Tired of all the complaining against killers

Is it because you don't know how to apply pressure without tunneling or camping?

Truly unfortunate, my friend. The event was indeed pretty fun, and so was Dracula's release I'd say.

You're just in time for 2v8 though, if you'd like to play it!

The majority of killers are going to have a hard time stabilizing a game when you lost 60% of the objectives during the first chase. If you want to regulate how killers should act in order to give you a good experience playing, you have to reward the gameplay you want them to have.

That's on the players though. We had little trouble and if we could do it, those better than us can as well. We asked a similar question in the previous post that's relevant here: What could the devs reward that would be acceptable? What would be worth it for people to follow this gameplay?

That second paragraph has a flaw: if both sides are trying to win its down more to skill and luck rather than the perks. The killers affect the gen times via perks or pressuring survivors (via brains, powers, good ol fashioned brute force, or most likely a combination) enough while the map can either help or hinder their ability to do so. What super perk? The hookstate trade? We think it's good but we're not going to see it as super unless it completely removes a hookstate.

Here’s how it works: A team assigns a killer and faces the other team survivors, in that first set, the killer is aiming for the best possible result, being, killing every single survivor while having the most possible generators up. All 3 leagues allow face camping hook, survivors cannot free themselves even if they fill the anti camp meter.

And here's where our point is proven. See one of us actually tried a competitive tournament back in 2018 (don't remember exact date) and there were a different rules than what you stated here. Then you point that survivors being handicapped which brings multiple thoughts such as "why are people worried enough about that to install a rule?" and "these people camp this much and are supposed to be the best?" and the like. If the killer camps it's no wonder gens go fast, the killer isn't being a threat.

it’s something that shows which are the most effective strategies to achieve the best possible result and diagnoses (granted, to a degree) the current state of the game.

Maybe it's because those players rely on said strategies to much and are bluntly unable to do much else? It shows what works best for them as each and every player is different. It's a similar vein to how many killers have a "main" who they excel with and suck with others even if they're considered "high tier".

Riot games does not balance LoL based on community feelings and “have fun protocols”, they evaluate the power of each champion based on their maximum possible performance.

Here the problem is that many times we end up balancing the game based on players feelings, so when one side plays to a decent capacity, the other side (killer) has a super tough tim

{Entity damn we need to start condensing}

League is different than DBD. League is an actual competitive game, DBD is no where close. DBD has much less players than League. DBD has more ways for players to straight up make others miserable for no practical reason than League (League to its credit can make players miserable but it's atleast in a practical sense).

They could

Extra necessary objectives would be fine with us but as we've seen how much gens can possibly regress it's would be unwise to implement. Some of these can be flipped to the killer. They might have had that idea with what happens when killers utilize the strategies you say are necessary with multiple perks that make things a pain (side note: what makes survivors truly unhookable? We can only think of temporary). We thought we weren't balancing things based on "an utopian concept of people acting by the approved norms of niceness." So why add a slowdown that can be used regardless if said strategies are used or not (disregarding the fact that people sadly only did pumpkins when effectively forced and currently totems work under this same idea)

This is referring to the stats BH provided and the claims of the survivor community regarding killer strategies.

So we're unsure of what specifically your addressing here so if we missed the point we'll apologize and ask for specific things. When perks change they affect each killer differently yes but we ask why on occasions that's not enough? Since reworking takes more time and effort why not use these as stp gap measures?

I just want to “plant the seed” of: Sure, prevent slugging, prevent tunneling, but actually test out and give us something that leaves the game balanced.

We don't repeat this to be mean, we repeat this cause it seems true to us: your arguments are not doing a good job of what you're trying to do.

We're ignoring this next paragraph cause "impossible to win" is heavily untrue.

As for the math, we've stated to others that clean numbers don't work in DBD because of one important element: the human element. Humans are prone to errors, which adds unknown variables in those clean numbers.

