has a different primary function to begin with (and saying a perk dedicated to that function should still not be able to compete with a side effect of another perk… well…). So for the most part I'd say: I guess we just disagree.

    "I would (and have, and am, that's what this thread is) argue Distortion is very reliable as long as you have a specific use case for it in mind. The way the game is right now, you do have to think about which auras you want to block and pick your perk accordingly, but once you do that they're all pretty reliable at it. "

    This one though… — Please do elaborate on what exactly you mean by "you do have to think about which auras you want to block". Just run me through a scenario of the "if - then" kind to help me follow the thought process that goes into thinking about which auras I want to block.

  • ErebusSurge
    ErebusSurge Member Posts: 78

    if the role of survivor is to survive and escape you need to have conditions where that is possible and right now it isn’t.

    Between aura read at the start of the game, aura read on escaping chase, aura read on doing gens, aura read on healing, aura read on being near a kicked gen, aura read on totems, aura read on items, aura read on traps, screaming, killer addons like pigs bear trap.
    when tied together with speed boost, teleport powers, extended sub human reach for attacks, lack of terror radius, smaller maps, no loops etc.

    The game is very simply you’re going to die, but when..

    if you drop a pallet on a killer and run away they shouldn’t be able to stop at the pallet and hit you 5 meters away but they can because escaping a chase is frowned upon hence predator becoming aura reveal.

    Distortion gave people a chance and it had to. Often you’d lose all 3 tokens in the first 45 seconds so it wasn’t overpowered.

  • Eelanos
    Eelanos Member Posts: 467

    Hm… not sure. I've been getting more value out of Sole Survivor and Shadowstep than Distortion. Distortion tokens being limited to 2 feels like simultaneously keeps me at cap constantly and yet it's gone when you need it most, unless the killer is running some in-chase aura reading. Otherwise, I get a couple uses per game and that's it because any tokens earned on the last chase are gonna be wasted anyway.

    With Sole Survivor you start with nothing and gain power the worse the game gets, which is when you need it most, plus you get the gate opening speed in case hatch is not an option, so it gives you huge amounts of value on any match you're getting stomped.

    And with Boon: Shadowstep I get to prevent aura reading while I'm healing team mates which, again, is exactly when I need it most, and if I'm lucky I get to have aura reading prevention on the gen I'm repairing or no scratch marks on some good loops which will throw off killers pretty often.

    I feel like if they want to keep it like this, increasing max tokens by one or two would be ideal. Either that or create other anti-aura reading perks for specific situations instead of the more universal ones we have at the moment.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    I did already run through that in the main post, but I don't mind repeating it a little bit.

    So, generally, there are four sorts of use cases in mind here. There's preventing yourself from being revealed early, there's making certain actions safer to complete without being revealed, there's making chases less risky by blocking mid-chase auras, and there's protecting yourself while you're vulnerable.

    Distortion is still the king of stopping you from being revealed early. It stops Lethal Pursuer from activating at the start of the match, and even as late as the first hook or so, you can be safe from aura reading if the killer doesn't have Lethal. Distortion also works against something like Nowhere To Hide or even Undying, random situational auras that also let you avoid them if you know they're there.

    When it comes to making certain actions safer - generally referring to generator repair and heals here - Distortion still functions but is somewhat less reliable. That's where Shadow Step comes in, because with a little setup you can have a zone where you're safe from aura reads. Set up Shadow Step near a generator and you can be reasonably sure the killer won't snipe you with BBQ or Friends Til The End, as well as being safe from Nowhere To Hide until the killer snuffs your boon.

    Blocking mid-chase auras like I'm All Ears, Predator, and Zanshin Tactics, Distortion and Shadow Step are roughly equal, with Distortion being more reliable due to the lack of range restriction but Shadow Step having an extra effect that helps in that area. Both valid choices, both useful.

    For protecting yourself while you're vulnerable, all the perks work, but Off The Record is the best because it's the most potent when you're the most vulnerable. This is slightly cheating because OTR is already an anti-tunnel perk, but some people have legitimately expressed concern about auras leading to tunnelling after the Distortion nerf, so it's worth mentioning.

    In short: What perks are giving you trouble? When do those perks activate? Answering those two questions can help you figure out the best counter pick.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    I'm not actually ignoring context here, I'm even acknowledging that Off The Record isn't as susceptible to Distortion being perfect because it is not fundamentally an aura blocking perk.

