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Why 60% kill rate and not 55%?
The stats show 2v8 had a 45% escape rate for the two most played classes and it felt much better for survivors. You rarely saw the level of dc'ing and giving up as in 1v4 because survivors could actually make a comeback. The matches also never felt over within the first 2 minutes like it so often does in 1v4. This is why so many survivors are asking for 2v8 to come back and want it to be permanent.
My point is if the devs want killer to be the power role, why such a massive advantage with the arbitrary 60/40 number. 55/45 arguably feels much better for both sides, not only for survivors but also for killers because with the 60% kill rate the games feel too easy for killer much of the time.
Comments
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Do you think Unknown is an overpowered killer? They balanced him for 60% and normally people think he's one of the best balanced killers in the game, whose killrate was 64% with 10% pickrate as of april 2024.
EDIT: just in case, he has received a nerf ever since and it's been a while and people adapted to him.even though devs said that they didnt feel the need to update us on KRs because they havent changed much, it's safe to assume unknown's killrate dropped a little bit from that time.
Post edited by Toystory3Monkey on7 -
People didn’t give up because it was a fun new game mode. And also they literally couldn’t give up when on first “hook” because they removed that option.
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Nurse generally has the lowest kill rate. That doesn't necessarily mean that the best killer in the game needs buffs.
Many, many of the buffs over the past couple years have been base kit for killers: bloodlust buffs, maps are smaller, pallets and tilres are weaker, more dead zones, minor reworks to buff most killers' kits (with more on the road map every time), sweeping perk buffs to information, chase, utility, and more. They buffed pig for crying out loud.
People don't generally want to acknowledge these buffs because they want more. People want to focus on regression being nerfed because that's the only category that they care about, and basically everything else has been buffed. Most seem to want all the current buffs and go back to cobruption meta.
But the game is starting to fray because it's based on this 60% kill rate. It's too high for the game to be healthy, and seemingly arbitrary. But when you have killers in the roster who are winning twice as much as the survivors they face, the devs are taking drastic measures to fix that, which people seem to hate also.
55% is likely a more healthy number to aim for, and since we passed that point, the devs should have data to see that also.
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the point is that unknown was balanced with 60% KR mentality and he is just slightly above that expected killrate.
so is he, a prime example of such balance mentality, a killer that doesnt deserve his strength?
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Its simple, they want killer to be baby mode easy and solo survivor to be terrible.
That's why.
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This is a false argument because those long waits were before they added a bp bonus. Right now killer has a much longer wait most of the day, in EU survivor is at 150% bp bonus most of the day. Solo Q is practically unplayable with how killer sided the game has become.
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yes, we all know. if people are used to playing killer they will win in most games, over the last few months I've seen frustrated posts from survivor players especially soloq, but they probably don't care because a 60% kill rate is fair to them. at this point screaming for survivor balance is the same as talking to a wall.
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that is only true if you assume that BP incentive system works around 50/50 balance instead of 80/20.
and it would be utterly foolish to design a system that is meant to encourage players to fill up queue slots in a game requiring 4/1 player split to work around 50/50 split.
to put it simply - it only makes sense if the system gives incentive for survivors ANY TIME there's less than 80% of the current players in queue as a survivor and that is the case at almost any time in the day except evening/late night when most people are free and can play with their friends.
in reality the player split between roles is most definitely more or less equal and that's not what the game needs to fill up survivor slots at the same pace as killer's.
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Survivors are 80% of the playerbase. What do you think is more enjoyable for them, a 55% kill rate or 60%?
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evidently they are not :)
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Killers being strong is fine outside of a handful of exceptions. The problem is they keep nerfing maps on top of it. You can't keep reworking and releasing every killer into the A tier while we have maps like Haddonfield. If killers are going to be strong as a default then maps should be buffed. They shouldn't be balancing maps with the bottom five weakest killers in mind. It makes playing against the rest incredibly painful and unfair.
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yeah, i agree.
i feel like current map balance standard should be macmillan/azarov (except gasheaven) and other similar maps. they have very balanced amount of tiles and fair/filler pallets on average.
they arent very good for killers w/o chase powers, but imo at this point they should be buffed instead at this point.
deadzone fests with mostly empty fields to w key over are funny sometimes, but utterly boring.
