Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Hooks vs. Slugs. Which Tactic is Best?
I'm really trying to find some benefit in the hook playstyle in 2024. It's gotten to the point where not just spreading 12 hooks, but even camping and tunneling with hooks is not as effective for killers.
All my calculations say that now the most profitable tactic for a killer is to slug when all 4 survivors are on the ground. BUT DON'T WORRY AFTER THE VICTORY, EVERY SURVIVOR WILL GET THE FIRST AND ONLY HOOK, WHERE I WILL WAIT FOR YOUR 4 PERCENT FIRST. In order of queue for each survivor who survives to this point. I will not have survivors in the slug longer than necessary.
I consider slug as a means to an end, and not an attempt to ruin your life. I will tell you more about this a little later.
Why did it happen this way
We've been working towards this for a long time. A year ago, in September 2023, when the anti-face camping system was just being introduced on the PTB. This system on the PTB raised some concerns, which, fortunately, did not come true. When anti-face camping was released, it became a fair mechanism for containing killers, but unfortunately, it became an alarming sign for future events.
Since the survivors' side had little success. They pressed the developers, who little by little gave survivor quality of life buffs and nerfs to killer perks. The paradox was that he nerfed perks that were supposed to encourage killers to leave hooks. Which gave a rather funny flavor to the whole situation.
The final straw for the killers was 10 seconds of hook as a negative event and the mori finisher as a positive reinforcement that slugging is a good tactic. The combination of these events encouraged many killers to try slugging who had never even considered such a tactic. The more killers tried slugging for mori, the more they realized that it was a good tactic for the game. Now here we are in the midst of an emerging slugging epidemic.
Two important points to know before we continue.
1) Please leave your morals and knight's code somewhere else. I am only interested in the facts of usefulness and impact on the game. There is no good or evil. It is not light or dark. It is a bit more complicated and in the legal gray area. PEOPLE LIKE ME LOOK FOR WORKABLE PROFIT, NOT BLIND FAITH. If you cannot sell your working project of distributing 12 hooks, then take it on faith that everyone will have fun.
This is a bad model for distributing the game tactics you want to see from killers. No one in their right mind would play at their own expense. When it comes to choosing between your fun and my fun. I will always choose my fun. The most you can hope for is tunneling the first survivor and playing for 9 hooks. The first survivor suffers so that the other three survivors can have fun.
I want to say for 12 hooks, where you will also have fun. We need to make such a system so that the killer can get his benefit.
2) I am ready to play on hooks if the game motivates me enough. The benefit should be significant, and not a benefit in the form of statistical error. Forget about blood points, punishment and any reputation system. You are not trying to bribe killers with that. You must understand that killers have their own value system and base your proposals on that.
Make a banal deal, where survivors and killers sacrifice something in order to build a fun game on 12 hooks. LET'S BE HONEST MOST OF US ARE ADEQUATE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT GET MUCH JOY FROM STARING AT A SURVIVOR ON A HOOK. There is simply no other alternative to playing in the present time except to make another person unhappy. Anything else is a game at a loss, which is unacceptable.
Let's take my last experience playing with 12 hooks as an example. I took a Ghost with a build for obsession. Play with Your Food, Nemesis, Friends 'til the End and Furtive Chase. I made a build that would be fun for me to play with 12 hooks. All I did was chase the obsession, which was replaced with each hook with the help of Friends 'til the End. As a result, I made 6-7 hooks, but survivors constantly escaped from my matches. Because in order to start killing at a certain point, you need to tunnel a survivor, and this went against the principle of hook distribution.
I'll tell you a secret, I could have made a more unpleasant build purely for tunneling Play with Your Food, Hex: No One Escapes Death, Game Afoot and Rancor. Get at least an acceptable normal result with a minimum of two survivors' kills, but it's a damn unfun match for everyone involved. In the end, the experiment was a failure. Playing on hooks looks like a useless action that ultimately did not give any rewards except mythical fun. While another build could have given a balanced two kills, but made everyone miserable.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE. The problem here is that 12 hooks did not provide me with those promised balanced two kills. But tunneling and killing with Hex: No One Escapes Death and Rancor at least give two kills. So I will choose my happiness, not yours, but I do not mind making you happy when killing two survivors with a game on 12 hooks.
Why Hooks Are No Longer Relevant
A lot has been said and will be said in the future, but I'll just focus on one detail. Perks that are supposed to encourage 12 Hook play are constantly getting nerfed or aren't powerful enough to use. It's literally like telling all Killers to camp, tunnel, and slug.
The power of these perks should be to make Killers want to be as far away from the hooked Survivor as possible. That is, to offer a decent incentive to leave the hook zone. We currently have 22 Hook related perks. Some of them were even meta, but were nerfed by Survivors' requests.
Friends 'til the End A great perk that really encourages you to break away from the hook. The only thing that ruins it is that the perk only works well with other Obsession perks. You literally need to do a Friends 'til the End, Nemesis, Hideive Chase, and Alien Instinct build. The build is an acquired taste and encourages double tunneling, which survivors don't like.
Furtive Chase I like this perk, but it's in the non-standalone category. The only benefit is to pair it with Friends 'til the End, where it synergizes nicely, giving stability and a win when hooking any survivor.
Alien Instinct A weak perk that only works in hook stage swap builds. It literally helps you tunnel an escaped survivor and take a hook stage away from a rescuer. Again, not a standalone addition to other perks.
Barbecue & Chilli An outdated design that was heavily resisted by survivors using cabinets and Distortion. Sometimes it makes me wonder if it would be beneficial for everyone to have the killer stay hooked with the survivors instead of chasing someone beyond 40 meters. It's a win-win situation for everyone except the poor guy on the hook ;) Friends 'til the End made me realize that we don't need to see all the survivors on the map, just one is enough to go in pursuit. In many situations, this is a better way to find survivors.
Blood Echo A middling perk that I like, but it doesn't motivate spreading 12 hooks.
Blood Warden and No Way Out Endgame friends. Unstable perks that rarely work.