    But this only flies for Sole Survivor, because Shadow Step DOES have a different niche on top of aura blocking.

    Shadow Step and Sole Survivor are both fundamentally aura-blocking stealth perks

    But here you're conflating stealth with aura-blocking.

    Shadow Step is a stealth perk.

    Distortion is an aura blocker.

    If Distortion gave some kind of scratch mark erasure without being contingent on blocking auras, you might have a point, but Shadow Step has a use outside of Aura Blocking, just as OTR does. It's just that OTR is a good perk while Shadow Step is a bad perk.

    and they were power crept by Distortion becoming functionally infinite back in 6.1.0.

    Shadow Step needed no one's help to find its way to the garbage bin. It was already there before 6.1 hit.

    6.1 landed in June 2022. According to Nightlight, at that point, Shadow Step had a pickrate of roughly 2.3%, and it still had that pickrate by March 2023. Distortion's change had no impact on it.

    There could not ever be another aura blocking perk that isn't like OTR in primarily doing something else, because Distortion being the way it was meant no aura blocking effect could ever compare even in a lesser statebecause Distortion was the perfect aura blocking perk. That's not a good design space, it's not great for balance overall, and it warranted changing.

    But just flat nerf-bombing it didn't fix anything, because now Distortion is headed for the garbage can and any new aura blocking perk has to abide by the same rule as Distortion: It can't block aura perks.

    You still have the same constraint: Any new aura blocking perk HAS to be worse than Distortion, otherwise Distortion is gonna be buried. It's just a more tight constriction now because Distortion is that much worse.

    If anything, OTR proved that there's plenty of room for other aura blocking perks, it's just that they have to be sideways comparable, like Empathic Connection now is to Botany Knowledge. It's why I said that current Distortion now needs a buff again by giving it some kind of non-aura blocking function to give it life in games without aura reading.

    I also do not care about pick rate in either direction.

    Bit late to say that at this point, because that is the basis for your entire argument. That is what you rode in on.

    It's worth mentioning that Distortion was also a little bit too strong just from a basic balance perspective, too.

    You have any data to back that up?

    It wasn't the huge balance issue that some other things end up being, but it's worthy of scrutiny if something is such a fundamentally hard counter that it completely shuts down multiple different options without any downside or requirement.

    It never did, unless there were four of them, and as a critical point: The things it blocks are all perks that, in and of themselves, are also extremely volatile and oppressive. The entire concept of stealth dies with aura reading. Distortion was effectively a band-aid, and in a way, that's really -good- from a design perspective.

    Because with Distortion's value being entirely dependent on the prevalence of aura reading, it basically became an indicator perk for a balancing issue. The higher the pickrate of Distortion, the higher the likelihood that aura reading is too strong or prevalent.

    So, to sum up: I am judging perks by their own merits.

    Except Distortion never hit any excess in pick or escape rate, so it didn't warrant any nerf.

    That's how I came to the conclusion that it's good for Distortion to stop crowding out other perks' merits and operate in a healthier niche.

    Except there's only one perk for which you've managed to argue that Distortion must have negatively impacted it in some way, and there's nothing to indicate that it actually did.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Alright, let's tackle those in order.

    So, we'll tackle those first two at once, which is Shadow Step and OTR having second effects. The crucial distinction here is that Shadow Step is primarily an aura block and scratch marks perk, and OTR is primarily an anti-tunnel perk. Shadow Step still had a niche for hiding scratch marks, but that alone doesn't make a complete perk- it's designed around the aura blocking being a main draw as well, and that was outclassed by Distortion having no downsides or restrictions. Shadow Step already has more downsides and restrictions than Distortion, it also being invalidated for a full half of its effects was a bad position for it to be in when it's otherwise a perfectly good perk.

    Not that I'm necessarily claiming that is The Reason To Nerf Distortion, to be clear, it's just a positive benefit from the nerf happening. The nerf almost certainly happened purely because Distortion was too effective at its job, the fact that we're in a position where all three perks have a good and viable niche now is a side effect, and a positive one.

    Next you talk about pickrate, which I'll glide past because it isn't relevant here. I don't care if people DO pick each perk equally, I care if they COULD. Design space, not popularity.