Edit: if we missed something please let us know as I (the rulebreaker responding) have a hard time reading all that and keeping it organized on a tiny phone

You could easily prove me wrong by posting video of your killer gameplay. You always claim how easy it is to 4K as killer so there should be no shortage of clips for you to choose from.

Halloween event

All that's fine and good but detracted from your original goal of "stop complaining". Or the goalposts have been moved.

The fact that some skilled players

You were previously talking about "HAVE TO BALANCE A GAME TO WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO. Everyone, eventually, plays to get better." no? Wouldn't that concept apply here? Since it is possible to win without resorting to those strategies, should they be hampered enough wouldn't players get better eventually enough?

Survivors are naturally rewarded for cooperation, healing, and unhooking

That's due to the asymmetrical nature of the game. The team of 4 would naturally be rewarded for trying to help the group instead of the self.

Offering rewards for certain play styles would inscite some but part (ok most) of the problem is people are doing these strategies right out the gate regardless. Is it necessary to tunnel at 5 gens? No. Do people do so anyways? Yes. We've previously said sometimes they are needed but people are heavily abusing them, how would these rewards get those types to stop?

The need for camping or tunneling often reflects the balance issues within the game.

Or hear us out here, they reflect the desire to have simple ways to kill. We're pretty sure we've already spelled out the difference. Second, what causes a killer to feel forced? It's a personal thing that varies from each individual. We don't feel forced into anything if the first 3 gens pop after a chase as long as we burnt through enough resources to make the next super short. Meanwhile killer whowhatsit may feel forced if that first gen pops after 3 seconds of getting a hook.

The competitive meta has

And killers have ways to catch survivors via powers and perks to make this easier. Also you may want to pick different perks from the survivor side as those 2 only work well if the killer tunnels. Also yes, if that situation you keep describing is the best they can do, we'll happily call bad. Just because you get paid to do something doesn't mean you are always the best. Sure they might be better than us, but sitting there at the hook after first chase leaving 3 others unimpeded? Really? Not going to call that good in our life time unless some major shake ups happen. (we're getting sidetracked)

Balancing a game isn’t about preventing players from having fun

Tell us, would you play a game if it made you miserable? No pay, no fame, just in your spare time, just to play something to make yourself suffer. The game needs to balance both practical and fun aspects. We restate we agree sometimes tunneling and slugging are needed, they are unfun but valid (for lack of better words) and when used in moderation are reasonable and tolerated. But when people do so starting out, when there's no pressure (which like we said above varies from person to person) it's unreasonable to assume many are ok with their match ending in the first 5 minutes or doing nothing but crawling for effectively 4. They don't do it out of necessity, they do so cause they want to for whatever reason, malicious or not. We also realized you never talked about these types of people…thoughts on them?

Balancing based on strategic

The problem above applies here. People are using said tactics to make others miserable intentionally or not (though the slugging out the gate is a pretty good indicator of the former). You'd be giving more tools to those who don't (admittedly a YAY from us) do this while simultaneously not keeping these in check.

Asking to attend both sides equally?

Your not really asking that though. From what we've seen it's: "everyone stop whining to nerf killer" to "survivors can win anytime they want as long as they all work for it" to "comp shows why tunneling and slugging are needed" to "let's get back to topic (which credit is due, you tried)" to "*mental snap* start complaining" to next is what we can only sum as a mashup of things to now which is "find ways to reduce these strategies while simultaneously defending them and explaining thought process (including math)". This is all filtered through our doggy brains mind you but it seems accurate enough.

The human element is to point out that trying to use math to work out things here is useless at best. As someone above said, it's not Bhvr's math as they only put up kill rates as far as we know. Kill rate isn't equal to win rate (per the definition your using is 3k+). We maybe lazy but again, it's not what you were doing in any meaningful capacity. And one pot shot deserves another, the last time you said you were done you came back within 24 hours.