Dying Light A weak joke that can only be saved by synergy with Friends 'til the End. Tried it in an obsession build. Doesn't work.
Hex: Devour Hope If it weren't for the totem. I would always run away from the hanged man, the survivor to the other end of the map, but alas. You know which totems are useless and work only in the amount of 4 perk slots.
Hex: Huntress Lullaby A weak joke that only works for the Doctor. Loses to other totems. Without 3 other totems, there is no point in even taking it into the game.
Hex: Plaything More like a way to make yourself Hex: Pentimento than a game with 12 hooks. The only time where you can even play without four totems.
Make Your Choice Wrong design. It involves tunneling and being within 32 meters.
Leverage Bad design. After all, the perk is designed for tunneling a survivor.
THWACK! Nowhere to Hide analogue only with shouts. Useless because tokens are spent in pursuit when it is not necessary.
Grim Embrace and Pop Goes the Weasel have recently received nerfs, which has somewhat reduced the desire to play on 12 hooks. They are now more like a placebo for killers who cannot come to terms with the slowdown meta becoming useless.
Dead Man's Switch It's kind of a buff, but also kind of a nerf. Rather, it has become weaker as a motivation for playing hooks and is an addition to Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance, without which it is insufficient.
Scourge Hook They have one thing in common. Random. Relying on randomness is a rather dubious business. There are more reliable perks for winning.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance Nerf weakened the desire to play on 12 hooks
Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain Nerf of the hit and run part slightly weakened the desire to spread hooks
Scourge Hook: Floods of Rage Average perk that spoils the general problem of Scourge Hook.
Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine weak effect. Needs to be strengthened to motivate leaving hooks
Scourge Hook: Hangman's Trick. Weak joke
Bottom line.
What's left in the end?
Placebo in the form of 4 slowing perks. Not strong enough hit and run (nerf Save the Best for Last and Sloppy Butcher). Weird builds for an amateur. 4 totem perks and 4 obsession perks. Unstable endgame builds and generator kicking. It's not even worth mentioning the generator kicking meta. There are good perks there, but these are unstable builds. Where, regardless of the result, you may not even touch the generator for the entire game.
No wonder killers started building a slug empire.
You did not think that if you constantly hit the killer in the head? They will not be disappointed in the hook system one day, considering slugging a more profitable style.
Advantages of Slug over other tactics
A promising direction of the game with many advantages.
1 The most important. Saving time. Transportation to the hook takes too much time. As you know, time is the most valuable resource for killers. You can spend your free time from transportation on something fun and productive.
2 You are always engaged in the most fun part of the game. The chase. An eternal chase is all you need to be happy. After all, everyone plays the game just for this.
3 You no longer need to deal with hooks. A rebuffing item that is more useful to survivors than to the killer. All that burden of bandages that is trying to patch up the balance of the game. 10 seconds, a Endurance and other qualities of life for the survivor. Your worries and stress literally disappear before your eyes.
4 Ignoring 26 perks tied to hooks. Many of which are meta and are used as an offensive tool. They no longer have power over the killer, which greatly reduces the potential of the 16 survivor perk slots.
Full list.
Camping and Tunneling
Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike
Defense
Babysitter, Borrowed Time, Breakdown, Deliverance, Kindred, Reassurance, Resurgence, Second Wind, We'll Make It, Wicked, Fast Track, Blood Rush, Slippery Meat, Camaraderie
Transportation
Boil Over, Breakout, Power Struggle, Flip-Flop
Lantern Assault
Background Player, Flashbang, Champion of Light, Residual Manifest
Toolbox Assault
Saboteur
5 Complete indifference to two unpleasant styles of play of survivors with items. Flashlight and toolbox. Survivor squads literally get a well-deserved punishment, since all their tricks are designed for hooks.
6 The ability to focus on other categories of perks that you have not taken before. Refused, for example, from other perks like Lightborn. After all, you no longer need to carry a survivor and become a victim of Flashbang.
7 Unwillingness of survivors to adapt to your style of play in the presence of counterplay against slug. Anything more complex than the meta, holding m1 and shift + w always meets resistance from survivors.
List.
Boon: Exponential, Buckle Up, For the People, Plot Twist, Soul Guard, Teamwork: Collective Stealth, Teamwork: Power of Two, Blood Pact, Tenacity, Unbreakable, We're Gonna Live Forever, Made for This, and No Mither
8 Survivors spend a lot of time in the match, and aren't eliminated within a couple of minutes. What survivors dream of is a full-fledged match, where only the skill of the survivor determines how he will spend it.
9 Survivors are not subjected to dishonest tactics in the form of camping and tunneling. This is simply the ultimate dream of 2 for the price of 1. Slugging, unlike camping and tunneling, is a healthier style of play.
Result.
Having tried slugging, you will become a little happier. Everything that made you unhappy no longer has power over you. You can practice what is really fun. Chasing. The peace of mind that this playstyle will give you is the most priceless thing you can get in DBD.
Comments
-
If youre able to play the game hooks are far better. If not, well, join the slugging pests, but you lose all rights.
7 -
Hooks allow for permanent preassure while slugs allow for temporal preassure.
If you are a killer that has to manage a resource, you are more likely to slug.(Oni, Plague, Pig, Myers)
If you are a killer that has low cooldowns and easy access to it's killer power you are more likely to hook (Hillbilly, Bubba, Nemesis, Demo, Dracula, Spirit)
8 -
I think your frustations depend largely on the killer you play and how they deal whith these aspects.
For example you will never hear a Knight or Twins player complain about saves because their guards/Victor deals with these players easily.
Meanwhile getting stunned as plague nukes your corrupt purge and loses you the match.
2 -
Simple answer? Your views on the actual benefits of hooking are skewed. Examples: Friends till the end can work on its own and you don't need to combine it with others for it to do its job well enough while Make your choice is entirely incorrect.