    Your next point is the "nerf-bombing" comment, but that seems to rely heavily on the assertion that Distortion is currently a bad perk, which it isn't. It has several very useful and viable niches, in which it functions pretty damn well. What we actually need from aura blocking perks, new or existing, is the same thing we need from all perks - they need some kind of restriction, downside, or narrow scope in what they effect. Something that just does the job universally with no downsides is only acceptable if the job is particularly narrow in scope, which aura blocking is not.

    Next is another pick rate comment, which I've covered. I don't care about that, it isn't part of my argument and never has been. Design space, not popularity. People already only pick a handful of perks and ignore perfectly viable ones, as a whole, and there generally isn't any fixing that, it's inevitable for games with choices to make at all.

    For Distortion being questionably balanced, no, I don't have data. I have reasons and explanations, though, which are just as important from BHVR's perspective and the only important things from our perspective as players having a debate.

    We're on a more salient point that probably should've been raised earlier with the assertion that aura reading is too oppressive, but I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Certainly if there were no tools for defending against it, the number of aura perks in the game would probably be too high even if most of the individual perks are well balanced, but there are tools to defend against it - both in the sense that you can stop your aura being read entirely, and in the sense that you can react afterwards. In the latter case, there's hiding after being revealed if you know it happened (not universally applicable, but a good few perks have tells), or just being in an undesirable position to chase. Players have options, they just still actually have to deal with their opponent's tools, which is pretty reasonable.

    Finally, for the second to last point - as I covered the final point a bit more in detail above - you're falling into the trap of assuming that stats trump all when it comes to balance changes. They don't. Something can absolutely warrant changing without hitting an excess of pickrate or escape rate, and that's happened multiple times in the past. There's so much more that goes into balancing a live service game than a linear scale of too strong or too weak.

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,443

    mhhm. - Nah, sorry to say. But I don't find your argument of Distortion being usefu compelling (the uses you outline, Lethal aside, depend, at the end of the day, on luck. You can never count on Distortion being available to you to use purposefully simply because you can't reasonably set up tokens or decide when you spend them. - If you could press the ability button and for the next X seconds your aura will be hidden if it is being read - sure, then you could actually use it in the strategic way you outline. But as is? Nope.

    The boon isn't much different. Between setting up times and you virtually never wanting to chase around a progressed gen you're actively hindering yourself and the other survivors. If it comes to blocking BBQ, Gearhead etc. it has the exact same issue as Distortion allegedly had: you won't show up for the killer as long as you're on that gen hence incentivising the killer to go after the other teammates. The boon could also allow you to just hide all game in a section of the map with a hard to spot /reach totem. — In other words: the boon has all the downsides of the "bad faith" uses of Distortion with none of the upsides. -- Not to mention you can only cover one tile with the boon - so even if you set it up for chase you won't get value from it, simply because you realistically don't gain more time from having the boon active during chase than you expend setting up the boon. - That is if you even get to use it at all. Or do you think it's at all viable to just bless every totem you plan on somewhat staying near?

    — And did you just call the aura blocking effect of OTR cheating? The necessary side effect of that perk because it usually outperforms the two perks that are supposed to have aura blocking as their main function?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Two things:

    1: I'm not sure why you're bringing up the supposed downsides of hiding all game or encouraging the killer to go after your teammates. I never brought up the former as a plus or a minus at all, and the latter is going to be true of all aura blocking. All I'm saying is that Shadow Step functions as a viable tool for hiding your aura if you want to do specific generators or complete heals in a specific part of the map without being revealed, that's all.

    2: I meant that me bringing up OTR is cheating a little bit because it already functions in this area regardless of its aura reading. There's nothing substantially wrong with the perk itself and it definitely isn't cheating to run it, if that's what you thought I meant.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 1,222

    So how did you find survivors before lethal exist? Why should you be allowed free handhold information on where survivors spawn before they get even a chance to see gen/tile/pallet layouts?

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,618

    Because the singular killer with 4 perk slots used one of those 4 to get that info?

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 1,222
    edited October 2024

    Ok and survivors who used hope or adrenaline used perk slot for perks that may not even be used cause they dont make it end game so they used a perk slot for nothing?

    Or a survivor brings a full heal build and its negated by a plague so 0 perks.

    We use a perk slot to bring distortion to block that free info and if by some chance killer has 0 aura then we wasted a perk slot.

    Killer has lightborn and I have flashbang so now I wasted a perk slot. Its the same concept.

