New sadoka playstyle

it is issue with sadako's current design. It is funny how people told me in Sadako PTB that this version of Sadako would be skillful and less spammy. Oh, Pikachu, they figure out that the best way to play Sadako is to spam televisions TP because 0 downside or opportunity cost to doing so.

after that, the dev hilarious put cooldown on TV TP condemn spam and than remove it and only later does everyone FINALLY realize what i was talking about. Please make Sadako more skillful and auto-pilot.

if 4 survivor wait on 4 seperate tv's and she tp to one of the TV's, you get anywhere between 4/7 or 5/7 shutdown tv's at the start of the game. i agree that sadako is all about survivoring sucking at the game now. the strategy only works vs bad players.

This playstile extremly boring and only really effective if you are on a double floor map or the survivors have no clue about her power. Against survivors, who understand what to do, you have no power.

Funny enough I just got out of a game with a Sadako like this on Hawkins. We got absolutely destroyed and could barely even retrieve any tapes. One of our teammates never did manage to retrieve one at all and was out of the game at 4 gens left. At that point the game was just over. I don't know if this is OP or not but it was definitely boring to face. I literally never get Sadako when playing survivor so I wasn't even aware this strategy existed. It was a P100 Sadako with 6400 hours so they clearly knew what they were doing. I would assume it's so effective because most people simply don't expect it.

Hard disagree. I don't think us discussing Sadako leads anywhere at this point. You will not convince me due to my thousands of hours of experience I have on her and I will not convince you anytime soon either.

Agree to disagree.

He refers to double floor maps like Midwitch, (Hawkins), Verna map and Gideons, but I don’t agree with him. While it is true, that she is a lot stronger there, she is still weak there and only strong if survivors ignore her power.

They should have never reworked her. It was not necessary at all. She just needs some QOL and a few small buffs. She never needed the 2.0 or 3.0 rework. To be fair nobody at that time asked for her to be completely reworked.

In what way different?

Ring drawing and iri tape needed to change and buffs had to happen to compensate. A rework, especially the one they came up with, was not necessary. Agree.

Just for old times sake: #bringbackSadako

Sadako 2.0 was a spam fest. Survivors could not escape condemned

i am going to stop you right there. Survivor could stop condemn. they stopped condemn by holding tape for long enough to escape. overall, you had about 3 lives or 3 hits before sadako could condemn you. She wasn't able to spam teleports because there was a cooldown to teleporting. teleporting wasn't about teleporting to every TV every second it was on. it was about concise teleporting to break tapes off survivors hand. 3.0 Sadako is about spamming.

Sadako could not interrupt tapes, which deleted any form of strategic gameplay. She got notably stronger, but lost the uniqueness that her strategic gameplay provided.

She had 2 ways to interrupt tapes. teleporting to a television and m1 a survivor to break tape. Her strategical gameplay was memoring survivor's taking tapes out of a TV and triangulating the survivor from getting their tape into a TV. The new Sadako doesn't have strategy because tapes are pure counter with no downside. the strategy is only for survivor. not for the killer.

I am not going listen to anymore non-sense.

I do. I stated my points oon her multiple times.

I am not asking you to state your points. i am asking you follow conversion on @trapners. to summarize his post says that the most effective way to gain condemn stacks is to teleport to televisions repetitively. i am asking you why you believe that this version of Sadako that spams TV teleport clicks for condemn repetitively is more skillful than 2.0 version of sadako that in my opinion required more planning, more decision making for where to teleport to apply pressure and more macro understanding of tv televisions logic(with old iri tape).

my thoughts 2.0 sadako is that the mechanics she had were healthy mechanics but the numerical balance of each of her condemn build-up actions was too high and the TV turning off mechanic made it too difficult for survivors to grab tapes. this led to her power being too reliable at getting condemn kills and survivors not having enough counter-play. the 3.0 version over stretched her kit in other direction where survivor now have too much counter-play, too much control over her power and she lacks play making potencial in her kit. GroßusSchmiedus talks about this in his post where he states that Sadako requires the opponent to not use tapes at all for her to gain condemn kills.

How did someone escape getting condemned, when not holding a tape?

when tape breaks, you grab another tape. as i said, previous version only gave very little leeway for mistakes. the counter-play between both versions is still same. the difference in this one is that survivor has all control and their purpose of taking a tape out of tv is to shutdown tv for 70 second to prevent the teleport spam.

Current sadakos tapes have one form of threat. This being ring drawing. In that regard, I do agree. An addon should not be required. This just leads back to the problems her first iteration had. Therefore my suggestions for changes.