5 -
Idk I hook because I find that more fun than slugging folks. Hooking is the way the game is intended to be played. And I honestly don't think I'm penalized for hooking instead of slugging. Like yes of course there are mechanics that come into play when you hook survivors. But I like them being there and posing a challenge :) as long as they're fair of course. Which I find they mostly are rn.
4 -
I have to admit, this whole debate about hooks no longer being worth it has completely blindsided me and I have no idea where it comes from.
I do see a big list of perks that you can avoid by slugging here, but over half of those are specifically tools against camping or tunnelling so those aren't really relevant to the discussion, and a good chunk of the remaining ones aren't really so strong that they really warrant trying to avoid on the killer side- and that's the only real direct pressure to slug instead of hook that I'm seeing here, unless I'm missing something? Everything else just seems to be talking about the extra benefits of hook perks not being good enough.
What's often missing from these discussions, I've found, is the actual direct benefits of hooks before perks even come into play. Maybe it'd be most constructive for me to provide my understanding of the benefits of hooks, and then you can clarify why you think that no longer applies in the current state of the game? Here's that understanding:
When you get a hook, you suddenly have a springboard to start spreading your pressure. The strongest pressure that a killer can get, short of a dead survivor, is to have someone on the hook- they are immobilised and incapable of doing generator repair, and they put time pressure on the survivors to get up and rescue them, moreso than a slug. A hook state is 80 seconds, and a bleedout takes 4 minutes, so the time pressure is much heavier from a hook than a slug.
When one survivor gets up to rescue their teammate, you - the killer - should already be chasing a third, leaving only the fourth survivor able to do generators freely. Finish that chase quickly, and you start the cycle again, keeping up pressure that survivors have to react to or they'll lose immediately.
The whole point of spreading hooks is to keep up that cycle of constantly forcing survivors to react, and pulling them away from generators to do it. Slugs do achieve a similar goal, don't get me wrong, but less so and without the direct progression towards your goal that hooks provide.
I'd also like to point out that you mention killer nerfs and survivor quality of life, but… killers get buffs and quality of life too, all of which is geared towards leaving the hook because that's the basic expectation of fundamentally competent killer play, it's just how the game works. You even mention Furtive Chase in your post, which is one of those buffs!
As an aside, that Furtive Chase/Nemesis build is a fun one I use too, but it is a bit of a gimmick if you're putting all your eggs in that basket. If you want to increase your chances of winning, you should probably consider a slowdown perk or something for chase instead of Play With Your Food, which I don't think even works in this context, since it requires dropping chase with the Obsession when you need to hook the Obsession to activate FC.
7 -
it's opposite. hooking is temporary pressure while slugging is permanent pressure. when you hook someone, your giving your map presence as killer to cash in permanent pressure later on in the match.
it is very much like going to a bank and putting money into the bank instead of spending all your money as soon as you get it.
When you get a hook, you suddenly have a springboard to start spreading your pressure. The strongest pressure that a killer can get, short of a dead survivor, is to have someone on the hook- they are immobilised and incapable of doing generator repair, and they put time pressure on the survivors to get up and rescue them, moreso than a slug.
that is not true. a survivor is immobilized regardless if you slug or hook them. slugging survivors is much more powerful at immobilizing survivors than hooking survivors. one of best times to repair gens as survivor is ironically when killer hooks survivors. this is because killer is immobilized. It is also one of reasons to why it is very powerful strategy to make killer spread hooks because if they need to hook 7 survivors before they get a kill, they will be immobilized longer in the match.
for example, let's say every hook is between 6 seconds and 18 seconds of killer's time. a median is 12 seconds. 7x12 = 80 seconds. Imagine being afk/not moving at the start of the match for 80 seconds. that means you can nearly complete 3 gens in the time that killer is just hooking survivors. After that, you have account that hooks often place killer in poor positions where they don't want to go so if they leave hook, they have to walk away from hook to find another chase. for example if you hook someone in corner of Yamaka estate on left but player went down closer to middle, the killer has to walk upwards than walk back downwards leading to backtracking where as if killer immediately slug a survivor, they don't need backtrack. these are all little tricks that survivor use to "waste" killers time.
A hook state is 80 seconds, and a bleedout takes 4 minutes, so the time pressure is much heavier from a hook than a slug.
Hook states are 70 seconds.
When one survivor gets up to rescue their teammate, you - the killer - should already be chasing a third, leaving only the fourth survivor able to do generators freely. Finish that chase quickly, and you start the cycle again, keeping up pressure that survivors have to react to or they'll lose immediately.
killer can much more easily do that by slugging because there is less waste time sinks.
I'd also like to point out that you mention killer nerfs and survivor quality of life, but… killers get buffs and quality of life too, all of which is geared towards leaving the hook because that's the basic expectation of fundamentally competent killer play, it's just how the game works. You even mention Furtive Chase in your post, which is one of those buffs!
with how many perks right now are punishing killers for hooking, there is becoming a greater incentive to slug. it's small but every small water drop leads to bigger water puddle.
3 -
In order:
1: So, part of what makes this argument not land for me is that it sort of implies that the act of hooking is itself just a timesink, and not something you get a benefit from… but you do get a benefit from it. You're spending those few seconds each time to make survivor generator efficiency plummet afterwards.
Because hooks are better at immobilising survivors (they cannot move from a hook, they can crawl towards their teammates if slugged) and provide a much sharper time pressure, any damage you do to the survivor team while someone's on the hook adds up to exude far more pressure than just leaving someone on the ground.
2: You're right, I fatfingered that. Hook timers being shorter bolsters my point, though. It's the time pressure that matters more than the immobilising, since slugging provides comparable-if-slightly-weaker results from immobilising but significantly worse results from the time pressure. Survivors have to react much sooner for hooks compared to slugs, since bleedouts take so long- as they should, to be clear.
3: See point one, hooking isn't a wasted timesink, it's time spent to achieve a benefit.
4: So, I said this in the main post, but how many of those perks actually are there for punishing just hooking?