    Post edited by buggybug on
  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    The crucial distinction here is that Shadow Step is primarily an aura block and scratch marks perk, and OTR is primarily an anti-tunnel perk. Shadow Step still had a niche for hiding scratch marks, but that alone doesn't make a complete perk

    There's multiple perks where the only benefit is hiding scratch marks, such as Dance With Me, Lucky Break and Parental Guidance. Scratch mark erasure is a full-fledged perk effect, and it is actually a good chunk of Shadow Step's value. So similar to how OTR has another benefit, and it does aura blocking on the side, Shadow Step hides scratch marks, and does aura blocking on the side. So this idea that Shadow Step is somehow much more of an aura blocking perk than OTR is not really true.

    Next you talk about pickrate, which I'll glide past because it isn't relevant here. I don't care if people DO pick each perk equally, I care if they COULD. Design space, not popularity.

    But how are you going to make any kind of argument about whether someone -could- pick another perk if you refuse to look at whether they did, or why they made the choices they made?

    You skip past everything to immediately declare Distortion the problem when the pick rates suggest that

    A) It is entirely possible to have other aura reading perks that are viable and able to compete with it, since OTR matched its pick rate

    and

    B) There is no correlation between the buff or pickrate of Distortion and the pickrate of Shadow Step.

    Point A suggests that Distortion is not oppressive in that regard, and point B says there's no evidence to suggest that Distortion was the cause of Shadow Step's poor performance.

    If your argument is about whether someone -could- pick a perk, then your argument is ultimately about pick-rate. Because barring emergency disables due to bugs, every perk -can- be picked. Even Weaving Spiders and No Mither -could- be picked!

    What we actuallyneed from aura blocking perks, new or existing, is the same thing we need from all perks - they need some kind of restriction, downside, or narrow scope in what they effect. Something that just does the job universally with no downsides is only acceptable if the job is particularly narrow in scope, which aura blocking is not.

    Who says it isn't?

    Reminder that Botany Knowledge exists, which is an entirely unconditional perk that simply gives a fat boost to altruistic healing speed. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's zero chance you're going to get through a regular match without having a use for healing speed, but there's a very real chance you get through a game without ever having your aura read because the system isn't basekit and is dependent on the killer's loadout.

    I think we can all agree that Botany Knowledge is not a problem perk, and we can also all agree that healing is much wider in scope than aura blocking. So why would this argument fly for Distortion?

    People already only pick a handful of perks and ignore perfectly viable ones

    A large chunk of survivor perks aren't viable, specifically because they are being buried under restrictions, downsides and narrow scope.

    For Distortion being questionably balanced, no, I don't have data. I have reasons and explanations, though, which are just as important from BHVR's perspective and the only important things from our perspective as players having a debate.

    I think the data is quite important too, so you don't end up nerfing underperforming options without cause. But also, these 'reasons and explanations' are really only accepted from one particular group, aren't they?

    We're on a more salient point that probably should've been raised earlier with the assertion that aura reading is too oppressive, but I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Certainly if there were no tools for defending against it, the number of aura perks in the game would probably be too high even if most of the individual perks are well balanced, but there are tools to defend against it - both in the sense that you can stop your aura being read entirely, and in the sense that you can react afterwards. In the latter case, there's hiding after being revealed if you know it happened (not universally applicable, but a good few perks have tells), or just being in an undesirable position to chase. Players have options, they just still actually have to deal with their opponent's tools, which is pretty reasonable.

    Similarly, killers could be expected to locate survivors by ordinary means, such as crows, sound, and game sense. So it's not like Distortion was somehow impossible to circumvent. In reality, all Distortion did was reset the playing field. Which was necessary, because aura reading crept up and began to eliminate the possibility of hiding from the game. NTH is probably one of the worst offenders, as it kind of spells out in the title.

    Finally, for the second to last point - as I covered the final point a bit more in detail above - you're falling into the trap of assuming that stats trump all when it comes to balance changes. They don't. Something can absolutely warrant changing without hitting an excess of pickrate or escape rate, and that's happened multiple times in the past. There's so much more that goes into balancing a live service game than a linear scale of too strong or too weak.

    But this is kind of where 'one particular group' comes into play. There's a power creep of aura reading, it's axing an entire aspect of gameplay, then a perk that is designed specifically to counter that and to re-enable that aspect of gameplay comes into full swing, it does not get an excessive pick or win rate, it just exists…

    But the 'reasons and explanations' from one particular group are enough to kneecap the counterweight.