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I've never waited that long for survivor games in the past, I think games being nearly instant for survivor is more concerning than anything else, by making it 55 percent even as a start my killer queues wont be taking that long. as they are super long rn, especially during events.
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Damn your posts always present such high intellect, very impressive.
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Interesting. My survivor queues in EU are always way too long. Killer queues however are almost instant.
As for the BP bonus, nobody really cares about it (newbies, maybe?)
But you should know this bonus is personal. It's for you or someone at your MMR level in the game.
Basically it means the game doesn't need a killer of your level but your survivor level may fill a slot.
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This I very much agree with. I actually have been defending a lot of the newer map reworks because until a certain point I found them to be good, some maps were really too big and had too many safe pallets and needed changes. But lately the map changes have been questionable. Haddofield is the perfect example. But the coldwin maps have also been degrading for some reason, especially with the latest new tiles added, that are kind of bad for survivors.
I also had a match on Mother's Dwelling once where almost half the map was a deadzone, that match was completely unwinnable. Not sure what is going on, but the devs need to start increasing the pallet count on quite a few maps. I don't even mind the size reductions that much, I think maps like Mother's Dwelling have the perfect size now. But too many maps seem to be suffering from too many big deadzones.
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As other have said, your bonus is dependant on factors like region, time of day and MMR.
But something is wrong with bonuses atm and devs are investigating as even with a high survivor bonus the queues are a few minutes and killer queues are always instant no matter the incentive.
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Just curious - do you play killer yourself? I do, and I sure don't consider it to be "baby mode easy". Am I just bad at the game? I'd love to see some of your killer gameplay so I can learn how to play better.
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The game used to be balanced around a lower kill rate and the devs realized that nobody wanted to play killer, so they had to adjust the balance to get average kill rates up to the current ~60%. People complaining about the game being "survivor-sided" or "killer-sided" need to realize that in this type of asymmetrical game that if one side is happy all the time, that means the other side is miserable all the time. The right level of balance is to have some frustration on both sides, which is where the game is at right now (at least in my experience - I play about 50/50 killer and solo q survivor, SWF very rarely with a couple other friends).
The devs are never going to make changes based on forum complaints — they're going to do it based on the game data. So if you think survivor is such a miserable experience, the only way that's going to change is to stop playing. If the devs see survivor-to-killer ratio getting too much out of balance, they'll adjust the kill rates accordingly. Or, better yet, try playing killer yourself. You'll probably find that it's not as easy as you believe it is.
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2v8 didn’t have as many ragequits because survivors can’t ragequit via 2v8 cages. This is why BHVR should remove survivors being able to ragequit via hooks.
If survivors want to ragequit, they should be required to actually DC, so they can get the penalty they deserve, and the other survivors can get a survivor bot replacement.
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And also because early cages/hooks didn't feel nearly as punishing as they did in 1v4. Survivors still felt like they actually had a chance to win.
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To fit the horror trope, IMO.
Ideally the game should make getting sacrificed/killed an entertaining experience such that kill-rates are less of a concern for the majority and only really "problematic" for those that are fixated on "winning".
Though currently there is a bit of a problem where if you're killed/sacrificed early you're booted out of any further gameplay in that match.
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I've been playing Twins with a slugging build the past few days and almost every game is a 4k. The game is absurdly killer sided right now and the devs should be ashamed of what they've done to a once great game.
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I personally think they have gone a little too far with some of the recent Killer buffs and the last 3 Killers have way too many strong powers. Every single one of Dracula's powers is arguably better than what Trapper or Legion bring to the table.
It's hard to think of a Killer that hasn't been buffed in some way recently. Even Killers like Nemi and Bubba (who were pretty close to the 60% Kill rate already) got some pretty significant buffs. So I don't buy the narrative that kill rates haven't changed much since the last stats. Even if they haven't, there must be some nuance to the figures. I bet some Survivor players on the lower end of the MMR scale have seen their escape rates absolutely plummet overall (or at least against certain Killers). I think I probably only escape 2 out of every 10 games now. And yes, I do include games that have giving up or a DC in those figures, because although BHVR might like to pretend these games don't exist, I still have to play them out.