Every anti-camp and anti-tunnel perk is out, they don't count for this conversation since you can hook and still easily avoid them. We should also make sure we aren't giving anti-pickup perks too much weight here since they, too, can typically be avoided fairly easily (and the ones that can't are unbalanced, not a fair element of the game, like Flashbangs not being avoidable by looking at a wall- that's a problem itself regardless of other context) even while going for hooks.
That leaves us with a few perks for self-unhooking, one of which is practically throwing (Small Game), one of which is extremely situational (Wicked), and the last of which is strong but not something the average player can make much use out of (Deliverance). None of these are particularly popular, so the risk of encountering one is quite low. Not exactly compelling all on their own, so are there any others?
Well, there's some miscellaneous perks like Resurgence, Breakdown, and Dead Hard. Those are good, for sure, none of those are bad perks… but enough to outweigh the significant advantages of getting a hook? I don't think so, personally. Progressing my objective and damaging survivor generator efficiency with hooks is more than worth a quicker heal, a broken hook, and a limited attack parry potentially being in play, as far as I'm concerned.
At most we have five perks you'd realistically avoid this way, only one of which is even potentially game-swinging enough to warrant it. Is that really enough pressure to avoid all the benefits of a hook?
To be clear, I'm not saying "never slug, slugging is worthless". I'm specifically responding to this idea that just turbo slugging is inherently better than hooking, obviously leaving a survivor on the ground sometimes is worthwhile.
5 -
I mean first of all, thanks for your honesty and it’s very interesting to get the insights from a killer - a lot of it confirmed my thoughts anyway.
I can’t discredit or invalidate what a killer player thinks is fun for them and understand that not everyone does it to be ‘aggravating or toxic’.
I usually have a self-policy of not trying to be overly negative or complaining for the sake of complaining but a lot of my posts usually advocate for a reduction of aura reading (as I think in my opinion anyway, that it makes the game too steep a learning curve for newer players/less confident loopers); and also about the whole slugging mechanic.A killer CAN say “well it’s not against the rules and the game allows it and devs have confirmed and endorse it and it IS the most simplest way to add pressure and win matches”. But we know anything can change in this game. It’s not the same thing but it’s like old Dead Hard or MFT, FTP/BU combo - when it was allowed it was allowed. If we all just stayed quiet then it would have remained the status quo. But of course many - overwhelmingly so, felt it was unhealthy for the game. So it is by that token that I ask for the slugging mechanic to be removed (obviously with refinements - I don’t mean take away completely, but a system that disables the facilitation of slugging for a 4K or removing total agency from the survivor.
It’s not that people are evil who use slugging - just as it was not for those who used above mentioned survivor ‘busted’ mechanics. But we must consider what is healthy for the game and make changes as honestly, there’s no right or wrong and everything can be justified and argued against - it will become very arbitrary and ultimately divisive.
I try to make a point of not being a negative moaner on the forums but I simply must state that the ‘mood’ of the game has drastically taken a hit amongst my circle of friends.
I don’t want the only people remaining in the game to be those who must constantly out-meta each other and play amongst a hostile backdrop. Alarmingly, both sides feel the other side is favoured.
You may not believe this, but I have never used a meta perk at all in the history of my time playing the game except when it has inadvertently become part of a meta through combination (for the people). Nothing wrong with meta and I’m not ‘anti-meta’ but it dismays me when someone thinks I’m throwing a match for not using meta perks - and I do understand where they’re coming from which is what saddens me..5 -
To answer the title : it really depends which killer you are playing.
If you have mobility or pressure to defend hooks or tunnel, then go for it. For exemple : Plague (forcing survivors to cleanse to try to safely unhook).
Otherwise it may be better to slug especially if you are punished for hooking either by wasting your power if it’s on a resource, or just losing it like Singularity pods on survivors getting destroyed.1 -
And can gain no permanent pressure doing it.
You don't have access to arguably some of the best killer perks in the game and don't activate regression or slowdown.
This is also hard countered by what some people consider the "most difficult category" of matches, since SWF with comms can just say "he's camping my body, stay on gens", or "he's leaving me, so you can get me up", or even "I have unbreakable, just leave me".
Getting the survivor back up means you have no pressure again, and have also made zero progress toward your objective. You don't have a permanent hook stage, and you've basically made no progress in the match.
It's the killer wasting time, which is interesting that killers suddenly have all the time in the world, and don't need slowdown suddenly. I guess it just depends on what you feel you need to say to get X thing changed that you don't like.
What people are looking at, and hoping for, is that this is more effective against solo q. So, good job identifying a pub stomping tactic that only serves to inflate kill rates and your MMR until you eventually go up against the group that can counter it. Then cry on the forums for nerfs because you can't just slam your face on the keyboard and win anymore.
5 -
Getting the survivor back up means you have no pressure again, and have also made zero progress toward your objective. You don't have a permanent hook stage, and you've basically made no progress in the match.
you make progress on your objective. it is that objective is changed from 3 hook to 4 minutes of bleed out. slugging is slow-burn strategy because it has fixed amount of time till you win. the goal of slugging is to paralyze entire team for 4 minutes. its momentum based game. if you keep most of the team on the floor, you will win eventually.
it is just that vs very good players, downing survivor is very difficult if the player is good at looping and there is lack of urgency to save survivors for long time. so the old gen before friends is very strong since you have a whole 4 minutes to rush gens before anyone even comes close to dying.
usually speaking, survivors can finish all 5 gens before anyone bleed out especially if you juggle your bleed out timers. that is why it is labelled more as pub-stomp soloq strategy because teams with solid looping+proper tactical gameplay can easily defeat slugging. in some ways, slugging relies on you WAY out performing your opponent in chase for very long time.
with hooking, you only need perform well at chase for killer for burst amount of time. after you acquire 3 hooks on any survivor which usually can happen anywhere between 3-5 hooks on average, you gain burst impact such that often the 3vs1 carries the killer. in some sense, the killer cashing on giving map presence usually should pay off. Usually… doesn't mean always and that the dilemma for killer.