    Distortion's nerf was unreasonable. There would have been many other ways to deal with it, this was one of the worst. The perk is not in a good state at the moment.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,618

    For those first 2 yup and do you know why? The first wasn't countered by a single perk. That first one was for whatever reason the survivor in question didn't make it to end game.

    That second one is countered by a very specific power. Said power turns healing into its own game of "pick your poison". Anything related to healing on both sides plays by changes in rules (admittedly more towards survivors).

    For that 3rd there's more of a point but that's the same gamble killers run in the vein of killer runs lightborn and survivors don't even try to blind then it's wasted. You also get the info that the killer isn't running aura just like killer doesn't have to fear blinds.

    And lastly all we did was answer the single question you asked. Where'd this all come from?

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,564

    Okay, so, couple things I want to clarify. These aren't necessarily tied one to one with the order of your points, but I'll still number them for ease of reading.

    1: First, the pickrate issue. So, there are a hundred things that go into a perk's pickrate which aren't necessarily the perk's strength or design space, and plenty of good perks don't get picked for a variety of reasons. These aren't always even the perk's restrictions- sometimes perks are less played because they're part of less popular chapters and fewer people actually own them, or because they started out bad and never lost the reputation.

    What I want here, what I'm saying is good in this specific scenario, is for a player who isn't being swayed by any external influences to look at the available perks and have good reason to potentially pick any of them, depending on what exactly they want. That doesn't mean an equal number of players will pick different perks, one is probably going to end up picked more often because players love to optimise and follow trends (and separately most players aren't actually interested in crafting builds + evaluating perks neutrally, they just slap on whatever seems strongest), but that each perk could be used.

    There are two things that might stand in the way of a perk fitting this criteria, and it's lucky we're talking about aura blocking because both of them have applied in the past. The first is the perk just flat out not being good enough to warrant picking over its competition. For aura blocking, that's Sole Survivor. That perk does see some use, there are people in this thread arguing in favour of it, but it's just fundamentally less accessible and impactful than the competition.

    The second reason is if the perk itself is fine, but it's heavily outclassed by something that does too much. That's where Shadow Step was, and why Off The Record was never picked for its aura blocking effects. Now that Distortion is no longer flawless, they all - except for Sole Survivor - have viable niches. Before, you'd only be evaluating them on their secondary effects because Distortion made their aura blocking obsolete, and that's why a lot of people think Shadow Step is bad when it really isn't.

    One of those niches is probably going to be the most popular one. Right now, it's probably going to be OTR, assuming the drama doesn't pass and everyone just quietly puts Distortion back into their builds. That's fine. As long as an unbiased player can look at all the perks and think "yeah, I could use any of these depending on my build", that's a perfectly acceptable spot. Pickrate has absolutely nothing to do with this because pickrate does not inherently reflect the situation I'm talking about.

    2: Next I want to talk about Botany Knowledge, because it's a reasonably good example of what I'm talking about in this regard!

    So, what does Botany do? Fundamentally, it exists to increase your healing speed. That's pretty broad, so are there any restrictions and conditions that go on this effect?

    Yes! There's objectively one, and I'd argue there's sort of a second.

    The first, objective restriction is that it decreases your efficiency on medkits. This is a meaningful downside that exists to stop the perk from getting out of hand, which is especially true when we remember that it was given this restriction while medkits themselves were massively overtuned, and Botany itself increased your efficiency on medkits. That's a restriction and condition that goes on the broad effect.

    The second one, the more arguable one, is the percentage of healing speed. 50% is high, but it's not the highest in the game- and the highest healing speeds in the game right now go on perks with more restrictions and conditions, like We'll Make It and Circle of Healing. We can see from this that limiting the effectiveness of the perk is a form of condition and restriction that can be used to balance something broad. This is easier to see in something percentage based like Botany, but Distortion's stacks actually being meaningful now is another example of that.

    Don't get me wrong, Botany Knowledge is not restricted by very much and that's why it's one of the best survivor perks in the game, but your example of an unrestricted, unconditional effect actually does have restrictions and conditions.

    3: I suppose the last thing I should mention is to repeat that the supposed power creep of aura reading is not axing stealth as a tactic, because there are tools that counter it.