It gives 1 condemn stack for holding tape for 1 whole hook which is quite time investment compare to teleporting spamming tv's. survivors can insert tapes into tv to remove 3 whole stacks….. which is 3x amount that ring drawing generates. the time spent to lock-in stacks will bring survivor to death hook by the time they do anything. add-on has no impact to strategy described @trapners post or Gro's reply.

Condemning WAS about constantly using tp when possible. I think you missed something there.

not necessary. the current iteration is about teleporting when possible because once tv shutdown by survivor grabing a tape, you build no condemn so as long every tv is always closest and you tp to it exactly when it opens. it will keep its shorter cooldown and possibly build condemn.

old iteration was about tactical moving around map and getting m1 hits. It is just that condemn was so aggressively tuned that teleporting to tv's aggressively also build condemn. dev modified that gameplay to this gameplay… of pressing teleport on TV's which any player can do. I find it disheartening.

I’m not a fan of global condemned or all TV condemned.

1. Any form of map wide condemned makes her teleport useless since the interaction for disabling condemned and turning off TVs is the same.

2. It is extremely annoying to play against and only encourages tp spamming over actually chasing or interacting with survivors.

That’s why I want 1.0 with buffs.

I see what you're saying, and I wouldn't necessarily be against that either. Though I personally think I would prefer the 3.0 version with a weaker global condemn and a direct teleport bonus because that does mean survivors do still have to interact with tapes, but there is more thinking involved all round.

Fundamentally she is still an m1 killer, and her condemn is her slowdown mechanism. If you have condemn solely with only direct TPs and holding tapes it means that ignoring her TVs and cranking gens with your items is usually better. After all, why would I volunteer for a guaranteed condemn stack every 30 seconds by holding a tape and losing use of my item, when I can instead force Sadako to commit to me, or only get a 1 stack every 45s she TPs to me? Her 1.0 version was quite weak unless you took very specific add-ons and benefitted tunnelling/slugged 1 player constantly.

With the revised 3.0 version, there is a passive build up of condemn in play still, but actual direct predictive and purposeful TPs are more effective, and an active decision for survivors about when they want to grab the tape. Paying attention to the HUD and shutting down a TV at the opportune time would be more rewarding than where it currently is of always grab tape whenever possible. However also ignoring the global build up and grabbing a tape when you can complete an objective for a quick delivery might be more preferable.

Sadako in this form still also has more choices to make, she can chase survivors at loops, but has to be demanifested to TP, so constantly has to assess which gens are important, and guess what survivors are doing to decide if she should close out chase, or pressure TVs that aren't shut off. Her ability to spread a limited condemn allows her to maintain pressure on all survivors, so It's a more thinking version all around that builds up pressure to breaking point, rather than try and condemn out 1 player as fast as possible.

At least that's how I see it.

Id be curious, what would happen if @GeneralV would get his wish and old Freddy returned. Would he get the same feedback because Freddy might feel undertuned? Hed be as grateful as I was and still am. Thats for sure.

It would be a surprise, now that we know he is not coming back.

But I don't think people would mistakenly dismiss him as a weak killer this time. I think people eventually understood the power of having 50% slowdown at base-kit and almost unlimited aura-reading, but by the time they did so it was already too late. The community would come up with creative ways to play him, I'm sure.

And yes, I'd very, very grateful and happy. Unfortunately, it seems this idea will always be… well, an idea. I only hope his upcoming rework is somehow good.

I can absolutely get behind that.

The condemn being map wide deleted any form of condemnation and TP - Mindgames mid chase.

ok let us ask a different question. what about this version makes the killer more about tp or mindgames? here is defence. First of all, TP is not a mindgame. it is knowledge check and current iteration shows auras of TV's. so running people into TVs for outdoor maps is very hard if not nearly impossible in most contexts because if everyone grabbing tapes, half of tv's are turned off.

after that, we have to consider whether the killer is teleporting for tactic position advantage or not. this version does not encourage chasing any survivors because the time investment is not good for condemn build-up. this version of sadako encourages teleporting and than immediate eyeing next television and teleport to every single tv on the map. the tv are super impractical and encourage staying 1 spot like old iteration of 3 gen with the killer. there is lack of incentive to chase because rewards for chasing are poor and do not build condemn unlike previous version that rewarding chasing by breaking tape.

i have read your suggestions and my feedback towards said suggestions is that… it doesn't fix problem. the 2.0 version was the solution to her kits flaws. 3.0 version is further away than ever.