3 -
First of all, I wanted to show that all the survivors with threads on the forum about slug and Knock Out. They are not lying. We are already here. Some of us have been developing slug tactics for a year now. I just wanted to show what prompted us to adopt slug as our main tactic.
I must admit. We have achieved good results.
The problem is that Friends 'til the End and Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance are like the skeleton of a building. To get Furtive Chase working consistently, you need Friends 'til the End. Together, they're a really good combo. To get Dead Man's Switch working, you'll want Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance. Most people prefer synergy and the perks working together.
Tell that to The Dredge with Make Your Choice. You know what's coming. He'll come back and tunnel as an option. If Make Your Choice works, continue tunneling thanks to Alien Instinct.
Naturally, I'd consider this a bad design. Because you basically have to go back to the hook to use the perk. You always have to think about how killers can subvert the perk.
But we have to be honest, there are some unscrupulous survivors who use the basic Borrowed Time set and the Off the Record, Decisive Strike perks as weapons. I have had many situations where survivors purposefully ran at me. When survivors on the hook protected the rescuer. Therefore, they cannot be excluded from the list for discussion. In the example above, Make Your Choice only in favor of survivors who can distort the essence of their defensive perks. This is a two-way street. Therefore, we should always consider the options not only of killers, but also survivors who can abuse their perks.
I decided to focus on perks that should attract a game on 12 hooks. Since without me there will be many people who will tell about other aspects of the disadvantages of hooks. I also had concerns that from the entire wall of text, the average survivor will make a verdict that I am just a bad person unworthy of playing the game. Still, survivors and killers have slightly different mentalities of perceiving the same things.
I wanted to show that I'm trying to find a way to spread the game to 12 hooks. Usually, the average survivor sees all such topics like this. Killers got another nerf and now out of anger they are trying to camp, tunnel and slug. But this never reflects the true situation of why this happens.
If all other things being equal, camping and tunneling-oriented builds are better than 12-hook builds in everything. This clearly says that something is wrong with the game. Personally, I am considering various options for strategies and builds. I am ready to hear about your working hook tactics. Not what the other person said at the beginning of the discussion (If you are able to play the game hooks are far better), but your working build that gives a stable result. Again, I am not some demonized image of a killer for survivors. Just a person who is capable of cruel actions to achieve his goals. I use what works.
Wraith is the only killer on whom Play with Your Food works reliably. Every time you go invisible during a chase, you get a token. Wraith earns spider tokens faster than others. Therefore, all that interests me there in build building is how to make sure that I always have obsession at hand. Not in a slug or a hook, but alive and in chace.
The whole point of the game was to play for those 12 hooks. Not to camp or tunnel at one moment, but to make a fun match, and so that the next survivor would not run to complain on this forum. The problem arose in the process that I did not get at least two kills and a sense of victory. I am not ready to play for the idea that 12 hooks are fun. I need at least a minimum result so that other participants have fun.
When we get a hook, 2-3 generators usually fly away or will be ready soon. After that, the killers turn on a switch that it's time for one of the survivors to leave the game using tunneling. This is done in order to keep up with the pace of the game. Then there are only two ways. Rely on the altruism of the survivors or create the appearance of a safe escape for the survivors. It's easier to let them unhook and tunnel.
The problem with slowing down is that now it's a placebo that needs to be taken in all 4 perk slots. It's better to look for other alternatives that will give more benefit. Than to hold on to something that gets nerfed at the request of the survivors.
I could say a lot more, but just look at this. Looking at this image, I understand that I'm moving in the right direction.
The main thing in your fight is not to overdo it. I'll tell you one story. One day, the killers really left DBD. Not just like usual simple talk, but they really stopped playing. That was the only time when the killers showed that they should be taken into account. It was like before the rank system changed. Because all the killer lobbies looked like this. And they rightly asked. Why do I have such survivors?
I can add one more thought that will be interesting to you. And with which players on killers will the survivors stay in the long term? Think about who all the nerfs hit. First of all, those with whom the survivors would like to play. The distributors of 12 hooks simply cannot withstand the competition and leave the game or play as a survivor.
While campers and tunnelers simply adapt. They will nerf the slug. The killers will say. Good. They will find another tactic to use, and it will be even worse for the survivors. I will be honest, during this adaptation, players do not acquire the best character. Since a person of a certain character is capable of staying in the role of a killer with this eternal struggle. Someone who is capable of cruel measures to achieve a goal. This is literally locking yourself in a jar with spiders.
Well, just in case, otherwise they'll look at the screenshots and demonize me in absentia.
I can also take positive actions. For example, in the last event. I figured that farming pumpkins and ghosts is much more profitable than killing more poor guys. From 60,000 to 120,000 with cake. Literally the entire event was fun for my survivors. However, I noticed one interesting observation. Out of 300 survivors, only 5 actually let themselves be killed, for which I am humanly grateful to them. About 10 survivors wrote GG. Which made me draw certain conclusions. Apparently, Huntress with 4 aura perks, playing as if her life depended on it, is much more pleasant for the survivors.
I am not averse to fun humor. The only funny thing that happened to me in several years of playing DBD. As you can see, all 5 people were satisfied with the game. I even got 2 balanced kills, but such miracles will not happen again.
What I mean is that it's not black and white, but rather grey.
2 -
It's subjective in the end. Foe me, hooking is better than slugging for the following reasons:
- **Improvement**: Learning to use the arguably tougher option of hooking (not that it's exactly hard, but slugging is easier) and developing pressure that way would definitely make a better Killer player, as you're willing to do things the more challenging way.
- **Scaling**: By this, I mean you may not shoot up the MMR as fast, but you will gradually meet opponents who are tougher. Slugging would mean getting up MMR into areas with teams clearly much better than yourself. It makes the experience far more enjoyable.
- **Reward**: For me, slugging doesn't come across as challenging. Anybody can do it. It's far more easy than hooking, and has no real challenge. I feel I've enjoyed a game far more when I've earnt something than just repeating a piss-easy tactic.