    It's also worth mentioning that aura reading isn't thaaaaaaat popular? The last official stats we got from February only have two aura reading perks in the top ten, both of which Distortion comfortably counter and one of which you don't even need to use tokens on once you know it's in place - that being Lethal Pursuer and BBQ and Chili. While we shouldn't be citing Nightlight with the same weight as the official stats, looking over there just adds Nowhere To Hide into the top ten, which once again is a perk that Distortion can counter + you can start countering without using tokens once you know about it. That perk is a little overtuned, though, nerfing that would be entirely appropriate.

    There's always a risk you'll run into other perks, of course, you might get caught out by any number of things you decided not to build against - I always seem to run into hex builds only when I take off my totem perks, personally - but it's hardly an overbearing and oppressive presence in every single match.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 5,472

    1: First, the pickrate issue.

    Just gonna snip the quote for brevity and because I can't be bothered with whatever the forums are doing with formatting these days. Quote-pasting has been a mess lately.

    Anyway, I understand that you don't want to cling too heavily to pickrates and that's fine, you are right in saying that these are far more complex than a simple figure. But when you want to come in and argue that an unbiased player needs to be able to compare these options and reasonably consider either one, the pickrate does come into play here. Because the issue you are presenting here should logically resolve into extremely lopsided pick rates.

    If we do not have such data, then the problem you run into is that… It's just wild conjecture.

    So when you posit the theory that Shadow Step is not getting picked because Distortion is that high, and others posit that it's not getting picked because it's just plain bad, well…

    Considering its pickrate was dumpstered at a time where Distortion was worse than it is now, after the nerf, my money's on theory B.

    2: Next I want to talk about Botany Knowledge

    But then you get into the issue of what you consider to be a restriction. Because to my mind, there's something that both Shadow Step and OTR have over Distortion that makes the both of them less restrictive than Distortion, and that's that both of them are always going to be functional.

    Distortion already had a heavy drawback/restriction in that it could not fire without aura reading being present. If the killer didn't bring any, the perk is dead. That's another reason I think that Distortion did not warrant any nerf, it's a gamble the survivors take, and its competition, even if two of those three options are terrible, do not share this drawback.

    That also leaves plenty of design space to make other perks that grant additional benefits -on top of- blocking aura reading, which could easily have become competitive with Distortion. But now any perk that tries to do such a thing must ensure its aura blocking is considerably worse than Distortion, which is now much harder to achieve considering Distortion's lowered limits.

    3: I suppose the last thing I should mention is to repeat that the supposed power creep of aura reading is notaxing stealth as a tactic, because there are tools that counter it.

    However, the tools we have are OTR (Blocks for a total of 160 seconds max), Distortion (Likely only blocks 5 instances), and Shadow Step (Heavy investment, inert, internally incompetent since hiding your aura indirectly also tells the killer where you are). These aren't strong picks, but without them, there's huge risk involved with attempting to play on stealth. You can't take safe paths, because those are predictable, so you're more likely to end up in dangerous spots. This is a gamble, and one that has a bad cost if it doesn't pan out.

    Which would be fine, if an NTH or FoR pop wouldn't effectively give the killer a free hit.

    The balance of this tactic is off when the killer can turn it to his advantage as a piggyback effect of normal gameplay. (And that's not mentioning the horrid design decision to buff Dance With Me and similar chase-breaker stealth perks and then making Predator eliminate those exact perks the very next patch)

    It's also worth mentioning that aura reading isn't thaaaaaaat popular?

    Which would exacerbate Distortion's flaw. It just gives more reason to pick something that is more consistently useful overall.

    I just don't agree with this assertion that people would look at Distortion and Shadow Step, side by side, and consider Shadow Step a wasted slot because of Distortion. I think a far more likely scenario is that they use both, come to the conclusion that Distortion often doesn't pull any weight because there's no aura reading, but then they come to the conclusion that Shadow Step also isn't pulling any weight anyway.

    I legitimately tried to use that thing, and I had to give it up because it was just not doing enough. It's basically in the same class as my Dumpster Diver David build ("My kingdom for a shirt!"): It's funny, but it ain't winning you any matches. Granted, I didn't pick up Distortion either, but the reason I dropped Shadow Step had nothing to do with Distortion. So I don't agree with the assertion that Distortion was an obstruction in design space.