I WANT the version that is about tactical movement. It's literally what I'm on about the entire time. 2.0 was not that. Not by a long shot

the current sadako is opposite of tactical movement. the 2.0 version allowed sadako to teleport to near TV than use her stealth which admitly is not great but nevertheless sneak on survivors that she suspect are in a particular area and if successful in getting a hit, gain a reward for the play.

killer actions to some degree have to matter. you sometimes question whether BVHR is making a single player game and treating the killer player like some AI.

even if we go into premise of what is suppose to be positive about rework, the rework was at very least could have reworked her flicker invisibility gameplay to provide meaningful 50/50 gameplay for killer to win chases. they try to buff a her stealth invisibility only to not buff at all, in fact weaken it instead of reworking invisibility to give a decent sizable invisibility when de-cloaking(manifesting)… say 1.25 or 1.5 second invisibility while putting current flickers into base invisibility. BVHR couldn't do that part correctly. Instead we have lower invisibility than previously.

Lastly to talk about one of your changes,

Bloody fingernails partially basekit —> addon nerfed accordingly

this change already occur. after sadako was released post changes, one of the changes was her television speed boost being increased from 0.5 →1 second. your changes is like laundry list of QOL life changes when the killer design is working and is in a good spot. Sadako is far from in a good spot and needs more than QOL changes.

I find it disheartening how you cannot see the strategic aspect in current sadako returning from her OG version.

There is nothing strategic about pressing television teleport's over and over until a condemn meter automatics fills.

I'm sorry, but I think you just don't want to see it at this point.

Discussing this further seems pointless to me. Sorry.

The first sentence told me more than everything. It's exhausting trying to convince someone that does not want to be convinced.

Agree to disagree.

i always thought the mindgames are suppose occur within the chase and the interception point between sadako catching the survivor attempting to insert the tape.

i am unable to be convinced if you are unable give valid points.

I will interject and say 2.0 was much more brainless spammy than 3.0... in regards to the fact that, yes it did have a 10s cooldown, but once you got the ball rolling on 2.0 you always used your TP whenever it was up no matter what, but you can't do that on 3.0 to anywhere near the same effect.

2.0 Sadako

As a lower level survivor you were always fighting for tapes once you lost yours; you couldn't grab one from an off TV, and you couldn't insert into an off TV either. If ever a couple of people got injured, you both don't have a tape and are now scrambling to get one.

Once in this position Sadako now just keeps teleporting, never letting you grab a tape. 10s cooldown is faster than you can run between TVs, and even if you find it, Sadako knows you don't have one and is looking to keep every TV off, so is a good chance you're gonna run straight into her teleporting on you.

If you're high in condemn by the time you get a tape, you can't not deliver it... you have to get your condemn down because of gaining condemn if Sadako hits you. However once you give up your tape, the TV you inserted into is now off as well and your codemn is only halved, so you now need another tape to protect you from the global condemn... but you've just turned off 2 TVs for 70s, and Sadako is jumping between the others, so you're still building condemn... you basically need to reach 3 powered TVs uninterrupted to deal with high condemn. If 2 players are in this situation, there simply aren't enough TVs to go around.

Sadako knows all this, so she literally just keeps doing hit and run/TPing around the map every time it's up once she knocks a tape out of someone's hand.

Now in 2.0, there is the caveat that she needs to hit an m1 to knock tapes out of hands, and she has all the problems she had before… she's an m1 killer... and has no direct chase power. So this setup above makes her very dangerous and oppressive at lower levels... but at high level where players really make it hard to get that m1 hit, she basically has no power.

3.0 Sadako

Sadako now will have TVs being turned off by survivors to prevent her from TPing to them and block the TV from condemning them, but the tape no longer protects them itself, and the major play point this time is the condemn lock in mechanic.

This forces Sadako to try and keep TVs coming on her terms not the survivors. Once survivors have a tape, they cannot grab another one, so this combines together into making Sadako need to stall the game as much as possible to allow her to gain the control of her TVs.

She can teleport at will and can spam teleports, this is especially agregious in small 2 floor maps like the Game and Midwich, but on normal maps the survivors are turning the TVs off or sitting outside a TV radius, so the spam is not achieving anything a lot of the time.

Her condemn is a slowdown mechanism, in the form survivors have to get rid of their tape in a far off TV in order to be able to grab another one and turn off a TV next to a gen they need. This is what makes Ring Drawing such a good add-on, it gives you something to apply condemn back on survivors for grabbing your tapes.

Now granted managing condemn is not especially hard to do for Survivor... and is much harder for Sadako to capitalise on... but initially there was no cap on the condemn lock in mechanic, and she was initially praised in this setup, since that fixed all her pain points. She had a reason to hook, and a reason to commit to chase and down. She also had reason to try and push survivors into her TVs and TP to get more condemn, and this was the mind game of baiting/cancelling a demanifest... The survivor even could eat a hit and make a break to deliver their tape if she got greedy (1s insert time). This was all good stuff.