- **Bloodpoints**: The longer a trial goes on, the greater the BP that can be won. It rewards extending a trial and utilising the skill in getting a 4K, whilst challenging yourself. Sure, sometimes it may bite me in the backside, but it's more common to get a nice, chunky load of BP at the end.
- **Art of Mixing** Sometimes, combing hooks and the odd slug really does put pressure on the opponents. I may slug if the opportunity presents, and by that I mean the survivors play badly and bunch up. Bad plays should be taken advantage of, but at the same time it's when its used.
- **Short-sightedness**: We've seen it before, when BHVR saw face-camping as a big issue, so they changed it. They even tested an anti-slug system, which was thrown away due to the feedback. However, if lots of Killers just decided "You know what? Slugging is the way. Let's all do that!", it is asking for BHVR to respond. Then those sluggers will complain and suddenly find themselves losing, because they havem't learnt any other vital skills.
There are probably others, but overall slugging is easier, yet not nearly as rewarding. Hooking is beneficial in many more ways in terms of longevity, whilst slugging is just a sugar rush in comparison.
3 -
you make progress on your objective. it is that objective is changed from 3 hook to 4 minutes of bleed out. slugging is slow-burn strategy because it has fixed amount of time till you win. the goal of slugging is to paralyze entire team for 4 minutes
Which is a waste of time.
I already addressed, and you confirm, that this heavily assumes you're "paralyzing the entire team". You aren't, in all situations. In fact, of survivors are working on gens and going in at the last minute, you're just giving up gen progress for free. For no reason.
If you're proposing that 70 seconds of hook is too much and gens are being completed, then you're somehow arguing that giving 4 minutes instead is better? That will never work out, unless, again, your team is entirely solo q players who not only can't handle it, but you even admit this only works if the survivors lose their minds and fall apart completely with this strategy.
And since it only really works on solo q teams, this will work similarly to tunneling where it'll probably just boost kill rates and your personal MMR until you finally hit survivors that can handle it and it stops working. Just like tunneling.
This is simply the latest tantrum by some killers to take out their frustrations on other players. It's petty bs, and let's just call it that. At worst, you're also "protesting" 10 extra seconds on hook, that realistically almost never comes into play (unless you're hard camping).
And since this is the latest "stand still and hope to win" strategy for some killers, I'm willing to bet people doing this are also largely incapable of playing the game without camping every hook.
As much as we seem to have people who think they're "Max MMR" in these forums, they don't seem to have any grasp whatsoever of when certain strategies should be used to be more effective. Slugging is a tactic best used situationally. Nothing says "I have no game sense" to me more than using one strategy all the time, in every situation. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Players with skill can actually use multiple tools at the right time to get the job done
0 -
The 4 minute timer is still a permanent pressure. Unless a survivor is right nearby (which if they are, then they aren't working on gens, and you are being given more time by the survivors), you are still probably going to get about 30 seconds at minimum of pressure on that timer, which when you factor in that hooking a survivor takes 20 seconds to lock in that permanent pressure, 20 seconds you could be spending doing something else, slugging is in fact better than hooking most of the time at this point.
2 -
Outa curiosity, wouldn't game afoot work just as well since once you hit a chase target, they become the obsession, then you hook them and furtive procs? The obsession then can't hide around while you look for them.
Tangent aside, Make your choice does not promote tunneling since the unhooker is exposed. That dredge you mentioned woulda been back anyways should they wish to tunnel but now they have a clear an viable option to not do so (metaphorically speaking) and same with anyone with high mobility. It doesn't help not to tunnel as thats on the players but it does give an incentive to not do it and go for the unhooker.
Your opinion is your own just as ours is ours but we don't think its a bad design. It 1: helps teach survivors to not stay under the hook to heal all the time, 2: gives a reason for the killer to go out and look for people away from the hook, 3: should the killer not find anyone and it procs then they have 2 possible target locations: a exposed target and a injured target (obviously we'd want the exposed target but the injured one is an option), and 4: it punishes stupid plays, like healing someone under hook while exposed (we know you said facts only, but cmon this is a big one).
As we've said before, we think its just your views on it.
2 -
Well, if all you want is to get a viable understanding of how to play the game and stand a good chance of winning, that's something I can help with.
The first thing we need to acknowledge is that it isn't necessarily about builds, it's about playstyle. Perks and builds can absolutely help and I'll talk a bit about them in a minute, but we need to be careful not to start implying that going for spreading hooks is the absence of a strategy— it's a strategy itself, just like tunnelling or slugging, with the difference being it's a much more stable strategy that won't be nearly as vulnerable to balance changes. If you learn the fundamentals instead of crutching on one specific cheese strat or perk choice, you're not gonna be hurt as much if that cheese strategy or strong perk gets nerfed.
It's also not necessarily about specifically getting 12 hooks every match, there are pretty legitimate reasons that might not happen even if you're making sure to hook players and you're making sure not to tunnel anyone— take, for example, matches that reach the endgame where two survivors go down back to back and both die on their second hook instead of their third. That's a pretty reasonable thing to happen and not something we're necessarily trying to avoid, so "12 hooks" isn't our goal, spreading hooks is our goal.
I've already laid out the fundamental idea: Hook a survivor, chase a second survivor, drag a third survivor off gens. This dismantles gen efficiency, and directly progresses to your objective, as well as giving you access to more perks to use on your end if you want them. Making sure not to be around the hook and to be occupied with something else as quickly as possible cuts out huge swathes of survivor perks you might be worried about here - even aggressive survivors that want to bodyblock with their Endurance can't do it if you're halfway across the map chasing someone other than the unhooker.