The games problem is much more nuanced and complex, then many players give it credit:

pre 6.1 killers was at its worst in sheer player experience. Most survivors had multiple levels of safety nets and old DH was so busted that nearly no one left the house without it, and it was so soulcrushing to do a good play on a survivor, but then "nah nah nah, did you really outplay when I can do this?" and dashed away, laughing in "skill issues".

Then the 6.1 patch pulled the rug out from under the collective survivor population and bereft of their most potent survivla tool, that many had started to rely on in a true crutch way, many survivors fell into a stupor. It really was as if nearly no one could play the game anymore, survivors ran around like headless chicken and many were too scared to even touch gens. I vividly remember that it felt like an all you can kill buffet, and in the games I played as survivor, there were matches were I finished 4 gens from start to finish, because everyone else was just too frigging scared to touch them.

It wasn't helped by the fact that many killers struck back with a vengeance and fell on the helpless survivor population without mercy. The stupor held on for two days, then many survivors started adapting, and adapting they did. They learned that, in order to survive, they had to stop wasting time and be efficient. This adverse conditions bread into the survivor population to split up and do gens seperately, and to at least pay a modicum of attention to the main gen and gen spread, while not doing too many totems or chests, if any at all.

Gens soon started flying off the shelfs and killers now really had to show what they got, but for a short while the game felt really fresh and fun. But new DH turned out just slightly less obnoxious then the old one and killers discovered that they had to defend their gens with all they got, so Overbrine and Eruption became the new killer meta, driving survivors nuts and pushing them towards gen efficiency and rushing even further.

Eventually all this tools were nerfed on both sides, but the damage was done: both sides had learned to play as efficiently as possible and to trim all unnecessary fat from their playstyles - all that was left were lean and mean surviving and killing machiens. You can change the game around survivors and players, but you can't make them unlearn what they learned during this times of suffering.

And thats were we stand now: both sides feel like they are backed against the wall before the game even begins, both sides have learned the most efficient ways to play to game and increase their chances and both sides basically optimised fun out of the equation. The game is often cited as a "fun party game about killers and survivors", but eh, its as competitive as ever, with the MMR system forcing survivors to play consistently well, unless they want to drop down into MMR hell (that happened to me once).

What could help to revitalize the game were a real and true health chapter: there is so much skill bloat, maybe it would be good to reevalute a lot of the skills, turn some into general perks and only give each survivor and killer only two perks. Also BHVR should think more about restrictions: while it was always a fun design choice to not limit builds, it now severely limits design space. Caps on certain maximum values like repair speed or limits on how many perks of a certain category could be taken would help to streamline certain aspects of the game. If we could only use one repair perk, maybe we could give them all a bit more interesting and unique additional effects. And with killer perks, one of the big limiters will always be Nurse: "this fun perk for Trapper will be utterly broken on Nurse, so we will artificially power it down" … Awakened Awareness could never show its real potential, because Nurse, just zooming off after a hook, was just too broken - so why not ban the perk on Nurse and Blight and thus free up design space for all the other killers?

Incentivice survivors to do gens together and give killers a true incentive to not rush the killing, but having it in their best intrest to spead hooks and not kill a survivor early, would help to give everyone time to play and time to shine. Maybe even set up a director AI like in many horde shooter style games, but instead of spawning specials according to how well the players do, let the Entity block gens or eat good pallets if the survivors are too good, and let it respawn a pallet or set up a medkit in the corner the survivor is hiding. Don't listen to the "hur dur why should they be rewarded for playing badly?" crowd, but give it a try.

By going back and redesigning a couple of the games basic rules and setting up other hard and fast limits, it would elevate the game play so much.

I am sorry for you regulars :D But I honestly think that this is what happened … sadly this isn't a short throwaway easy answer like "hurdur killers tunnel because its the easiest and most braindead strategy and playing killer is piss easy these days".

BTW, not implaying that you would ever say something like this, I know that you guys are about the most levelheaded peeps around.

ohh we don't mind hearing it again and again cause it is effectively what happened, we just want cookies for it~
Though us being called level headed is new…cookie worthy it is