It's not all the Dev's fault. I tend to view DBD as a fundamentally casual game by design, but I know much of the player base have a totally different attitude. They will SWF up on coms, stack items, perks and add-ons in their favour and play in the most optimal ways possible, which usually means someone in the trial isn't going to be having much fun. This skews the data and the problem is, I'm not sure what BHVR can really do to account for player attitudes or to mitigate for "must win at all costs" play styles.
But I think most people can agree that it's not fun to be stomped for multiple trials in a row, which is where it feels like we are at with Survivor (at least for me).
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It never made any sense to have one side (and additionalle the side with the most player count) to be at a disadvantage regarding to match outcome. Why would any sane player play survivor games when you know you have not an equal chance of "winning" the match unless youre loving to be tortured? Devs need to realize that even if this game is asyemmtrical, both parties need to have the same chance of winning the matches. They need to stop playing their "slasher fantasy" at the back of their players.
Being the power role doesnt have anything to do with the outcome. Thats another thing devs never started to accept.
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I believe the idea of the 60% kill rate is based from, for a 2 ,3 or 4 man escape, the gate must have been powered/opened. This means that assuming a perfect distribution of 20% for each possible result between 0k - 4k (a 50% killrate), this means that 60% of the time, the survivors complete their objective and power/open the gate.
Of course it's still possible for the gate to get opened and still get a 3k and 4k scenario, but it is also of course possible to have an escape to occur via hatch or opening the gate without the gens completed on a 3k (via closing hatch), so we'll simply to ignore these on the presumumption they balance each other out for the sake of simplicity.
If we make it so that killers get a 4k 10% more often, and a 0k 10% less often (a 60% killrate) that means that the gate gets powered/opened 50% of the time. When you look at it this way this makes more sense....
A 55% killrate means that gates also get powered 55% of the time, which sounds pretty fair. However we do also have real world things like 0k being quite hard to accomplish for survivors (a killer can usually kill 1 survivor quite easily), and the fact a lot of survivors are altruistic and come back to make saves which I would guess fails more often than it succeeds cause soloQ.
On the flip side, there is the idea that the game isn't over till it's over, and the killer should have a certain amount skill in closing out, but this is of course made a moot point by the EGC slowing while a survivor is downed/hooked, and the fact survivors can 99 gates.
So my gut says 55% gate open rate would feel about right... if the gates couldn't be 99d and regressed when let go, and EGC was a fixed 150s, no slowdown at any points.
Post edited by UndeddJester on3 -
I look forward to your 100 Trapper Winstreak.
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@I_Cant_Loop didn’t attack you and made a reasonable request. If Killer is so easy, as you say, you should have no trouble displaying how easy it is through your own gameplay and giving him insight into what he’s doing wrong and how he can improve.
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I'm on EU servers and the BP bonus is ALWAYS on survivor and people have tried to say different as if I don't see it myself! Like hello?
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You are expecting someone to actually refute you with proper arguments when all you say yourself is that killer is "baby easy mode"? You must be joking right?
How about you actually make some helpful comments with proper arguments yourself? I just pointed out how pathetic your comment was, nothing else. And I have seen you repeat this crap again and again on these forums. You must be very bitter.
Solo survivors surely don't have it easy at the moment. The gap between swf and solo is still noticeable, matchmaking can really screw over solo survivors, and killers are as strong as ever with more maps becoming killer sided for no good reason at all. But anyone who goes against actual good survivors knows that killer isn't just "baby easy mode". There is a fair amount of skill that goes into both roles.
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Holy crap this! Like back in the day maps were BUSTED but alot had been addressed and lots of killers have been buffed to address this so why are maps being nerfed into the ground where I can literally see all 4 walls of the map and any time?!
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2v8 wasn’t better just because the escape rate went up by 5%. It was better because it was chaotic and way more fun. Three times as many pallets, no camping, no giving up, and loads of newbie killers to mix things up.