So, what kind of perks and builds would we bring to make this strategy stronger? Let's take a look:
- First of all, one of the biggest flaws I often see in a player's gameplan, whether it's talking about their games on the forums or when I play survivor myself, is that they don't have anything for the early game. The very start of the match is when survivors are at their strongest, so if you want the safest chance to win, you need to have a strong start. The two best perks for this are Corrupt Intervention and Lethal Pursuer. Corrupt Intervention forces survivors to run away from the gens they spawn on, both delaying generator repair and forcing them to run towards you, and Lethal Pursuer allows you to pick the most advantageous chase by targeting either the largest group of survivors or the survivor that's the furthest out of position.
- Moving on from that, info perks are crucial. You really have your pick of which ones you like best, but the idea is to spend as little time as possible looking for survivors after a hook, and immediately get into a chase where possible. There are directly hook-based info perks that are the most obvious picks here, like BBQ, Alien Instinct, and Friends Til The End, but strong mid-match info perks like Gearhead can give you up-to-date info on where survivors are while you're chasing, meaning you can go there and have a better chance of finding them when you've gotten a hook.
- Chase perks, too, can be strong if you don't go overboard. Stacking your whole build into something like Spirit Fury/Enduring/Hubris/Brutal Strength can definitely be fun but it's a gimmick, it isn't a balanced build that'll reliably help you win games. Sprinkling in a few good perks that block resources (Bamboozle, Hex: Blood Favour, etc) or that help minimise your downtime/gain an edge in chase (Save The Best For Last, Coup De Grace, Brutal Strength) is totally worthwhile if you feel your chases are taking too long. Which ones you want are going to depend on your killer, and some killers like Nurse or Huntress don't really benefit much from any of them. On those killers, aura reading in chase (I'm All Ears, Zanshin Tactics, Predator) are better chase perks than the others.
- Next up is slowdown perks, and it's important not to fall into the trap of thinking that you need to run four of these. That can work, certainly, but it's a fragile gameplan and you have asked for something safer and more reliable. One or two to make each hook you get more damaging is absolutely worthwhile; the obvious best pick is Pain Res as it's the strongest killer perk in the game right now, but quite a few are viable. I'm personally quite fond of something like Gift of Pain paired with a perk like Agitation or Iron Grasp to better control where you hook someone, but since you've stated you play Wraith, I'll also mention that Eruption really shines on a killer that can attack multiple generators quicker than normal.
- There's also nothing wrong with endgame perks. The game isn't over just because the last generator finished and you haven't lost yet either; something like No Way Out can absolutely give you the extra edge you need to close out a match at the last moment.
- Finally I want to mention hexes, but only briefly. Hexes, in theory, can really bolster the basic strategy of spreading hooks because you can hypothetically get a fourth survivor off generators to take care of the totem… but realistically they don't tend to last that long, so I'm not going to hype up hexes as a safe, reliable, stable way of winning games. What I will do is say that specifically the perk Pentimento is quite strong in this capacity, as you can get some value out of a more obvious hex like Devour Hope and then get some slowdown out of it once the survivors cleanse it, for a minimal investment. Gens going slower gives you more time to generate pressure, which in turn makes them take even longer to finish.
With every perk that I've just mentioned, it's important to put them in the right context: Occupy survivors as much as possible by forcing them to react to time-sensitive situations like someone being on the hook. It's also important to remember that slugging is still a viable tactic to sprinkle in during games like this - I am not suggesting you quit slugging outright. If someone's hovering around for a flashlight save, for instance, you can absolutely leave that downed survivor on the floor to take care of the pesky flashlight wielder.
The final thing I want to mention is that, whenever you alter your gameplay in such a massive way, you should expect an adjustment period. You aren't perfect at a new character when you first pick them up, and adjusting your gameplay to fundamentally pursue different goals is much the same way. You might lose a little more at the start, but you'll be building better fundamentals that allow you to get far more value out of far more tools, without nearly as much risk of a single nerf ruining your gameplan.
5 -
This is why I am glad Ghostface is getting his Shroud cooldown reduced to 17 seconds (though I will agree he still needs more and that still isn't enough of a change to help his various issues). Good Ghostfaces should be able to manipulate Shroud in a way that they do not need to slug, he's not that kind of Killer - slugging can waste time for him if he's not careful because it's not as permanent as a hook; Survs with hooks often play more cautious as to not die, especially when on Death Hook. Reducing the cooldown = more power faster = less punishing to be revealed = he doesn't need to slug as much to start his snowball. That's why so many run Shroud charge addons like Olsen's Wallet or Walleye's Matchbook to start with.
It's also why Ghostfaces stalk unhookers, because that's pressure and it's a FUN interaction that opens up a stalk opportunity not otherwise there. If it opens up more gameplay, that's more fun not less. That's why honestly I think some light proxy camping is just fine; the worst offending feeling of being Face camped doesn't exist anymore and it's more tense to get that clutch hit, save, etc. when the Killer is close to the Hook. The AFC even pauses when both Killer and Surv are near the hook for this very reason, to allow fun gameplay moments around the Hook. You miss out on that when you slug.
Slugging gives less BP. Slugging isn't permanent pressure. Slugging is boring to play as a style AND play against. Slugging feels bad. Slugging is obnoxious. Slugging is a tool, and always should just be a tool. If you slug everyone, you don't get to eventually do cool things like Moris, everyone misses out on more points, you don't pip, the game is over too fast and thus not fun, and nobody really enjoys the match.
I almost never slug unless I absolutely have to. I prefer to get my points and secure my Kills. Besides, just because you win doesn't mean the round was actually any fun. Winning is nice, we all like winning, but an easy win is boring. Fighting over and around hooks is much more thrilling and fun.
0 -
I think it is hilarious that in one of your screenshots you censored the name "The Legion" but left your own name uncensored. Regardless of if it was intentional or not, made me laugh, nice touch.
As for slugging, it is more effective against uncoordinated survivors who don't bring anti-slug perks. If this playstyle ever becomes popular, you will find yourself quickly realizing that hooking is better when all of your matches have 4 unbreakables, WGLF, buckle up, MFT, and boons.