Then that was hit by a cap... this is where this power went a little sideways, as when it just locked in whatever condemn you were at, condemn was a legitimate threat. Alas the cap kinda neutered it; it's kinda dangerous if you get locked in at 3 stacks, but not really... and any more condemn than that is an absolute waste, so you need to good at counting, which is annoying.

Anyway the point is 3.0 CAN spam but it is often not rewarded, same as pushing survivors into TVs isn't rewarding unless you're REALLY good at counting the condemn on survivors.

Overall

3.0 is garnered more around the macro of her tapes, it works as a slowdown mechanic, and requires using timing and keeping a mind on which TVs are in what state, rather that 2.0s score a hit or 2 and then spam TP as fast as possible to all nearby TVs and hard rush condemn someone out of the game.

It's also why I prefer 3.0 over 1.0 personally, because 3.0 Sadako is more about a slow squeeze on all survivors rather than hyper focusing one (though full disclosure I didn't get much chance to play 1.0 Sadako before 2.0 came in, I was still learning other killers).

3.0 definitely has some remaining pain points, but I think 3.0 is closest to the finished product of any of the iterations thus far. This is why I want the changes I suggest for Sadako 3.0.

A weaker global condemn, better direct TP condemn, and a passive for tapes I think makes this all better, her cap for condemn isn't so naff if the condemn build up is more consistent, and the macro round TVs is far more engaging than "grab tape when can".

It needs a little more polish, but it's almost there, and I think it's far easier to correct this version than the others.

Of course! Nobody is going to execute you for anything XD

Sure, why not?

You have to memorize enough with her already. This would make her easier to learn in my opinion. I just dont see it being implemented, because: "it incentivizes tunneling…"

Unpopular opinion but i kinda miss Sadoka Magica 2.0....her demanding you play around condemn was a nice break from the monotony of slamming gens. Not quite as fun or balanced as Cenobite and Xenomorph but a nice change regardless. Sure, my teammates would get themselves morid for no reason but oh well.

3.0 just seems to be a spammy teleporter m1 killer. I'm grateful she pulls people away from Wraith but meh

yes you can. if survivors ignore tapes, you manually apply global condemn to the map.

That's the same in 2.0 though. If survivors ignore tapes then you keep spamming whenever you have TP up, and now once they have a tape getting caught causes the snowball faster, because removing condemn is harder on 2.0 once the train starts rolling.

At lower levels of the game, survivor are ineffective at looping meaning they'll grab a tape and get hit 10 second later.

Yes... but it's not how played out in practise... it was usually hit and run, and then spam TP and let survivors fight over tapes....

I think this aspect of her gameplay could been adjusted where grabing new tape is easier. still, grabbing new tape was not impossible. just more difficult

That was the problem, it was more difficult to get a tape, especially in SoloQ and for newer players. The longer you took to get one, the worse problem gets because Sadako is spamming TP every 10s. There was effectively no skill for Sadako at lower level, because you just hit and run and put the survivors on a mori clock that is far more in her favour if she gets it going, but does literally nothing if she can't get her first hit. Once you have 2 tapes off survivors the feedback loop starts on its own, survivors start competing for TVs.

There was little to be done at high level because until you get an m1 you have no power... so where exactly is this skill expression? If you can only get 1 tape off a survivor, you have to just follow them around not letting them get a tape and you try and take another tape somewhere if you can.

All of this makes Sadako 2.0 very one note and predictable... I'm interested to hear this idea to make it easier to grab a tape... because any solution I can think of breaks everything and she either has no power, or it remains mondo brain dead at mori clocking survivors who can't loop very well...

statistically, there is 4x as many survivors as killer. it is always on survivors terms to pick-up tape and never on killer term. for example if all 4 survivor wait for TV's to turn on, suppose you teleport to 1 tv that survivor was near, the 3/4 will take tape out of the TV. So TV teleporting is always survivor terms and never on killer terms.

//...

Suppose Sadako spawns in K symbol and teleport to survivor 4 or walks there and finds survivor 4 before he takes tape. Survivor 1 , 2 and 3 can grab tapes. Let's say survivors agree to spilit up and do gens 1 and 2. they can take a tape from tv 1 and 2 and go to top-left generators.they can do generator and grab tapes while turning televisions off which allows him to hit 2 birds with 1 stone.