Right now, many killers have around a 55% kill rate. But would you even know which ones just by playing? Probably not. You call 60/40 arbitrary, but why? Isn’t 55/45 just as arbitrary? A 60/40 split averages about 2.5 kills per match, hitting that sweet spot where escaping isn’t so easy that it loses meaning, and killers still get enough kills to keep things interesting. At 55%, you’re just barely above 2 kills per match, but 2ks are almost always predictable: one player gets proxy camped, another dies trying to save, and the last two escape. Rinse and repeat.
In any case, the main 1v4 mode isn’t worse than 2v8 because of the escape rate; it’s worse because it just isn’t as laid-back.
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well there a solution for that remove the hook lmfao
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I play solo q and my matches have been horrendous! It's like the killer is just going all out with the dirtiest tactics and you literally sat there like "wait, am I having fun?" I've played this game since Oni was released. I dont like where we are.
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Why not 50/50??
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Sorry, but I have a hard time believing this. Even professional streamers who play the game 12+ hours a day do not consistently 4K. So either you are one of the top players in the world (I mean, I guess it's possible?) or what you're claiming is not true.
It's perfectly fine for you and others to believe the game is "absurdly killer-sided" - it's a matter of opinion and clearly nobody is going to change you mind. What actually matters is the overall player count and killer-to-survivor ratio. Those are what is going to determine how the devs balance the game. No matter what the kill rate is, there will always be people coming to the forums to complain that they're not having enough fun and that the game favors the other side that they don't play.
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In my opinion, the thing that needs to be done to reduce the killrate is that there aren't enough players playing Survivor, after that they will think that my Survivor game design is really messy and I have to do something or buff the Survivor so that lots of people want to play it again. it will be very difficult to do this because the majority of the player base are survivors.
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62.5% means getting a 3k or 4k on roughly have of your matches. Essentially, 60% means you're just short of winning roughly half your matches (if you accept that 3k+ is a win).
Remember a 50% kill rate is only 2 kills. A 75% kill rate is 3 kills.
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There are streamers with 1k+ win streaks on killer. Something like that shouldn't be possible in a pvp game with MMR.
Otz is a pro who has done 30 game win streaks on every killer, yet even trying his hardest wasn't able to get a higher than 40% escape rate in solo q. Average solo q player is supposed to be happy losing 7/10 games they play, and then escaping vs an afk killer so the mmr system thinks their win rate is fine?
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The win streaks you are talking about are the top 0.01% of players. This does not apply to a vast majority of the player base. The latest stats we have shows that average solo q escape rate is ~40%. If you're consistently escaping less frequently than that, I don't know what else to tell you other than based on the stats you would be on the lower end of the skill curve.
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So, I've done the math, and it gives the answer as why 40% escape rate is an excellent choice.
I'm also providing a tool to experiment.
This should settle the matter once and for all.
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I don't think that would be better for both sides. You can't solve the problems of the game by trying to balance the kill/escape rate. That's like... I can't even find a comparison to make. That's how bad it is.
I really don't put much stock into these stats. But if killers lost a whole 5% of kills, they'd be leaving like never before. Nobody wants to play the control roll where they have no control. That's what (little more than) 50% kill rate sounds like. Survivors are supposed to be running around, scared for their lives, as their players usually are. But in high level matches, with 4 survivors playing good instead of just 1-2, the killer's lucky to get 2-4 hooks sometimes. That's not good. It's never been this hard, only to still get such pitiful results.
And the situation just keeps getting ignored, because MMR is not being brought into the discussion, because some are convinced that it either needs to go, or that it's perfect as is. It needs to stay, and it needs lots of work. The beginning of MMR was the closest to perfect it got, excepting the solely kill/escape method of gaining/losing. Back then, you got put with teammates and opponents of equal skill. Who cares if you had to wait a minute to join a lobby? The devs could actually balance off what they saw, because they got to see even playing fields for the first time. But after that, MMR just became stupid. Going back to random matchmaking, or worse, now forced mismatches, makes it impossible to balance off anything, because you're getting unbelievably skewed data and nobody knows ######### is going on. Not the devs, not the killers, not the solos. SWF's doing fine, but then again the sky is blue.
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