2 -
After all, I didn't say the most important thing. Which killers are suitable for slug in my opinion. After all, as noted above, the slug depends on the specific assassin. It may differ from yours. After the nerf of Ultimate Weapon, the slug potential of assassins has somewhat diminished. At the moment, Doctor, Legion, Onryō and Singularity. Perhaps Dredge, but this needs to be tested. These killers have some advantages in terms of slug. I do not exclude other killers, but let this be in the competence of someone else.
You can always give your useful advice to those who are good at slug tactics.
By the way, an interesting detail about slug is that you can determine how strong the survivor was by the 4-minute timer bar. In this image, survivor number 1 was the weak link in the team that was constantly falling. While survivors number 2 and 3 had equal skills, and survivor number 4 was the strongest in the chase, or the most cunning in tactics.
Another example, the strength and cunning of survivor number 6 was so great that the other three survivors had to wait. But even so, you can see that we had one weak link under number 7 and two survivors of average skills under numbers 5 and 8.
Thanks for the constructive. This is much more positive, unlike your colleague who again talked about hysterical killers, hammering solo players, wasting time and inability to play. Such people always do not take into account one simple detail. Slug, camping and tunneling work. And do not exclude the psychological issue. A strong army of survivors can always be broken morally. In victory, all means are good, except that in most cases the killers do it unconsciously. Since they are more likely guided by the fact that it is easier with 3 survivors than the death of 1 survivor will undermine the fighting spirit of the team.
As for me. I am at least ready to listen and try. Perhaps I will think that it was not worth it, but I will not immediately say that your plan is doomed to failure. Except that I will disagree on some details.
But you and I missed one important detail. Which killer should I play hooks on?
Maybe mentioning a couple of killers with builds, my thoughts and builds of general direction. Will allow us to do something more constructive. Further, some irrational and authentic decisions on some assassins are possible.
First of all, I don't believe in the slowdown meta even after all your hype. Before the nerfs. I did. After the nerfs, they are pointless to me. The survivors have done everything to make the killers take them only in 4 perk slots. Well, this really already looks like an act of desperation on the part of the killers. Plus, I am of the opinion that if the survivors want to, they will still start all the generators. So it is better to focus on strengthening other aspects of the game.
Scourge Hook and Hex. I would describe them as. I have no luck in gambling, and I do not want to gamble. With one detail, Hex is more reliable and makes sense in 4 perk slots.
Instead of No Way Out, I would prefer Terminus because it is better to let them open the gate and be on a timer than to wait it out. A minute more or less, but healthy does not have a big benefit. No Way Out is a 4 kill tool to catch the last survivor.
Hex: Pentimento Survivors can be smart. Any totem other than Hex: Plaything will only give you one Hex: Pentimento token. In some cases, I was very lucky that the totem was affected by Boon: Circle of Healing.
The rest of your points. Yes, they make sense.
Lightborn is necessary for my peace of mind. That's why it periodically flashes in my screenshots. Yes, I understand the opinion that it's a minus slot and useless. But it's better to be weaker but kind than stronger but evil. By the way, I treat survivors with a flashlight like snipers. What happens if a sniper is captured? Nothing good. If a survivor has a toolbox for a generator. Then he is an ordinary soldier fulfilling his goal. While a warrior of light is a pest who wants to deliberately upset me.
Yes, I believe in the power of genrush. Considering that when I play as a survivor, in any unclear situation I need to get generator.
Clown. I'll honestly try any perks you say because I don't see this killer at all.
Wraith. He's like a speed god with Play with Your Food for me. I'll say this if I'm camping at a certain point and tunnel one survivor in time. For the other three, this will turn into a real nightmare. After all, there are now ways to leave your obsession in the game. With the spider, he really breaks timings.
Doctor. Information is power, red addons will cover everything else. Actually, that's why I pumped him up to 100 prestige. My semi-slug build that was perfected over the course of a year. Let's say that at one point, if I want, I can play slug. Distressing will not be removed from the slot even under threat of death. Perhaps I will make an exception for totem builds, but this limits addons to Standard terror + Calm yellow + purple 18/46 meters. Obsessed with mass terror across the entire map. I envy the terror of Mastermind. Of the addons, I only play on red and terror radius addons. Distressing 40 meters and Distressing + Calm yellow + purple 26/ 54 meters.
The screenshot below shows how it works approximately. 4 hooks and a good moment for a slug. Iron Maiden fool's gold. Checking for the intelligence of survivors. In general, the build is mostly a search for survivors who decided to abandon their friends and wait for the hatch.
Dredge. I have not developed any special preferences. Mostly in the process. Semi-slug totem build, build based on Knock Out or something like Make Your Choice and Deathbound. Honestly, I don't know yet and need tests. I have 100 prestige and now I take the best addons. So far I have made something like this with obsession.
Deathslinger. Build number 1 when I really want to win and build number 2 when I don't really want to win. It's fun to play this killer depending on the mood.
Artist. Currently busy building up powerful addons for the bird. I find it funny to take perks with ravens for authenticity. I understand perfectly well that from a practical point of view, this approach may be ineffective. I made two builds. Authentic raven and aura build. I'm not sure about the usefulness of the red addon at the testing stage. The second killer in my time that can use Iron Maiden Fool's Gold. To test the minds of survivors.
Knight. He was slightly undermined by nerfs in some things. Build number 1 when I really want to win and build number 2 when I don't really want to win. I liked the old knight. I need the Exhausted status so that especially smart survivors don't run from guards during a sprint.
Unknown. I mainly use various builds on it for testing. Here, mostly variations on the theme of whether it will work and where to squeeze Lightborn when there is no desire to play against warriors of light.
But is it bad if the meta changes for both sides? I think it will be a good thing. After all, if you look closely from the 26 lobbies in my message, the survivors have the same perks. For many years, which have become boring to everyone, except maybe the most ardent supporters of the survivors. I want to note that in almost all 26 lobbies for several years I have not had gene slowdown perks. At least the killers are trying to diversify until another diverse build is nerfed at the request of the survivors. Well, in my experience, the survivors do not know how to use Unbreakable correctly.
1