This seems a little loaded, and is a scenario that can only realistically happens at the start of the game, and aasumes that Sadako uses none of her TPs at the start. I do think her TVs should turn on sooner in the trial to further reduce this problem. However, Survivors usually start in and around the same area, so they can't possibly turn off 4 TVs immediately.

The simple way this works for Sadako is even if she follows a basic 2 TP rule to turn off a TV and then TPs to where she's actually going. If you use this rule of 2 on TPs you'll keep control of majority of your TVs. On 3.0 if the TV is turned off when the survivor delivers the tape, it doesn't become a 70s cooldown, it stays at 45s. Sadako can easily keep control of her TVs so long as she keeps using them.

The other thing you're ignoring, is if every survivor is trying to this, they are wasting time walking across maps to deliver tapes while they have no condemn. It takes what... 20s? To run across the map to deliver a far tape? Well the first TV is down to 50s... about the same time it takes for the TV to turn on for Sadako herself... and survivors haven't been doing gens this whole time....

This is the rhythm of 3.0, the more time survivors spend dealing with tapes, the less time they spend on gens, so Sadako's goal is to try and engage as many people with her TP as possible at all times to burn resources and keeps survivors screwing around with tapes.

This is very different from actual slowdown such as Hex:plaything and Hex:penti where suppose a survivor gets hooked, a hex is formed and than survivor has to find hex, cleanse hex which takes 15 seconds, not 1 second and then return back to the gen. they have to make two trips back, spend 15 second cleanse totem, the totem can be re-lit by killer forcing survivor to spend more time on totems. The comparison that Sadako's ability is slowdown is a joke.

This is why a build like Sloppy Butcher, Hex: Face the Darkness, Plaything and Penti is a good build on her. You overload the survivors with side quests. Again, you can't grab a tape until you deliver one, and every second spent dealing with heals, dealing with Plaything, dealing with Penti, all while getting screams interrupting/revealing everything, and running across the map to deal with this building up condemn the whole time, it is something that Sadako can pick as and when to continue to squeeze condemn or commit to chase, and if you get a 3 condemn lock in on this setup, your laughing.

I could keep going with the quote war, but at a certain point it stops being constructive. So to conclude:

2.0 was unbelievably oppressive and mind numbingly easy at low levels. Low level players are players too and this power was incredibly punishing for weaker loopers… which might be excusable if she was good high level... but she was not, she got flattened at high level, so nobody wins. She was a pub stomp one trick, that once she got figured out, has basically nothing. This happens in a lot of games and is very unhealthy. It's the same thing as Tombstone Piece Myers; one gameplan that if he can't get it off, he sucks.

3.0 is a slow burn power, both sides play constantly around this side quest. Is Sadako too weak in this version? Yes. She needs buffs, but is it awfully designed and she has literally nothing she can do? No.

3.0 has the same state as Pig, where she is a macro snowball killer, where if a survivor ignores or doesn't respect her power, they can easily throw a game. Sadako and Pig have the same thing going where their mori threat allows them force survivors into non-optimal situations and slow the game down, and is always poking/looking out for that moment where someone cracks. If you play a high level team that perfectly plays around your slowdown mechanic, you will struggle to get your power/snowball going, but the threat is always there.

I get the impression, you don't like this playstyle... you want a high lethality killer, and that is fine... there are plenty of highly lethal killers that can kill a player quickly to choose from.

However I'm in the camp that prefers the more tactile and macro based killers, the killers where I can keep multiple survivors engaged at once and force them to make difficult choices. I prefer killer where I can catch a player out who hasn't worked out what I'm trying to do, rather than ones where I straight bully someone out of the game.

This is why I suggest a 3.0 condemn change of say:

• 0.5 condemn within 16m of a powered TV.
• +0.5 condemn within 16m of the TV Sadako teleports to (maybe 0.75?)
• ~40 condemn per second for holding tapes.

Please explain why this doesn't address those issues? Condemn is always building, and the trade off is you control Sadako's ability to interrupt you on a gen. It makes sense for survivors to partner up to minimise condemn build up in this scenario.

This is far better than the 2.0 version, which you keep advocating for, but aren't addressing the problems I bring up...

I'm happy to hear your revisions for 2.0, but just saying 2.0 is better, which can only even be argued as possibly true in the very thin band where survivors are good enough to not get steam rolled, but not good enough that Sadako gets completely minced... is not helpful.

Why don't these changes work with 3.0? What changes would work with 2.0?

Cause as it stands you're gonna really struggle to convince me that skill is born from landing a single m1 then spamming TP every 10s to mori a player, and it's the speed at which you do so that determines whether you win or lose.